Many Town centres still suffer from roads that weren’t designed to handle the number of people moving through them
If those people were mostly on bikes, trams and buses then there wouldn't be as much of a problem. The issue is they can't cope with the number of cars moving through them. The solution is either to get some people out of cars for some journeys and turn our city centres into this:
or to accommodate the cars and turn our city centres into this:
The fable of the yawning pig is very fitting. It was an adaptation, here is a translation:
A Poem: The Sow Under The Oak Tree
A poem by Ivan Andreyevich Krylov, translated by Yana Kane
Beneath an oak a sow pigged out on acorns,
Then napped under the shady canopy,
At last, refreshed, she set her snout to digging,
Baring the roots that fed the ancient tree.“Stop! Stop!” called out a raven from the branches.
“The oak tree’s roots are damaged when you dig.”
“What do I care if this useless stump does wither?
Acorns are all I’m after,” said the pig.The oak tree’s voice then joined the conversation.
“Ingrate!” said to the swine the mighty tree,
“If you could lift your snout up from your grubbing,
You’d see that all the acorns come from me.” -------
An ignoramus mocking education,
Scoffing at science, is blind just like that sow,
Failing to see that on the tree of knowledge
Ripened the comforts he’s enjoying now.
This far down the line the argument is pretty much academic. The pig gave up yawning a while back when he mistook a talking raven for 'Chicken Licken'. A fierce lazy online comment-war ensued and raged for decades.
Online pig-wrestling is now the most popular global sport, even though it remains unrecognised. Time was when the pig would just keep on yawning and sleep on straw. Now he takes the straw and constructs facile arguments with it. Then shits on it, claiming victory over the raven whom he now refers to generically as Chicken Licken My analogy is stretched, and my day is already ruined.
From my high horse here in Copenhagen it's threads like this that make me think the UK is totally doomed.
From my high horse here in Copenhagen it’s threads like this that make me think the UK is totally doomed.
it'd better be a high horse. you'll get wet feet before we do... 😉
Crumbs. Words fail me.
Have you ever heard of a thing called a school bus?
You're assuming there is one.
We used to put our daughter on the bus when she was 5/6. It took nearly an hour each way, which is a bloody long time for a little kid. Then they cancelled it due to lack of funding.
Has anyone spent anytime in the Netherlands?
Great, probably the best, cycling infrastructure, good rail network, lots of goods carried by the canal network. Sounds perfect.
Their motorways are still completely overloaded, just try and drive past Rotterdam at rush hour.
There is more to the solution then just telling people to ride bikes.
You’re assuming there is one.
We used to put our daughter on the bus when she was 5/6. It took nearly an hour each way, which is a bloody long time for a little kid. Then they cancelled it due to lack of funding.
closer school?
You’re assuming there is one.
Or as this was started as a 10 year plan thread maybe we could get them back, hour each way seems tough but it's quite normal for a lot of rural kids who's parents can't take them to school. Certainly is used to be a dedicated bus so it was safe for the kids but the downside was it took longer as it was picking up people from all over.
There is more to the solution then just telling people to ride bikes.
I outlined a load in my post above. Lots of things can be done right now by just making it hard to drive into cities and easy to use public transport and investing in it. Every bus route should have bus priority, no bus should be stuck in traffic.
closer school?
You’re assuming there is one.
closer school?
You're assuming there is one and you can get into it. And haven't moved house in the meantime and don't want to take a fragile kid out of a positive environment, etc etc. There are lots of exceptions.
NB I'm not justifying the status quo. If I were in charge there'd be free school busses everywhere based on need not profitability.
You’re assuming there is one.
It was a question.
Get rid of bloody Moto-X bikes first
It was a question.
You're assuming I didn't know that.
I’ve lived in places with great public transport systems (relatively speaking), but they were rubbish in reality – expensive, overcrowded, and rarely went exactly where you wanted them to. That’s not to say they don’t have their place, but to suggest that you could replace 90% of car journeys with public transport is ill conceived and unrealistic, even with a limitless budget.
Really? I live in London and before that in Copenhagen and haven't owned a car in years.
It's interesting - recently some cities challenged their elected representative to use nothing but transit for a week - most failed miserably. Many said that was because they would have been late for an event/appointment. Or they needed to go to a shop the other side of the city and it would have taken hours. Or they couldn't leave work and get to their organic hot tantric yoga class on time. They completely missed the point - to experience what they can and can't do on public transit. You have to change your lifestyle. That's the larger problem. You simply cannot build enough transit to live like you do with a car. The lifestyle changes have to come firat otherwise it will fail.
Car ownership reductions disproportionately affect the poor and differently abled. Cheaper household supplies are often available in places further away for instance.
