Cracks and issues happening after RSJ installation

We are having our kitchen and dining room knocked into one.

The wall separating them is the original outside wall of the house.

Two RSJ have been fitted and signed off by building control however we are now starting to experience some issues upstairs above the RSJ.

There are cracks appearing on the landing

There are cracks all around the top of the walls in the bathroom

Bathroom tiles above the bath have become loose

The bath is starting to make a clunk when you shift your weight around.

All the floor boards are creaking too.

Is this normal ? Settling after steels being fitted or should we be concerned

Builder hasnt finished yet so I will speak to him when he comes back on Friday.

Just don’t want to be fobbed off.

Our neighbours did something similar, and mentioned a little movement, the neighbour is a tradesman and did the work himself to a very good quality. He said some movement can be expected…. not sure if 3rd hand info helps?

You could expect some cracking but the photo of the crack up to the architrave looks quite substantial.
Did he use plenty of acros?

Also, where he inserted the RSJs, did he use a whizzer to cut out the bricks or just smash them out?

From my limited experience, the xalcs for the RSJ are done as if it magically appears there. The trick is getting it in place without stuff sagging in the mean time.

The house will move with the new load path where the beam deflects there used to be a wall beneath so some cracking in finishes is to be expected.  However it sounds like there has been a fair bit of movement in your case.

It’s difficult to assess form photos etc, I presume an engineer sized the beams, it may be worth their thoughts on the matter.  Can you see how much the beams are deflecting?  Span/250 is a good rule of thumb for the permanent and variable loads on the beam for brittle finishes.

Hopefully its just the house settling to its new form.  Builder and engineers opinion first then you may need an independent opinion on it.

A similar thing happened to mine. Well supported when being put in, wedged up, slightly more than the previous level. Looked great for 3 months. Then, sat in the bath one night, a big bang, and the bath dropped maybe 8mm.
It felt like 300mm when I was sat in it.
Clearly the floor level had dropped slightly. No obvious cracks to the wall though.

Onzadog – if enough strongboys are well placed then installing a beam is pretty straightforward, we had the corner of the house held up on them when we did the extension. Some minor cracking post installation but only cosmetic.

I may have self checked the beam design a dozen times or more though 🙂

It is quite common to get some settlement, but perhaps get a professional to take a look just in case.

When you put a beam in, the load that wall was taking and spreading across the foundation of the removed wall becomes a point load, for an old external wall that will likely include floor and roof loadings etc. There are many variables ie type of ground built on, but it is not uncommon for the foundations to need more support where those loads become bearing.

So, when the beam was put in, did the building contractor discuss anything like that with you? dig down to the foundations and take a look? Employ a structural engineer to make the calculations?

Employ a structural engineer to make the calculations?

Unlikely you’ll get a warrent without that for a supporting wall.

Fwiw we have done similar . Cosmetic crack occured but mostly because we jacked the roof up as hard as we could before we inserted and supportes the rsjs to combat this happening down the line.

My tame builder who has done this countless times over 30 years in the business said at the time the most common issue he’s seen from.others doing this type of work is being shy with the acros at the start. And even at that it’s unlikely to be more than initial movement. But worth getting boots on the ground for a second opinion

We have had no subsequent movement.

Same for ours during an extension build, external wall from kitchen was removed and new steels in, all calculated by structural engineer, as others have said when we checked aftrwards we were reassured it’s common.

We had a couple of walls removed and steels installed. I mentioned to the builder as they were doing it that an upstairs door was now sticking. He told me to go back and check it while he jacked up the acros a bit more and to shout Ok when it was back to how it was.

I was told years ago that unless you can get your hand in the crack, there wasn’t much to worry about. I looked at buying a barn conversion years ago where the bearing pads for the main roof RSJ were starting to go – that did look a bit worrying.

We got an RSJ installed when we knocked through an internal load bearing wall. Had a bit of settlement upstairs, mostly cracking in the lime based plaster and a sticky door. 2.5 years later it’s still fine.

To be honest I’m surprised nobody told you to expect settlement. That architrave doesn’t look particularly concerning either as it’s just a plaster/styrene mould held on with adhesive. But as said, get a second opinion in if you’re concerned.

As long as the cracks don’t continue to grow and arrest and certainly don’t open up wider then you’re OK. We had this when we had our extension…just left it for a couple of years to make sure the cracking stopped, and when it had filled in the cracks and painted over.

This is the amount of acros he used

This is the beams installed

This is the beams covered

When a beam is so high up almost into the floor space or roof space above it hard to tell if the shoring did a good enough job or the beam has full contact with the the brickwork as it would be a struggle to pin it with slate or fill any void with mortar
Needles above the beams would have been more costly with more repairs and reinstating
It probably won’t get any worse as the beams look ok but if you chip off the plaster at the crack you may see the bed of brickwork with a gap

Are the RSJ’s the wrong size?

Is that expanding foam on top of the RSJs?
+1 @redmex

Don’t think it’s expanding foam. I’m sure there was a small gap between the beam and the original outer brickwork that was filled with slate and some stick resin stuff.

