[Closed] Cars are killing us. Within 10 years, we must phase them out

Don't you come on a car forum like this with your hippy clap trap.

See, if we weren't so preoccupied with the car as a status symbol ...

But for the great majority of journeys they can easily be substituted, as you can see in Amsterdam, Pontevedra and Copenhagen. We could almost eliminate them from our cities

.

Nice idea, but once again forgets that we don't all live in (or in some cases even near) cities

I'm off on a global ocean cruise on a container ship staffed by a herd of cows. I don't need a car!

It's an admirable cause, but I fear things won't change until either it's too late or there is an alternative that offers all the benefits of a car without the pollution.

People are lazy, and people like cars. Collectively, we are exceedingly unlikely to vote for anyone who would take our cars away.

But for the great majority of journeys they can easily be substituted, as you can see in Amsterdam, Pontevedra and Copenhagen. We could almost eliminate them from our cities

Nice idea, but once again forgets that we don’t all live in (or in some cases even near) cities

Eh? We couldn't cut the majority of cars from cities because many people, er, aren't in those cities?

I know there's always a surprising amount of people on STW that either need to tow a yacht from Aberdeen to Chamonix twice a week (without stopping) or have to drive 20 miles to get bread and milk - but since 80% of UK people in in urban areas, and a huge percentage of all car journeys are under a couple of miles, it is SURELY unarguable that society could cut down car use by a massive amount if we care enough.

EDIT

have just noticed that you carefully clipped out the sentence

"In some places, and for some purposes, using cars is unavoidable"

in order to argue that he is callously ignoring people for whom cars are a necessity. Oh, STW 😆

I’m all for the end of personally owned motorised transport. As long as it’s not for another 40-50 years as by then I’ll be either too old to drive or dead.

have just noticed that you carefully clipped out the sentence

“In some places, and for some purposes, using cars is unavoidable”

in order to argue that he is callously ignoring people for whom cars are a necessity. Oh, STW 😆

Try reading the thread title 😉

Since when was a modern car 19th century technology? Thats like equating a modern efficient home to a mud hut. Or laser guided bomb to a medieval spear. Also in 10 years time there will be a hell of a lot more hybrid and EV's on the roads and in 20 years almost all cars on the road will be hybrids or EV's so the problem is already well on the road to being phased out.

No problems with initiatives that cut down petrol and diesel engined cars in cities and large towns, like congestion charges or banning odd numbered reg plates on Mondays, Wednesdays and Fridays and even numbered ones in between. But you have to pair initiatives like that to having large out of town parking areas for park and ride, or introduce free parking at train stations for those who need to drive part of the way.

There are alot of people on here that would make great dictators...banning activities of vast swathes of the population. the problem with that is once you've banned one thing, you just keep on going. I think we should ban people who want to ban things.

Also in 10 years time there will be a hell of a lot more hybrid and EV’s on the roads and in 20 years almost all cars on the road will be hybrids or EV’s so the problem is already well on the road to being phased out.

Which do nothing to stop collisions, congestion and SMIDSY along with all the other problems like covering huge amounts of space to park oversized single person transport devices.

Try reading the thread title

yeah, that's a typical newspaper clickbait headline. the actual article is not as extreme ("Let’s set a target to cut the use of cars by 90% over the next decade.")

Since when was a modern car 19th century technology? Thats like equating a modern efficient home to a mud hut.

More like comparing a modern home with an 18C home, or a lazer guided bomb to the bombs used in the siege of Venice.

Much as I'd like to see 90% less cars in 10years time I predict 10% more cars.

Much as I’d like to see 90% less cars in 10years time I predict 10% more cars.

I was just about to say the same thing. Our entire way of life pretty much revolves around cars in this country. It will take way longer than a decade to even put a dent in that.

Nice idea, but once again forgets that we don’t all live in (or in some cases even near) cities

Where do you think the author lives?

Works for me.

Who wrote it?

A ten yr old ?

In some places, and for some purposes, using cars is unavoidable.

Quite right. I had to use my car to go and get it a new battery just this afternoon. Couldn't have done that on public transport, bloody thing weighs a ton.

Most of us wouldn't be able to go mountain biking without our personal transport. Getting the train to Swinley might be fine once, just.