Plus if you think hybrids and electrics are less polluting, think again. They are worse to make, need batteries we don't know how to reuse or recycle and even if your electricity isn't fossil fueled it might be nuclear and burying that isn't sustainable in the long run
need batteries we don’t know how to reuse or recycle and even
Incorrect, there are plants operating for recycling lithium ion batteries. The one in France was on the news recently. The get 70-80% of the lithium back and the residue is incorporated into building blocks.
Renault have a power storage unit using old car batteries.
There is higher embedded energy in EV production but an ICE car always overtakes it in emissions over lifetime according to the Fraunhofer institute even with the brown-coal heavy German electrity production. UK electricity is 32% renewable and less than 50% carbon producing.
An small ICE car burns about 8 tonnes of fuel in it's life in addition to the energy used to make and recycle it. And in cities people breathe a significant amount of the resulting exhaust gas. None of those 8 tonnes of hydrocarbons are recycled.
Could STW start a reporting system for people who consistently post "fake news" and have a three counts and you're out system, please.
Edit to add a link so I don't get accused of fake news - first Google result for recycling lithium bateries:
https://siecledigital.fr/2018/02/01/processus-recycler-batteries-lithium/
But everywhere outside London is banned from doing the same thing that London does, even when it’s pretty obvious it works.
Not entirely true. Areas which have combined authority Mayors (Manchester for example) have the powers to introduce bus franchising if they choose. The challenge is that it’s not necessarily the golden bullet people think it might be, as it still requires significant public investment to run services to the places and at the frequency that you’d like. But, if you’re prepared to pay for it then there are definite advantages.
And nowhere outside of London gets the same amount of central government funding for its transport infrastructure.
It’s interesting – recently some cities challenged their elected representative to use nothing but transit for a week – most failed miserably. Many said that was because they would have been late for an event/appointment. Or they needed to go to a shop the other side of the city and it would have taken hours.
See here is the shocking point, it's rather obvious....
Private cheap car ownership has left us lazy and wasteful.
Public transport will not replace a car but keeping this one bonded in a city context will do a lot more, a lot more efficiently.
You want to travel to the bargain shop? I can get it delivered from Amazon at a good price.
Long term views here - ie stuff we can implement
Shared car schemes - ie a number of easy to rent cars that are parked in communal areas, sensible limits on individual renters (ie can't just block book it) that allow you to do the infrequent need a car jobs (I have access to 3 schemes now and have registered with one)
Again public transport priority over private cars in all situations, watching a bus try and deliver 40-60 people somewhere while crawling behind hundreds of single occupancy cars is depressing.
Subsidised public transport for low income families, make it free for kids, make it free for job seekers.
Ban single occupancy cars from within cities during peak times while increasing park and ride near outer stations and tram terminals - and yes you choose to live in the country you can handle the car parking out there.
Sort out school catchments - you go to the one where you live and transport is provided - make the incentive to improve schools for all not just move kids to the nice one.
We tackle the cities, then the town and protect people in rural areas the best we can, or more realistically we protect rural workers who are low paid and need to live locally, we don't assist those who choose to live miles from where they work despite it having no transport option but a car - that is your choice.
A final point and one that starts to ring true as I've been interviewing recently, there does appear to be some correlation between home ownership and car ownership
Of course it would be overly simplistic to call that cause and effect there are many factors but a system where home ownership is the aim leads to a less flexible workforce, it means you need to make big decisions when changing jobs - simply read the threads on here about new job/rubbish commute dilemma. The cost or moving is huge, it stops people being able to live in the best place for the job they are doing, a massive increase in remote working will help this but fundamentally are we going in the right direction?
There are other reasons for not wanting to move house besides having to sell it. Most of the renters I know want stability and permanence. Home ownership isn't just about avarice as many on here seem to suggest.
There are other reasons for not wanting to move house besides having to sell it. Most of the renters I know want stability and permanence.
Which is achievable, most renters I know what housing at an affordable price 😉 That ship sailed though.
and ooo new word leaned today "avarice" did I ever suggest is was?
For me certainly if I'd owned houses along my moves through life the only person who would be getting rich are estate agents.
The opening of this thread was about getting somewhere better in 10 years - do you think things will be better if we keep going the way we are?
We paid a more for a small house within an easy walk of the station, bus hub and Madame's place of work than we would have for a flash place with a swimming pool and half-hour commmute. It wasn't just an eco-choice though. We also considered schools, access to trails, distance from a public swimming pool (we can hear the tanoy), access to services... . And we had enough in the bank to pay more, some don't.
Very few pepole choose their home just on the bassis of transport and short of state attribution of property it's not going to happen.
Their motorways are still completely overloaded, just try and drive past Rotterdam at rush hour.
And how much worse would things also be in urban areas if the Dutch didn't have their cycling infrastucture?
I've spent a bit of time cycling around The Netherlands, and it was a pleasure. I wish we had the consensus and the leadership to do what they have done.
