By eleven to one apparently.

Looks like Johnson, Pretty Vacant and Jenrick were the ones who were actually on trial. This is as much a verdict on the newly introduced legislation as it was for the actual charge.

Aquitted*

Yes, I wondered why there was no thread on this.

Interesting times and good on them.

Edit: Yes, Priti must be fuming.😀

Mao and cultural revolution come to mind.
Next target will be “idols”.

Aquitted*

Colston* as well I think 😀

But pleased about the outcome.

Sticking up for slavers is never a good look

Doesn’t look like the culture war they started is going how they planned, does it?

chewkw
Free Member
Mao and cultural revolution come to mind.

Quiet a statement, sounds like you need to spend a few hours on wiki.

Quiet a statement, sounds like you need to spend a few hours on wiki.

There are certainly some similarities like the communists/marxists who destroyed all the religious statues that they considered idols and symbolised a belief they do not agree with.

^^ And… The human cost…?

^^ And… The human cost…?

If they keep repeating the past they will never move forward. History is history.
Slavery in China only stopped in the late 50s but the emancipation of women is a credit to Mao.
Nowadays in China if you do not belong to the party you are not one of them and hence need to follow their order/command.

Yes… Pulling down a statue of a slave trader definitely sounds like ‘Year Zero’ 😂

Yes… Pulling down a statue of a slave trader definitely sounds like ‘Year Zero’ 😂

Just another piece of history.

At least in the West you read about the reason for their action, in China is completely wipe out of history and that’s the “true” year zero. There can only be one idol and that is Mao.

You know what chewkw, I’m sure it’s a good one but I’m never quite sure what point you’re trying to make

Well, I’m very proud of Bristol today.

Next target will be “idols”.

I know they’re loud and shouty, but that’s a bit harsh!

Doesn’t look like the culture war they started is going how they planned, does it?

I’m not entirely sure who this is actually aimed at? Who’s ’culture war’?

You know what chewkw, I’m sure it’s a good one but I’m never quite sure what point you’re trying to make

Ask the people of HK how they feel about the “statue of liberty” being taken down from HK University campus and the monument to Tiananmen incident.

I know they’re loud and shouty, but that’s a bit harsh!

Harsh?
What if the slave traders loudly proclaimed themselves to be religious of being “good” Christians?
Does that mean the religion is to be blamed after this? The statue of Chris should be taken down because those slave traders proclaimed themselves to be Christians?

Chew, you are now saying how different China is to the West? I think?

So it’s similar when you want it to be, different when you don’t?

I think you are desperately stretching here to make an imaginary point.

Actually, chewkw does make a valid point – now that the true face of Chinese political rule is being revealed in HK, anything that is seen to celebrate a political point of view contrary to that of the Party is removed. And that includes people, not just monuments.

Harsh?
What if the slave traders loudly proclaimed themselves to be religious of being “good” Christians?

Chewkw, that’s a pop-culture reference that has obviously gone over your head; Idols are a loud, political post-punk band from Bristol.

Ask the people of HK how they feel about the “statue of liberty” being taken down from HK University campus and the monument to Tiananmen incident.

You genuinely don’t see the difference? Sigh…

I’m out.

I’m not entirely sure who this is actually aimed at? Who’s ’culture war’?

The Tory’s culture war. It’s backfiring massively as it doesn’t appeal to anyone outside their hardcore base

Let’s not forget last summer, before the Euros, when Boris and Priti and co absolutely slated the young England football players for making political statements in taking the knee.

Then they furiously backtracked as it went down like a lead balloon, until we ended up with the truly vomit-inducing and laughably implausible hypocrisy of this…

👏🏽👏🏽👏🏽 Just brilliant. Well done #ThreeLions

Football’s coming home 🏴󠁧󠁢󠁥󠁮󠁧󠁿 pic.twitter.com/dch8wdj8jL

— Priti Patel MP (@pritipatel) July 7, 2021

Chew, you are now saying how different China is to the West? I think?

So it’s similar when you want it to be, different when you don’t?

I think you are desperately stretching here to make an imaginary point.

No different to China during the cultural revolution albeit in China they were brutal.
No, I can say that they are very similar.
Not stretching the imaginary point here and by the time we really feel it, it will be too late good or bad.

You genuinely don’t see the difference? Sigh…
I’m out.

Yes, slavery, discrimination, racism etc are wrong but this is not the way to do it. Brute force is very similar to CCP.

The Tory’s culture war.

Ah, right, I’m following you now, it wasn’t entirely clear who you were referring to. Thanks for that.

Chewkw – I think BoJo and his culture war crew are closer to the cultural revolution types than the Coulston 4 are. But we are all entitled to an opinion of course.

Chewkw – I think BoJo and his culture war crew are closer to the cultural revolution types than the Coulston 4 are. But we are all entitled to an opinion of course.

China’s Gang of 4 remember? LOL!

I see the similarity – it’s 4 innit?

Or the SDP’s Gang of Four if you have the memory.

I see the similarity – it’s 4 innit?

4 is the unlucky number according to some Chinese beliefs.

13 is a good number.

They were lucky enough today mind.

