Challenging a cashpoint withdrawal

Just before xmas I had a cashpoint fail on me. Couldn’t go into the branch (Nationwide) as it wasn’t open at the time.

FirstDirect (my bank) refunded the money, but then a month later then deducted the money that they’d refunded.

The letter states they’d (FD) completed the investigation and the branch (Nationwide) said there was no cash machine malfunction or discrepancy.

Anyone experienced this?

Can’t really see what options I have if Nationwide just claim it didn’t happen and First Direct say there’s nothing else they can do.

It was £150 so not really wanting to just let it go, but can’t see I have much of a case if it’s just my word against theirs?

There must be some kind of log by the machine…. I’d want to see that.

Yes, there will be logs, but doesn’t seem like it should be my job to be trying to extract details from a bank I’m not with. I’d expect my own bank to be taking it up and challenging it on my behalf, so wondering if that’s the first line of complaint?

Could the machine have been compromised?

I’d expect my own bank to be taking it up and challenging it on my behalf, so wondering if that’s the first line of complaint?

But it seems they have already done that and are satisfied.

I’d be asking FD to see what they have seen that has lead to their satisfaction.

When you say failed, what do you mean?

Contact FirstDirect again and ask them to provide you with the evidence they used to conclude that there was no cash machine malfunction or discrepancy. They should have a record of the ATM transactions and the reconciliation process. You can also request a copy of the letter they received from Nationwide.

Failed as in got as far as accepting card, pin number and instructions, released card (all very very slowly), then when it should have given out the cash, just closed down with a ‘machine out of order’ message.

I’d be asking FD to see what they have seen that has lead to their satisfaction.

That’s really the crux of it. I’d like to know if anyone else has had this issue and did they resolve through their pushing their own bank or having to personally pursue it with the branch/bank that states there was no issue.

https://www.financial-ombudsman.org.uk/ – quick look on there suggests CCTV footage can be used to prove whether a withdrawal has been made or not. Sounds like an option to pursue.

Thanks morgans, that’s a good shout.

I have seen the financial obudsman advice desperatebicycle, but does sound like pretty extreme lengths to go.

Will be pushing back with my own bank first

Thanks

Good luck. Like the bloody bank would miss £150! Arseholes.

Good luck. Like the bloody bank would miss £150! Arseholes.

It’s probably cost more in admin to investigate it. Assuming they have.

Yes, there will be logs, but doesn’t seem like it should be my job to be trying to extract details from a bank I’m not with. I’d expect my own bank to be taking it up and challenging it on my behalf, so wondering if that’s the first line of complaint?

I have no idea and am guessing, but this seems logical to me. It’s the same as when dealing with insurance claims or missing deliveries surely, you deal with the companies who you have a relationship/contract with.

I’m quite surprised at First Direct. They’re usually renowned for their customer service. Maybe an initial response from Nationwide of “bugger off” is designed to weed out the chancers and you contesting their decision will have them look into it properly. Banks must get loads of bogus claims for cashpoints failing to spit out money.

If it tries to dispense cash and no one takes it, it should take the cash back in. I’m not sure if it dumps it in an unclaimed bin or puts it back in the pot and relies on the machine/cash people logging a discrepancy.

Check on YouTube, I think one method for fraudsters is a camera or fake keypad to log your pin and a clip/cover that prevents the machine giving the card back, and another involves a clip or facia that intercepts the cash dispensing. I’m both cases someone nearby will come over and retrieve your card or cash when you give up.

If the machine knows you haven’t taken your cash it should start beeping at you

Ok. Cheers for the extra info.

I once left a significant amount of cash in the machine a few years ago, my head was in a mess so made silly mistakes.

First Direct were excellent, I gave them the details of the machine and they said would check it out with the provider. With a few days they were in touch and reimbursed me.

Pursue with First Direct and they’ll investigate some more.

I have seen the financial obudsman advice desperatebicycle, but does sound like pretty extreme lengths to go.

Phone them up, politely* say you’re going to escalate it to the ombudsman as you don’t agree with their findings/conclusion.

They get charged £500 by the ombudsman to review a case so if the complaint is <£500 they’ll probably capitulate.

*be nice, the person on the end of the phone is just doing a job.

If it tries to dispense cash and no one takes it, it should take the cash back in.

I once approached a cash machine and there was cash sticking out. I had a look to see if anyone was obviously walking away and couldn’t see anyone. As soon as I turned back it sucked the money in. Must have been sticking out for a good 30 seconds before I got there. Could similar have happened but someone with dubious morals (or just quicker) have scooped it up if the machine did eventually spit your money out?

If it tries to dispense cash and no one takes it, it should take the cash back in. I’m not sure if it dumps it in an unclaimed bin or puts it back in the pot and relies on the machine/cash people logging a discrepancy.

My understanding is that it counts it back in.

This may well be an urban myth, but I heard a tale that with early machines you could draw out say £30, carefully slip out the middle note, and wait for it to take the money back none the wiser. Even if this is an apocryphal tale, there must be some form of checking going on to see what’s going out and what’s going in.