But try getting the train/bus to the Forest of Dean, or just about anywhere rural.

We won't give up personal transport, we might be forced into using clean personal transport though.

wobbliscott

Member

Since when was a modern car 19th century technology? Thats like equating a modern efficient home to a mud hut. Or laser guided bomb to a medieval spear. Also in 10 years time there will be a hell of a lot more hybrid and EV’s on the roads and in 20 years almost all cars on the road will be hybrids or EV’s so the problem is already well on the road to being phased out.

No problems with initiatives that cut down petrol and diesel engined cars in cities and large towns, like congestion charges or banning odd numbered reg plates on Mondays, Wednesdays and Fridays and even numbered ones in between. But you have to pair initiatives like that to having large out of town parking areas for park and ride, or introduce free parking at train stations for those who need to drive part of the way.

There are alot of people on here that would make great dictators…banning activities of vast swathes of the population. the problem with that is once you’ve banned one thing, you just keep on going. I think we should ban people who want to ban things.

True. There's a vocal minority on here who would probably describe themselves as liberals, yet whose viewpoints are the exact opposite of what the word liberal really means. They make the assumption that people are stupid and need to be constantly told what to do and that they know best. It's a bit worrying really, as this is what political tyranny feeds off.

JP

I don't think work would take too kindly to me taking 8 hours or so to where I'm working tomorrow, plus an hours ride from the hotel and then 8 hours back on works time.

True. There’s a vocal minority on here who would probably describe themselves as liberals, yet whose viewpoints are the exact opposite of what the word liberal really means.

Liberal has some really interesting followers....In the US for instance it's protect the interests of old white men against all those foreigners and gays like, in Australia it's the party that wanted internet blocking and the hardest of borders.

Which one are you referring to?

In terms of the article it's about trying to make a world where relying on inefficient and costly personal transport devices becomes a thing of the past and investment goes into better solutions that are better for the population as a whole.

In ironic news, Birmingham city centre is apparantly logjammed as I type by taxi drivers protesting about the proposed congestion charges.

Also in 10 years time there will be a hell of a lot more hybrid and EV’s on the roads and in 20 years almost all cars on the road will be hybrids or EV’s

Sooner than that even, we’ll maybe, the motor industry moves quicker than ever.

Although personally I still fear all EVs do is shift the energy generation to a more tax efficient location, but change is happening there too.

There’s no reason why cars have to go away, they’re safer (for people in and outside of them) and cleaner than they ever have been, but the next leap will be to remove the driver from the equation, you can’t trust a emotional being to be in charge of such a dangerous thing.

Where do you think the author lives?

He did live in Machynlleth; probably still does.

At least he's moved on from Tesco being the route of all evil, which was the main gist of all his articles for a good few years...

This thread shows two things:

1. People don't click through to the article and read it before commenting;
2. People are desperate to be able to continue to drive whatever the wider costs.

I think we might have got close to Godwin's Law on page one as well?

In ironic news, Birmingham city centre is apparantly logjammed as I type by taxi drivers protesting about the proposed congestion charges.

How can we tell the difference from any other day?

And, just for when this thread gets to this point:

https://twitter.com/BruceMcAdam/status/1103649827575996416

 There’s a vocal minority on here who would probably describe themselves as liberals, yet whose viewpoints are the exact opposite of what the word liberal really means. They make the assumption that people are stupid and need to be constantly told what to do and that they know best. It’s a bit worrying really, as this is what political tyranny feeds off.

Pretty fair evaluation IMHO. Pop over to the Brexit thread JP, you'll get a warm welcome over there 😉

Wobbliscott gets my vote for ranting without having read even the synopsis.

In ironic news, Birmingham city centre is apparantly logjammed as I type by taxi drivers protesting about the proposed congestion charges.

Taxis are public transport last time I checked. Working mostly days non car owners are my biggest customer group.

mikewsmith

Subscriber

True. There’s a vocal minority on here who would probably describe themselves as liberals, yet whose viewpoints are the exact opposite of what the word liberal really means.

Liberal has some really interesting followers….In the US for instance it’s protect the interests of old white men against all those foreigners and gays like, in Australia it’s the party that wanted internet blocking and the hardest of borders.

Which one are you referring to?