You want to travel to the bargain shop? I can get it delivered from Amazon at a good price.
You can but it isn't any more environmentally friendly than going in your car.
Incorrect, there are plants operating for recycling lithium ion batteries. The one in France was on the news recently. The get 70-80% of the lithium back and the residue is incorporated into building blocks.
Forgive me I omitted the " in an environmentally sound way" I assumed from context that would have been obvious. Shipping it to China on ships, storing nasty chemicals in building blocks which will eventually be released back into the environment, and the inevitable fact that some unscrupulous persons/companies will try to save money by disposing illegally mean that we haven't found the answer.
Honda has had cars on the road which are ICE which leave the air cleaner in their wake than it was before and have done for over 10 years.
Energy produced from fossil fuels produces carbon even cleaner burning natural gas. EV cars get these than a third of the quoted mileage in cold climates thus need recharging more often using more power etc. Etc. I would have thought you would realise one source is insufficient.
Could STW start a reporting system for people who consistently post “fake news” and have a three counts and you’re out system, please.
If that is addressed to me you can stick your slander (or libel, doubtless you'll do some sole source research and tell me which) and stick it where the sun doesn't shine, sunshine. I'm surprised with all the absolute bollocks you spout regularly and on the other car thread in particular that you've got the nerve to acuse anyone else of fake news. I hope to Christ you aren't teaching anymore and that the pupils you did have have been deprogrammed.
Even with reliable buses there is still a big element of walking (in rain and cold) and the journey taking longer because of all the stops and indirect route to where you are going.
One way of stopping car use would be to not allow it.
So you’d force people out of work to satisfy your dictatorial attitude to private car use? I’m lucky to have the job I’m doing, there is very low unemployment around here, so you’d prefer I had a journey to work lasting over two hours, probably closer to three on the bus, if there was even a bus in the early hours of the morning, rather than the twenty-twenty five minutes in my car, at far greater cost?
We tackle the cities, then the town and protect people in rural areas the best we can, or more realistically we protect rural workers who are low paid and need to live locally, we don’t assist those who choose to live miles from where they work despite it having no transport option but a car – that is your choice.
Christ on a pogo stick, the arrogance of the man! Stalin would be proud of you. I DO NOT CHOOSE to live miles from where I work, it was the only job I could find after the last one ended, leaving me with barely any savings and a mortgage and other bills to pay, and I’m bloody luck to haveone that’s fifteen miles away and relatively easy to drive to.
Your obsession leaves you blind to the realities of life outside of cities in the UK.
Your obsession leaves you blind to the realities of life outside of cities in the UK.
Which is why I said we start in the cities, make heaps of improvements, increase levels of service first. This is about a vision for the future where we can make improvements to the way the world works. I completely understand that it's important to make improvements before coming in with the stick.
It's also why my post made a really clear distinction between what we can do in cities right now and what we can try and do further out over time. But don't let that cloud your anger, this entire idea is to make your life harder and to target you individually.
Your obsession leaves you blind to the realities of life outside of cities in the UK.
Try reading more carefully there, I'm currently sat in a very rural spot 7 miles from the nearest town, 35 from a city, public transport is shocking out here, it's worse than when I grew up here, it needs some significant improvements - it's the area I mentioned above with a rail line that could make a huge difference to people moving around here and stop heaps driving into Newcastle to queue and park every day.
To make any of this happen needs significant investment over 10-20 years but it needs to be started and changed need to be made from now going forward.
How would you change things?
Honda has had cars on the road which are ICE which leave the air cleaner in their wake than it was before and have done for over 10 years.
Laughable. Peugeot claimed the same so some journalists turned up at the tech centre well prepared. The people in the tech centre refused point blank to breathe the exhaust gas from the car they claimed cleaned the air.
How would you change things?
Hover boards
Oh, well. Clearly your peugeot anecdote completely overwhelms any data Honda collected in it's experiments.
That would be like me inviting you to go and breath in what comes out of a Chinese battery recyling plant's smokestack, since batteries can be "safely" recycled.
I’ve lived in places with great public transport systems (relatively speaking), but they were rubbish in reality
That doesn't make sense. You lived somewhere with great public transport but it wasn't great? You didn't live somewhere with great public transport then 🙂 London has what I would consider great PT. Yeah the tube is busy and smelly and whatever, but it does its job - imagine getting around if everyone had to drive to work? There's no way on earth you could get all those people to all those jobs any other way.
When I worked in Helsinki, in a suburb, none of the team drove to work. They all got PT from various parts of the city, even though most of them also owned cars.
you’d prefer I had a journey to work lasting over two hours, probably closer to three on the bus
No, I'd rather you used a bus or tram and it was a good service. People advocating public transport are quite aware of how shit it is - we're not telling you to use what's there when it's unfeasible. We want proper investment in a decent comprehensive service.