Retained cash goes to a divert bin, not back into the main cassettes. There used to be a paper audit roll, that’s now written to disk and retrieved remotely.

(I’m not totally up to date on this, it’s probably 10 years since I was last in an ATM test lab but I don’t think it’s changed much. I’ve worked on NCR, Diebold, Wincor Nixdorf and Triton ATMs)

Everything is logged, absolutely everything – I work for a bank and as a part of a review of our ATM supplier I’ll take some cash out of a cashpoint before the day before the review and then look for it in the logs while with them.

If you didn’t get the cash or the cash came out later, it’s all logged.

BTW who ‘owned’ the cashpoint, or where was it located?

And if anyone sees an odd message on an ATM your using, take a picture!

Personally I’d issue them with a letter before action, and then file a small claims case, because its not really your job to chase them and prove the cash never came out.  As its First Direct thats taken the money from your account I’d take the case against them rather than Nationwide.  I don’t know if you need to go to ombudsman first (if thats in your account T&Cs) but if so they may say that when they respond to the LBA.

What TINAS says generally works. In theory you could raise two complaints – one against each bank. And it’s receipt of the complaint that triggers the fine, not the outcome. Often reminding them of this is enough.

Sounds like the machine was compromised to me…..

And if they say ‘it’s all logged on the computer’, ask them to prove its not another piece of shit as Horizon.  They may be more reasonable to people questioning  software validity this week than last week.

My guess is that the machine recovered itself and fed the money out after you left, them somebody took it before it was sucked back.

Why Nationwide say it wasn’t out of order is more of a puzzle, best guess is that the problem was external to the machine, eg connectivity or server, and they’ve only checked the log for the ATM itself. Or they checked the wrong ATM.

Aren’t these machines fitted with cameras?

They may be more reasonable to people questioning software validity this week than last week.

The problem is, as the PO employees have discovered, the law presumes that computers are reliable, and the onus is on the complainer to prove it’s faulty. Ridiculous law, it was changed in 1986 to say that computers should be presumed unreliable, but then changed back in 1999. There’s pressure to change it again, in the light of the PO injustice but no action yet.

I’d expect my own bank to be taking it up and challenging it on my behalf, so wondering if that’s the first line of complaint?

Vis your bank then via the ombudsman. Nationwide will not do anything for you directly as the staff will have limited access to the machine and it’s records. Nationwide machines are filled by G4S and they also take care of the reconciling of the machines too. As part of the Link network all banks agree to work in this way and share information.

If it tries to dispense cash and no one takes it, it should take the cash back in. I’m not sure if it dumps it in an unclaimed bin or puts it back in the pot and relies on the machine/cash people logging a discrepancy.

The cash moves from one of usually four cassettes inside the machine to the dispenser when you request it, if any notes jam they get diverted to the purge bin, a fifth cassette that is sealed. If you fail to take dispensed cash within a set timeframe (usually 20-30 seconds) then the machine will take the money back in and it again goes to the sealed purge bin, there is no way for it to go back to the dispensing cassettes. The machine’s log will show where every note has gone, either still in the main cassettes, out the dispenser slot and taken or in the purge bin. The machines are 99% accurate and it’s very rare anything more than a note goes missing. The only way the system can lose count is if the machine loses power midway through the cash travelling from the dispensing cassettes to the dispensing slot, when the machine regains power it will automatically do a test run of a note from each dispensing cassette to the purge bin, anything stuck mid-transit will also end up there too. The record will show a faulty transaction and the machine will be ‘down’ that amount while the purge bin contents will be ‘up’ thus cancelling each other out when the contents are reconciled after a refill.

Aren’t these machines fitted with cameras?

Not always and a few are dummies.

@reluctantjumper is spot on. There used to be / is a fraud where a cardholder requests 10 notes, takes the middle few and lets the machine retract the notes. To get around this, the ATM will go offline and the count of the purge bin will be used to prove what happened.

The logging in ATMs is really fine grained. The log will show what commands and responses were sent from/to the host, what statuses all of the sensors in the ATM had all along the cash path, all timestamped. What they can’t show is the amounts in the cassettes and purge bin when they’re next changed. That’s done with note counters at the cash distribution centre.

If you’re going to challenge it, ask for all the details. I suspect First Direct just sent a standard query to Nationwide and got a “it’s all OK reply back”.

BTW, some ATMs in convenience stores are (or were in my day at least) emptied and refilled by shop managers – the idea was to allow stores to recycle cash from the shop into the ATM. The degree of scrutiny in those ATMs was considerably lower. Personally I wouldn’t use them.

Some excellent info here,.so many thanks,. particularly for the ATM insights!

Two people in front of me used the machine, it was clear that it was running very slowly, but both people got their money ok.

It was painfully slow when I was using it, so there was obviously a problem, then the out of service notice, so pretty sure it was a complete machine fail,.rather than me leaving before the cash came out.

Anyways, will take it up again with FD and as suggested above request further details of their interactions with Nationwide.

Thanks all