All been signed off by building control.

The used to pack the top of the RSJ by hammering in slate, to take up any slack with the brick work being propped up. I had heard they now used a cement which expanded as it set, to try and minimise any movement. We have some minor cracks at the top of doorways in the wall above our RSJ. Probably only takes a mm or two movement to crack modern plaster. The old lime mortar will accommodate a lot of movement as it never sets.

The used to pack the top of the RSJ by hammering in slate, to take up any slack with the brick work being propped up.

That’s how I had it specified in the past. I’ve done two major ones, one on existing wall, one on new brick piers tied into the old walls.

Both I whacked in more slate than I thought possible, every nook and cranny. Then as sloppy a mortar as I could get away with to hold it all in place.

15 years later i know one of the home owners and it’s gone nowhere.

Cement that expands that sounds like a failed Dragons Den idea
Cement mixed with sand or aggregate shrinks when drying that’s why concrete should be covered in warm windy weather, the stronger or wetter the mix the more shrinkage

Cement that expands that sounds like a failed Dragons Den idea

I heard it second hand from a colleague who was having one done and apparently he’d been told that. Can’t believe it’s that difficult to create a custom mix which expands as it sets, but whether they use it, no idea. Last RSJ I had fitted was 20+ years ago and that was packed with slate.

Slate was traditionally used, something sqashed by a Welsh mountain is pretty uncompressible
but as it is naturally occuring and can possibly vary itcannot be given a number for the structural number crunchers to work with so dry packing a sand/cement mix was used instead.

I dont know what the end of the steels are resting on can’t make it out on my tiny screen, but we would often put up shuttering and cast an in situ lintel, engineering brick was also an option, depended on the BS sometimes…

If the supporting walls had footings rather than a foundation some underpinning was not uncommon depending on the loads involved etc.

Whatever was holding up the exixting Joists ws probably not a flat as the RSJ and they would require packing I suspect to keep the floor above in the same position

you are always going to get cracks but doors and windows not operating are cause for investigation for shure

Pretty sure two courses of engineering bricks are mandated, they were when we had one fitted 20 years ago and also when we built the workshop more recently.

For the one in the house, the builder dug down and re-inforced the footings of both pillars. Being Victorian, our house doesn’t actually have concrete foundations, it just rests on a wider brick pad sat just beneath the surface.

Bump. On the basis that I’m going through some rsj related work at the moment and may well be useful for this thread to still be open.

On an industrial level where we have installed steel beams into an existing structure, the beams have been installed as tight as possible to the brick / concrete work as possible. They have then been dry packed using steel shims .
After that , they have been shuttered with ply strips ,and the gap filled with a Non-Shrink Epoxy grout.
The same stuff we put under a steel column (column sat on 100mm square pack placed in the centre). Shuttering installed up to height of the bottom of base plate and grout poured in. This ensures load is spread over total area of base plate.

On the basis that I’m going through some rsj related work at the moment and may well be useful for this thread to still be open.

Not a lot to be said really…. if the RSJ’s are sized and fitted properly then you’ll be good.
Don’t expect to be crack free afterwards though – even a 1mm drop can open a corresponding crack at the wall/ceiling joint above.
Take lots of pictures of the steel installation.

@funkrodent Things to watch for:

The temporary support should be as solid as possible. Not just the number of Acrows, but look for opportunities for movement; bottom of the acrows on solid floor, acrows tight, needles stiff enough and spanning no further than necessary, top surface of needles tight to brick not mortar, etc. Ideally I’d want the centre of the span pushed up a millimetre or two.

New beams should also have a solid load path, proper bearing pads (might need engineer calculation or inspection to know if the wall and foundation below are adequate) and as above, well packed between the beam and the wall above it.

Thanks all, much appreciated! Steel is now in, set onto padstones at either end. Packed with slate and grouted (I think). I’ll take some pics.

Cheers

Hi, I just wondered a couple of years on how things are now with the work and cracks? I ask as we had an RSJ installed (approx 5m) 4 months ago and we have noticed quite a number of cracks appearing. It was all signed off by building control but now I’m starting to worry a little

All your answers are in the replies above, I’ve seen quite a few RSJ’s go in and there is always settlement, as one poster said, its realignment with a new load path. I doubt you have anything to worry about.

Hi, I just wondered a couple of years on how things are now with the work and cracks? I ask as we had an RSJ installed (approx 5m) 4 months ago and we have noticed quite a number of cracks appearing. It was all signed off by building control but now I’m starting to worry a little

Masonry has massive compressive strength and near-zero in tension (unlike say wood, metal, polymers etc) and undergoes very little deformation. What that means in practice is if 2 bits of your house move 1mm apart, you tend to get a 1mm crack. Apart from roof trusses, very little of the house is built to work in tension. So a crack (which obviously isn’t transmitting any tension) isn’t a problem on it’s own.

Conversely, the bits you should worry about are where things are crumbling/sinking/being compressed, that’s the point where it’s going beyond it’s design.

….. Or they could just be the skim drying out.

I have the same problem