In terms of the article it’s about trying to make a world where relying on inefficient and costly personal transport devices becomes a thing of the past and investment goes into better solutions that are better for the population as a whole.

Capital L or lower case l? The Guardian is a Liberal paper, and Monbiot is a Liberal voter, I suspect. So have I been historically, but I am finding it increasingly difficult to find common ground with the sort of Liberal voter (and people on here) who treat environmentalism as some sort of apocalyptic cult.

I've lived in places with great public transport systems (relatively speaking), but they were rubbish in reality - expensive, overcrowded, and rarely went exactly where you wanted them to. That's not to say they don't have their place, but to suggest that you could replace 90% of car journeys with public transport is ill conceived and unrealistic, even with a limitless budget.

JP

Well the Greens are already doing their bit in Scotland with their car park tax. That's going to do wonders for progressive taxation when the lowest paid are hit harder than the management. Of course this city-centric policy has been fully thought out and will work fine outside of the Lothian Buses catchment area. Won't it?

Are the Greens running Edinburgh Council now?

I’m still trying to work out if the OP had an actual point....or just left that there for people to trip over!?

I'm always impressed how a cycling forum could be so almost universally opposed to the idea of a

switch towards safe and separate bike lanes

I’m still trying to work out if the OP had an actual point….or just left that there for people to trip over!?

It's seen it posted online today, so came here to see what STW thought about it. There wasn't a thread, so I started one.

I'm with Monbiot.

The only way to end the private motor vehicles' reign is to put other forms of transport first.

Will this thread overtake the other car thread or will it be too slow and stuck behind Edukator?

Scotroutes, no but some idiot in some council, probably mine, will think that it's a fantastic idea.

I have no problem with the principle but as it stands there is no sanity test to account for a lack of transport links or the needs of shift workers. So it's either going to be meaningless if no council adopts it or a colossal cluster **** if they do when it's completely inappropriate.

For illustration the site I work on is a good couple of miles from the nearest bus stop, several miles from the nearest station (when trains are running) and has at least 500odd folk on site on any given day. Plus contractors. Plus the other site next door.

I realise there is a chicken and egg thing going on but this is just being pushed through with absolutely no thought behind it.

I agree, although I wouldn’t put it the way he does, as he will turn off a large percentage of the population. More journeys in future will have to be public, that’s just a fact, and to accomplish that you have to have much, much better public transport and cars have to be more expensive. EVs and autonomous vehicles have their place but as a solution they are on the fringes I feel..

Edit: sorry miketually I was agreeing with you but as usual I’m too slow

Bails, why would anyone be against that? Why do you think they are? That's like saying people who like Hugo Boss are for the Nazi party. Literally nobody has said that.

I realise there is a chicken and egg thing going on

Yep, this is the biggest issue. No demand means no public transport. No public transport means there are few options other than to drive. The same issue affects rural communities (even more so). Still, you have to wonder how many of those 500 could cycle or walk.

Working mostly days non car owners are my biggest customer group.

Do you ask every passenger?

There are alot of people on here that would make great dictators…

You mean like the people who insist that we must structure society around the motor car?

I'd say very few to be honest, we're 2 miles from the nearest road and a couple of miles again from the nearest village. Most folk live at least 9 miles away and it's a very exposed road along the coast even in summer. E-bikeable but still not idea when the wind and rain are pelting you.

We’re well and truly past the point of no return IMO so make Merry whilst we can.......(let those snowflake millennials sort it out😁)

Hypothetically like. Just say that our current transport choices might make our civilisation untenable in 50 years time. I know how completely unlikely this is: But would some on here still bleat how impossible it is to make do without a car?

Will this thread overtake the other car thread or will it be too slow and stuck behind Edukator?

Give yourself a warning for a cross-thread personal attack, Drac. (add sticking out tongue smiley here)

Oh and thanks for letting the other one run, I kept going till Molgrips suggested I stop which seemed wise.

Hypothetically like. Just say that our current transport choices might make our civilisation untenable in 50 years time. I know how completely unlikely this is: But would some on here still bleat how impossible it is to make do without a car?

Describe how this is going to happen. Otherwise it's a stupid hypothetical.

Oh, and I assume that all of the anti-car types on here don't own a car/never use a car and don't rely on road transport to receive any of the things they buy. Otherwise you're just sanctimonious hypocrites.