When the Government decided to introduce an up to ten year sentence for defacing statues they may have temporarily forgotten that we have jury trials in this country.

By bringing imto force new legislation that was specifically triggered by an event that itself had not yet gone through due process, the Government was seeking to set an example but in fact what they were doing was trying to influence the verdict. That they did, though not in the way they thought they would!

The government’s culture war is on its knees now.

A bad verdict IMHO. They should have been found guilty but given a token sentence.

The defence’s demand that the jury be on the ‘right side of history’ is a chilling threat out of the Maoist playbook.

@inkster they weren’t charged with that.

@igm – where does it end then? Not many street names, statues and buildings could survive a screening for sin conducted by these woke tribunals.

And for those who see this verdict as a green light for political vandalism I suggest that they, like our government, are forgetting that we have trial by Jury in this country.

The verdict set by this jury does not set a precident, it was a verdict applied to a very specific case in a very specific set of circumstances. Circumstances relating both to Coulston and to the perceived pressure being applied upon the case by the government with their rather presumptuous new legislation. In effect, the Government have put themselves on trial with this one.

I scoff cake…..

Of course they weren’t charged with that technically but due to the hastily introduced new laws a perception had been created (deliberately).

The jury knew that the Government had implemented new legislation that had only been bought about because of a specific event that they, as jurors, were about to pass judgement on.

Some of the jury might have seen the government’s actions as trying to influence this verdict? so consequently they saw as an opportunity to tell the Government to f*** off and wait for due process to play out.

Had the Government let that due process play out before bringing in the new legislation, there might have been a different verdict, or at least a more even jury split.

Had they waited and a guilty verdict been passed down, say a simple criminal damage conviction combined with a token fine (which would not have been unexpected), then the Government may have felt emboldened to introduce harsher legislation.

Had they not interfered and a not guilty verdict passed, then the Government may have been able to see that introducing harsh new legislation may not be such a good idea after all, as a future jury in a future case may not see things in quite the same way as the Government would like them to see things.

As I said before, all the Government succeeded in doing with this one is put themselves on trial.

It’s not a woke tribunal, its a jury trial! (You’re making Chewkw look sensible now.)

“Where does it all end?” you ask?

“Not with a bang, but a whimper”,.(I’d suggest..)

@inkster – I’m speaking for the people who would condemn monuments and street names for extra-legal eradication, i.e, these 4 people, for example.

Statues are not “history” – taking down a statue does not “erase history”. As mentioned above, plenty of examples of genuine attempts to erase history – a small (but visible) part of which is removing statues. But this is not that – and trying to claim so is a bit strange.

History will show that Mr Smith did A, B and C, and that he had a statue in X location for Y years, but it was removed in 2020 for Z reason.

IMO, statues are a celebration of a person or event – literally putting them on a pedestal.

I think it’s ok to say that, at the time the statue was erected, this person WAS celebrated….. but since then, attitudes have changed, and he is no longer celebrated and so the statue is taken down and replaced why one of somebody who people are celebrating.

I actually think this process is essential for the UK to come to terms with some of the **** – up shit that it’s done, and interestingly, the toppling of the Colston statue has triggered a review of all the historical monuments in Bristol to (hopefully) this end

where does it end then? Not many street names, statues and buildings could survive a screening for sin conducted by these woke tribunals.

I think it’s possible to find some sensible middle ground – and where the decision is made to leave a statue up/a building being named over somebody with problematic aspects to their history – perhaps some greater efforts to acknowledge that aspect would calm people down a bit.

Kind of like this (from wiki):

In 2018, a Bristol City Council project to add a second plaque to better contextualise the statue and summarise Colston’s role in the slave trade resulted in an agreed wording and a cast plaque ready for installation. Its installation was vetoed in March 2019 by Bristol’s mayor, Marvin Rees, who promised a rewording of the plaque which never materialised.

Interesting that the Mayor vetoed the plaque’s wording as it failed to adequately describe Colston’s role in the Bristol slave trade.

I see cake is here with his “woke tribunals” and “Maoists” thanks for taking time away from the daily heil comments section.

Statues are not “history”

They aren’t not history either. They mark something in the context of its time and what was happening at that time. So history. The one in question was to mark his philanthropy,, which is undeniable. The source of the money was certainly odious but does that erase the positive acts?
It’s interesting to contrast this with the guy that beheaded Thatcher. The judge in his first trial said that his defence, which was very similar to this one, would only be valid if he or his son were directly affected by the ‘wrongs’ of Thatcher. He was found guilty at a second trial. This verdict is wrong in law, and sets a dangerous trend. I’m pretty sure the people who overran the Capitol building in the US a year ago felt they were on the right side of history. There is no doubt that stop and search is racist, so if folks decide to resist by thumping coppers in a coma, would they be acquited for being on the right side of history? I’m pretty certain that insulate britain will turn out to be on the right side of history but the vitriol directed at them, including by some on here, would not see a trial go their way. Mob rule is mob rule and it never ends well. They were guilty by their own admission. Mitigation should go to sentencing.
I wonder what the verdict would have been if they were less articulate and less white.

woke tribunals

/credibility

You are Lozza Fox and ICMFP.