Court witness question

Bit of a strange one, but my mrs is on the cusp of a panic attack so I’m trying to allay her fears!

A couple of months ago, her and 4 friends were witnesses at an incident in and next to a pub. As far as I’m aware, they are the only witnesses apart from 2 other people who are the victims of the incident. The police were called and took witness statements from the 5 girls.

2 people have been arrested and charged since then. We don’t know what the charges are but based on the incident it could range from breach of the peace to attempted murder!

Yesterday my mrs gets a citation through the door telling her to attend court as a witness in this case.

She’s on the verge of a breakdown. I actually doubt the lawyers will be able to even get her to speak if she’s called up as she’s absolutely terrified by it all. The idea of public speaking absolutely terrifies her, then pile on the fact it’s in a court.

Not trying to get out it, but with 5 witnesses, who are all going to recall the same story, surely they wont call them all individually? I’ve never been involved in anything like this but something in my head says the prosecution will ask the defence to accept that all these witnesses will give the same account, therefore accept their previous statements as evidence, or one of them only has to testify and the rest are accepted as being the same. Or will they likely have to all get up there and speak?

I’ve done it a couple of times.

First time he changed his plea to guilty at the last minute and I didn’t have to do anything.

Second time there was an admin cockup, the case was dismissed, she got away with it, and I didn’t have to do anything.

Not much to worry about with public speaking, if it’s a magistrate’s court (E&W) or Sheriff in Scotland there will be very few people there. The lawyers aren’t the shouty tyres you see on telly, just tell the court what you saw and that’s that. The clerk of the court will show you around when you arrive, give you brief explanation of what to expect and answer any questions.

Witnesses will be called one at a time. You won’t be allowed to see the ones before you. Afterwards you can either leave or sit in the public gallery and watch, which can be interesting. As above, the gallery is likely to be almost empty, couple of family members and the chap from the local paper at most, you said she doesn’t like public speaking, I’d be surprised if she’s speaking in front of more than ten people altogether.

I’ve been called again for a case in October, that was adjourned from May.

There is a LOT of sitting around doing nothing though, take a good book!

Never been to a county court (well, not a criminal one, did a civil one, just me and the judge in a room, the other guy never showed up so I won without doing anything, although that was for my employer rather than a personal thing)

Firstly

my mrs gets a citation

Is it Scotland or E&W? I have no experience of how witnesses are treated in Scotland although i have testified up there.

Not trying to get out it, but with 5 witnesses, who are all going to recant the same story, surely they wont call them all individually? I’ve never been involved in anything like this but something in my head says the prosecution will ask the defence to accept that all these witnesses will give the same account, therefore accept their previous statements as evidence, or one of them only has to testify and the rest are accepted as being the same. Or will they likely have to all get up there and speak?

That’s a bit how long is a piece of string, unfortunately.

It could be the case folds without any witnesses giving evidence – a guilty plea or the case dropped.

The facts could be agreed and no witnesses required

It could be the defence decide to test the evidence and call each witness to explore any discrepancies in their testimony.

It could be every one is called but after one witness the defence decide that is enough as it doesn’t aid them get the same thing aired by five witnesses.

It could be the prosecution decide to get one witness to testify to give the jury a flavour of the case (this is not supposed to happen if evidence is agreed ).

As you can see there are a lot of permutations.

The witness  summons should have details of the Witness services who can also advise on the matter and has she been in touch with the witness liaison officer in the case (or the officers who took the statement) all should be able to offer some advice. But your wife (and this is no criticism) should not ignore it or not turn up – that will cause a lot more issues.

I fully understand that it can appear stressful to your wife and it would be wrong to say it’s easy but as a member of the public she won’t get a hard time or shouted at – that’s saved for professional witnesses 😉 – and the judge / bench should guide her and be sympathetic to her stress as well.

Is it Scotland

Yeah

I suspect the general principles will still apply. There’s a few BBC programmes of trials in Scotland which show the general air of court proceedings (but they are all murders) and how “relaxed”  / non- confrontational they are.

There is a LOT of sitting around doing nothing though, take a good book!

Yes, my one trip to court in Edinburgh ended up as a four day stay up there!