JP

Describe how this is going to happen. Otherwise it’s a stupid hypothetical.

I hesitate to mention climate change

Give yourself a warning for a cross-thread personal attack, Drac. (add sticking out tongue smiley here)

😬

Describe how this is going to happen. Otherwise it’s a stupid hypothetical.

I hesitate to mention climate change

Ah, the apocalyptic cult rears its head.

So, let's say cars are electric in 50 years time and we have sufficient energy from renewable sources or otherwise, how exactly will climate change affect our ability to travel by personal methods of transport? Seems like a nonsense argument to me.

Oh, and I assume you don't own a car, then?

JP

Oh, and I assume that all of the anti-car types on here don’t own a car/never use a car and don’t rely on road transport to receive any of the things they buy. Otherwise you’re just sanctimonious hypocrites.

Perhaps they're forced into car ownership because society has been planned around it for so long? Perhaps if, over say ten years, we changed tack and favoured other means of transport they wouldn't be forced into owning a car?

No problem with things being phased out as long as the cost burden is not conveniently and almost completely dumped on the individual. The moral high ground abused to hammer people with inequitable taxes, when only severely limited and astronomically expensive alternatives are available, little to no incentives offered. Blanket black and white solutions applied, ignoring any difficulties, due to it not affecting you, your mates and returning tidy profits for investors and stakeholders.

Where it is abused by public private sector partnerships as the thin end of reintroduction of society wide class segregation, coupled with excessive surveillance and authoritarian practices.

Oh, and I assume you don’t own a car, then?

Yes I do. But over the last 4 years I have cycled about 40,000 miles & driven about 4000. How about you? If everyone else had this kind of bike/car ratio perhaps we wouldn’t be having a problem

A car is an inanimate object explain how it is killing me because last time I checked all this shit is made by people

Whoosh.

Let's legalized guns...

Here's what would work here, in my fairly average north east England town:

1. Place bus services back into public ownership;
2. Blanket 20mph speed limit in urban areas;
3. Every hour of car parking costs the same as a day pass on the bus;
4. Remove 5% of town centre parking spaces each year;
5. Use filtered permeability to make walking, cycling, public transport the easiest options;
6. Bus lanes on all main roads;
7. High quality, physically separated cycling infrastructure on all main roads;
8. Road not wide enough for 6 and 7? Then it's not wide enough for two way motor traffic, take away a lane to make space for 6 and 7.

My name is on a ballot paper for May.

miketually

Subscriber

Oh, and I assume that all of the anti-car types on here don’t own a car/never use a car and don’t rely on road transport to receive any of the things they buy. Otherwise you’re just sanctimonious hypocrites.

Perhaps they’re forced into car ownership because society has been planned around it for so long? Perhaps if, over say ten years, we changed tack and favoured other means of transport they wouldn’t be forced into owning a car?

So what? You have everyone in rural areas forcibly moved to cities? Or you have a massively inefficient bloated public transport system that actually caters for all needs, but still isn't really any good?

You lot talk about the car as if it's part of a global conspiracy, yet you don't offer any clear and credible alternatives. Come on then, tell me how my life, for example, would work without a car?: I live in a rural area, 15 miles from the nearest city and have to drop and pick up my young daughter from the nearest school, which is several miles away. There are many people like me, so do enlighten us.

JP

A car is an inanimate object explain how it is killing me because last time I checked all this shit is made by people

Okay, cars can stay but we'll ban driving them. Problem solved.

So what? You have everyone in rural areas forcibly moved to cities? Or you have a massively inefficient bloated public transport system that actually caters for all needs, but still isn’t really any good?

You lot talk about the car as if it’s part of a global conspiracy, yet you don’t offer any clear and credible alternatives. Come on then, tell me how my life, for example, would work without a car?: I live in a rural area, 15 miles from the nearest city and have to drop and pick up my young daughter from the nearest school, which is several miles away. There are many people like me, so do enlighten us.

You didn't read the article did you?

If you live in a rural area a ban on cars in cities is unlikely to be much of a problem to you.

The article gives clear and credible alternatives, and even gives examples of paces they already exist.

Oh, and I assume you don’t own a car, then?

Yes I do. But over the last 4 years I have cycled about 40,000 miles & driven about 4000. How about you? If everyone else had this kind of bike/car ratio perhaps we wouldn’t be having a problem

It's just like a religion isn't it? - 'look how virtuous I am!'

Have a medal.

JP

So what? You have everyone in rural areas forcibly moved to cities? Or you have a massively inefficient bloated public transport system that actually caters for all needs, but still isn’t really any good?

You lot talk about the car as if it’s part of a global conspiracy, yet you don’t offer any clear and credible alternatives. Come on then, tell me how my life, for example, would work without a car?: I live in a rural area, 15 miles from the nearest city and have to drop and pick up my young daughter from the nearest school, which is several miles away. There are many people like me, so do enlighten us.

You didn’t read the article did you?

If you live in a rural area a ban on cars in cities is unlikely to be much of a problem to you.

The article gives clear and credible alternatives, and even gives examples of paces they already exist.

I'm not referring specifically to the article, but the general anti-car rhetoric on here.

JP

Rural school runs: school bus.

Next issue?

I’m not referring specifically to the article, but the general anti-car rhetoric on here.

I'm seeing far more pro-car posts?

It’s just like a religion isn’t it? – ‘look how virtuous I am!’

So.... you accuse people of being hypocrites for using a car & so when I point out that I don’t use mine that much you suggest I’m being sanctimonious. Enlighten me how I can win this particular argument?

But for the great majority of journeys they can easily be substituted, as you can see in Amsterdam

There are a great many cars in Amsterdam still. It's good, but it's not utopia.

Enlighten me how I can win this particular argument?

Buy a hybrid and become the Messiah himself.

miketually

Subscriber

Rural school runs: school bus.

Next issue?

There isn't one. And that would only address a small part of the issue.

By the way, I lived in Amsterdam for many years, which Monbiot and many other loons see as some sort of public transport utopia. The reality is that it works better than the UK but it's still a massive pain in the arse to get anywhere that isn't on a direct tram route. I used my bike more than anything there, but you don't always want to arrive everywhere covered in sweat/soaked to the skin/freezing cold (delete where appropriate).

JP

It’s just like a religion isn’t it? – ‘look how virtuous I am!’

So…. you accuse people of being hypocrites for using a car & so when I point out that I don’t use mine that much you suggest I’m being sanctimonious. Enlighten me how I can win this particular argument?

Lol!

JP

There isn’t one.

There isn't one yet.

I get that you just want to drive. In anti-car utopia you will probably still be able to drive, it'll just be more expensive and less convenient than not driving.

Buy a hybrid and become the Messiah himself.

Oh don’t be such a hypocrite Drac. I bet none of you ambulances are electric

I’m always impressed how a cycling forum could be so almost universally opposed to the idea of...

Nah. It's a forum for car-centric driving gods with a hobby.

So phasing out car travel?

First look at it as 2 problems - city stuff start now, we need drastic action to improve the lives of people in cities, hours are lost each day to congestion, it is preventing public transport working efficiently and hampering business. We are still dedicating huge amounts of space to parking cars that sit idle for 20+hrs a day, worse still most have 2 spaces allowed for them, one at home and one at work. We can and should be doing everything we can within urban areas to keep private vehicles out or at least restrict them. You can do this through taxation and regulation.
And for our libertarian JP that may be restricting what people can do, but the over population of the private car removes my right to clean air, removed my right to cycle safely, removes open spaces and restricts housing development all over cities.

For rural areas we need to look at seriously improving public transport, as the chart up there shows we didn't use to have this level of car ownership? In the time it has increased we have closed rail lines, cut bus services and things like that, we need to reverse these things. There is a rail line cutting through my parents farm that used to run through all the small villages into town, it used to connect Alnwick with the mainline at Alnmouth, restore that and you have a great number of journeys that could be taken off the road. Sort out the pricing and give reductions and free travel to those who cannot afford it.

In general, Amazon have shown us how disruptive they can be in the retail sector, that model means we can get things delivered - a single delivery van is way better than 50-60 cars. Supermarkets deliver etc. we can change how we live and we can change how we depend on the car. If we do it there is a chance that we could have a better place for all of us to live.

Oh, and I assume that all of the anti-car types on here don’t own a car/never use a car and don’t rely on road transport to receive any of the things they buy. Otherwise you’re just sanctimonious hypocrites.