It is possible to give evidence via a video link (I was on the jury for the first time this was allowed in a Scottish court). It might be possible to request this as an option.

There is a decent likelihood that the 2 will plead guilty when all 5 witnesses turn up at court. You may be surprised at the differences that 5 people who observed the exact same thing can actually produce. The statements may all be close to identical but in court, the lawyers may ask differing questions of the 5 to build a fuller picture. She’ll be fine, as I presume you’ve reassured her. It is normal to be ‘bricking it’ prior to court as a witness…daft as that is as you can pnly state what you know and saw/heard. Best wishes to her, hope she doesn’t get too wound up by it all

I got mugged a decade ago and had to pick the guy out of a video line up.

I got a bit panicky for a few days after because he and his mates were local to where I was living.

He ended up pleading guilty and going to prison, no court appearances needed.

https://www.scotcourts.gov.uk/coming-to-court/witnesses/

May be of use.

Been called to court a couple of times as a witness. As a former city centre pub/bar manager, it was often me and or staff who were witnesses to events.

As has been stated above, first time we were quite nervous as the 2 blokes were charged with affray (serious offence I believe) as they’d clobbered a police officer after we’d had to call them, and they had a rather large, unfriendly family group in and around court, however, reality was 6 hours of hanging around in the court building to then be told they’d taken a plea on a lesser assault offence so we weren’t needed.

2nd occasion it was only 2 hours of waiting before the guy accepted his charge – apparently our CCTV was so good there was no denying the events or his actions! The defence has tried to bargain it down but to no success. And a good job too, cos that fella was a proper wrong-un.

There is a decent likelihood that the 2 will plead guilty when all 5 witnesses turn up at court

this is quite common, plead not guilty and wait and see if the witnesses turn up. Change plea when they do

Following as ive got to attend to give a statement in October. The guy and his mate broke into my house and i caught them (fight ensured). Hes sat on remand.

Im concerned that they know its me testifying and that they also know my address so retribution is easily possible.

She might get called, but might not. I’ve been a witness to 1 thing that had me spend a morning sitting in the Sheriff court waiting room before being let go without being called.

Im concerned that they know its me testifying and that they also know my address so retribution is easily possible.

Possibly, but they also now know that you are not an easy target, you know who they are, and they are likely to be caught so may avoid you as a result

Bob,

Andrewh is right – but the court also recognises that for many people giving evidence is a scary experience so will do what it can to make that smooth for your wife.

If there’s 7 witnesses, and the 5 “independent” witnesses all say almost exactly the same thing in their witness statement it would be unusual to call them all.  But if all 7 witness statements agree it probably won’t actually run as a trial.  The defence may hold out to the trial date in the hope that the key witnesses don’t turn up, or the crown screw up.  Even if the trial stats, the procurator fiscal may not bother using all the witnesses.  They will be unlikely to excuse your wife at this stage as they may want her as a fall back in case someone else fails to show or gives incoherent evidence.  But there should be contact details on the citation where she can call and share her concerns.  If there’s a compelling reason then there are special arrangements for “vulnerable witnesses” – such as screens, video links, having a friendly face sitting close etc.   Those things need to be agreed in advance – so again call the number of there is a real concern.  If its Sheriff / High Court then on the day there will be someone from Victim/Witness service there to support you and answer questions etc.  If she needs a glass of water, a rest, a sit down etc she should just ask the presiding judge – they want coherent evidence so will usually agree to anything that avoids confrontation, blubbing witnesses etc.  If she can’t remember the details she can just say so.  Its likely the prosecutor will then offer her a copy of her statement which she can read and “adopt”.  She should know in advance if she will be expected to do a “dock id” (and archaic practice – but unlikely to be used if there is actually a debate about the identity).  If she can’t identify the accused, or for example can’t remember which one did what, then nobody will criticise her for being honest.

My one word of warning would be not to assume its all done and dusted on the first trail date.  It may or may not help her to think that there’s probably a good chance she turns up and new dates are set anyway.

First, it’s not an option if you are called, not turning up is a big no no.

But times are different now and witnesses are better looked after.