Not at all. You can own a car and still realise that structuring society around driving, in the way we currently do, is not a great idea.

Not at all. You can own a car and still realise that structuring society around driving, in the way we currently do, is not a great idea.

Exactly. This:

Oh, and I assume that all of the anti-car types on here don’t own a car/never use a car and don’t rely on road transport to receive any of the things they buy. Otherwise you’re just sanctimonious hypocrites.

It's like saying "Oh you're opposed to childhood obesity and yet you give your children food, how hypocritical".

I drive, sometimes I enjoy it, normally it's boring, occasionally it's really frustrating. I would like the option of getting to work by bus, train or tram. And the ability to cycle safely to the station to use that public transport, a la Amsterdam. That doesn't make me a hypocrite. It also doesn't really make me anti-car, I'd just like the alternatives to be better. But as said above, it's all a bit chicken and egg, people will resist things that make driving harder because driving is currently the only option for a lot of people, because we've made driving easier and the alternatives hard, because most people drive, because driving is easier, because.....

Squirrelking:

Bails, why would anyone be against that? Why do you think they are? That’s like saying people who like Hugo Boss are for the Nazi party. Literally nobody has said that.

Maybe I'm wrong and this thread will be different. So squirrelking, JJPrestidge, are you in favour of a massive programme of building loads of bike lanes (at the expense of space for motor vehicles if need be) and closing rat runs ("filtered permeability") to motor vehicles?

Oh, and I assume that all of the anti-car types on here don’t own a car/never use a car and don’t rely on road transport to receive any of the things they buy. Otherwise you’re just sanctimonious hypocrites.

Oh no, we own a big Merc and a LWB T5.1 camper. We're looking to buy a Marco Polo.
But I cycle to work and herself either catches the train or cycles 15 miles each way to work.
I couldn't believe at work today that one of my colleagues drives less than s mile to work and pays £200 a month to park her car. I cycle past her place every morning and evening. She also complains about not being paid enough.

A basic workies high vis jacket, the cheapest waterproof trousers and wellies combined with electric bike let me commute in storm condtions and I arrive drier than if I take the car and have to run across a car park. It's actually warmer than waiting for a stupid diesel to heat up. It is Always quicker. No shower, no rapha kit. I could easily do an office based management job without offending anyone. Instead those types ruin their lunchtime with jogging, or get ill with sedentary and mental health diseases.

I have a stupid big diesel but it only goes journeys plus 50 miles, expensed miles for work, and often carries a bike for the last mile for maximum efficiency.

Yup, I'm completely in favour of decent cycle infrastructure and the notion that private vehicle use within a city is, for all but a diminishingly small amount of cases, completely unnecessary.

What I am against is the idea that the same rules apply outside of your general metro areas. As soon as you hit the suburbs (or cross the council boundary) in Glasgow, for example, you have private bus operators selling outrageously expensive and complicated services (if they haven't cut them), heavy rail service that would be better as light rail or tram train, patchy coverage and no multimodal ticketing to speak of. And that's before you hit the sticks.

The reason that people are tied to cars, and that some of you just don't understand is simple mobility. Social and economic. The infrastructure doesn't exist to replace cars and nor does the legislation to make it happen. It's like my car park tax thing I was on about. Anyone with any foresight would think about it when thrashing it out and say, okay, instead of just hammering employers for the amount of car parking space they have why not award discounts based on the percentage of employees they can shift to a more sustainable transport alternative or something similar that doesn't just hammer everyone financially whilst offering nothing in the way of alternatives.

But yeah, my point was that whilst people may be arguing about the ins and outs of monoblocks monologue nobody actually said anything against bike lanes!

The infrastructure doesn’t exist to replace cars and nor does the legislation to make it happen.

Is this not Monbiot's point? We need to make this infrastructure and legislation exist.

No demand means no public transport. No public transport means there are few options other than to drive. The same issue affects rural communities

Very true. Although in the main towns around my area there are lots of bus routes, train stations etc,. Rural will never be solved so ignore that but at least get people using the good public transport where it does exist. How you do that I don't know as I would like to experiment with free public transport for 6 months to see if even making it completely free drives up use - I would guess it wouldn't make much difference.