I’ve done it once – a mate was attacked after a football game. I only had a fleeting look at the attacker but was still called as a witness. We’d left the ground after a game and a group of lads came up behind us and starting kicking our heels as we walked. I briefly turned around and saw there were a few of them and said nothing, turned round and kept walking, mate said something and got punched in the face for his troubles and then they legged it.

He gave a statement as did I (mine was basically that) and we thought no more of it, and then we were called for a ID parade. It was nothing like the (joke) ones you see in comedies – one scrawny lad and seven 6 foot men with beards, and I genuinely couldn’t pick out the guy from the 8 near identical looking guys, but all I could tell the presiding officer was that I couldn’t pick one but they all could have been (bit shorter than me, scrawny, ethnicity, etc.)

My mate apparently picked him instantly, had a distinct facial feature that i hadn’t seen when i quickly looked around, that when it was included in his statement made the police go ‘ah yeah, we know him’

On trial day, me and mate were collected from separate trains and taken to police station for discussion with CPS solicitor who told us (individually, of course) what would happen and what she would ask us. It went to trial, we both gave evidence (him first so I don’t know what he said until after) and then me and I basically just described as above. His defence and his mates evidence all seemed to rest on me not being able to pick him from a line up, but it was pretty clearly him and he got convicted. I didn’t stay for sentencing and headed home but mate stayed to the end and the magistrate said basically that when comparing the reliability of the prosecution and defence witnesses, it was clear one group were lying to an agreed version, and that mate and me had differing accounts but that were reliable and consistent in the crossover.

The actual experience – I felt a bit like your wife, and there was quite a few of them in the courts giving you evil eye I won’t lie, but it was all just bluster. I didn’t stay long at the court, went from nearby police station to the courts. Because we were out of town (it was an away game vs West Brom, we were living in Reading at the time) we did all the statements remotely – I gave mine to the village bobby, Dad of my old school mate! We were ferried from trains (tickets bought for us on separate trains) to the nearby police station so I literally was taken to court just in time for my appearance so i didn’t have to sit in waiting rooms. Maybe that is an option, if she is worried about that?

If it was you that got beaten up/attempted murder then you would want any witnesses to turn up.

I might not have put as succinctly as sniff, but that was my thoughts too. When police don’t have resources to investigate on the occasion that they do it is really on us to support them and the CPS

It must be really worrying,  but all it takes for evil to prosper is for good people to do nothing.

If it was you that got beaten up/attempted murder then you would want any witnesses to turn up.

I’m very mindful of details here, but the 2 victims are apparently denying anything happened to them. I don’t believe they want the reason for the accused’s visit to be known to the authorities if you get my drift

If it was you that got beaten up/attempted murder then you would want any witnesses to turn up.

A very logical statement that will unfortunately have no impact on the anxiety of OPs wife, and indeed it is quite likely that stating such a thing would have the opposite of desired effect.

I’m very mindful of details here, but the 2 victims are apparently denying anything happened to them. I don’t believe they want the reason for the accused’s visit to be known to the authorities if you get my drift

Ah, well particularly in Scotland its not their choice whether to “press charges” or not.  It does mean that (a) its more likely the case collapses without hearing any evidence (if they don’t turn up, and the PF knows they are going to give poor evidence anyway); (b) it might take a few trial dates to get to that decision; (c) if it does go ahead that more of the “5” will actually be required to give evidence to get the weight of the truth out there.

a rather large, unfriendly family group in and around court,

Bob, reassure your wife that if she is feeling intimidated by anyone in the court building she should speak to the court officer (member of staff who will show her where the waiting room is) or the witness services people – they will make sure the prosecutor and presiding judge are aware!  There’s still police around most Scottish courts and they will welcome something to break up the monotony.

Im concerned that they know its me testifying and that they also know my address so retribution is easily possible.

Whilst entirely understandable, actually acting on this stuff is not common.  For Mrs Bob – they won’t know her address – she will be described as “care of Police Scotland”.

Thanks all. She’s calmed down a bit. All of her and her friends will be there on the day to give evidence so hopefully this prompts the defence to change the plea to avoid them having to get involved.

I’ll report back after and give you the details on the incident as it’s absolutely insane what happened!