Not a Chinese smoke stack within 8000km of here, Olly. Lots of filthy Honda exhausts packed with:
U.S. Environmental Protection Agency estimates of average passenger car emissions in the United States for April 2000[5] Component Emission Rate Annual pollution emitted
Hydrocarbons 2.80 grams/mile (1.75 g/km) 77.1 pounds (35.0 kg)
Carbon monoxide 20.9 grams/mile (13.06 g/km) 575 pounds (261 kg)
NOx 1.39 grams/mile (0.87 g/km) 38.2 pounds (17.3 kg)
Carbon dioxide - greenhouse gas 415 grams/mile (258 g/km) 11,450 pounds (5,190 kg)
London's PT can't hold a candle to Montreal's.
Now I am aware that this might sound like a random city choice, but...
A single adult Société de transport de Montréal (STM) pass costs around $80 CDN per month, and can get you anywhere on the island by metro, as far as Ste-Anne-de-Bellevue in the West, Laval in the North, and Longueil in the South. It includes buses and commuter trains, and makes the freedom to travel for even the poorest an unsurpassed experience in any city (with "good" PT) I have ever visited. That includes Toronto, Mexico City, Rome, Berlin, Paris, just to name a few.
There is a philosophy in Montreal that travel belongs to everyone, and should not only be inexpensive, but should seriously reduce traffic. I just got back from there this week, and it never ceases to amaze me how empty the streets are of cars even a peak travel times.
Good price in Canada
https://www.tfgm.com/tickets-and-passes/tram-season-ticket-annual-adult
£930/year for me or £77.50 a month
http://systemonetravel.co.uk/travelcard-finder/?age=adult
£125/month(4 weeks) for all trams and busses in Greater Manchester
Discounts also available for kids, elderly (some free) and other concessions
Worth noting that Montreal has about a tenth the population of the London area. But that just goes to show what can be done if you invest.
Honda exhausts packed with:
estimates of average p
One of these things is not like the other.
Googling random factoids that don't relate to each other do not an argument make. See if you can refute the idea that the technology on the front of the Honda removes more pollutants than the back end puts out. Note that isn't the same as saying the back end puts out none, which your Peugeot journos failed to grasp.
Then Google how transport accounts for a minority of pollution. Then Google the amount of pollution produced by the manufacture of all the parts of an electric car and the pollution produced when you "recycle" batteries.
Then stitch all those related facts together into a cogent argument.
Then stitch all those related facts together into a cogent argument.
Cars are bad, private transport is wasteful regardless of the fuel used.
t never ceases to amaze me how empty the streets are of cars even a peak travel times.
You jest, yes? Compared to London maybe. And the two? bridges in all of Vancouver.
Montreal heavily subsidises it's transit, which does serve a lot of riders. It also got massive subsidies to buikd it. It helps that they have an excellent underground pedestrian network. They have done a brilliant job of making transit serve as many people as possible but it isnt a system many places could afford. Quebecers pay a lot of taxes.
Cars are bad, private transport is wasteful regardless of the fuel used.
6/10. Non sequitur, no sources cited. Must do better.
Then Google how transport accounts for a minority of pollution.
What pollution and where?
Read theOPs article but not all of the subsequent posts but i’m entirely inclined to agree with Monbiot.
Surely it’s a no brainer to sob what ever we can to find and encourage new and better ways to travel and even to maybe just accept that we’ve had the mad gold rush on private transport for our own leisure and lifestyle needs but it surely can’t go on like this without reaching a saturation point can it?
I live in an old victorian town which when is now literally bumper to bumper with cars lining the roads. People do have some garages but these are either not used as they are too small for modern cars or just a hassle to enter and exit. I myself and guilty of running 2 cars... one of which is very rarely used but stupidly required as i need to have one for work (comes with a car allowance) but the wife only works a couple of miles away yet has only cycled about twice in 20 years FFS!!
I cycle most days though to work when not on site which involves a ride to the station then a train 20 miles then a cycle the other end and i quite enjoy it...and for all of the train issues i very rarely get held up. I also try to cycle to the shops or just walk (we do have 3 local supermarkets) and even drag one of those old lady shopping trolleys (much to the mirth of anyone i see) to negate the ridiculous drive round to the shops routine.
I work for a firm run by 2 guys who’s wives and sons both work there (6 people, 2 house holds) and yes, they all drive in in separate cars!! Rational being they have different agendas so it’s more convenient... and there’s the problem, we just are not willing to be inconvenienced these days. The 2 young lads at work point blank refuse to get a bus or train as they won’t be mixed with the general public and god forbid have to sit next to someone else. Thing is that we have limited space for parking now and it’s a constant source of complaining from the staff yet most live no more than 5 or 6 miles from the office! Both my employers recently moved house so they could get 4 cars nicely parked off road... and the irony is that the 2 dads often drive in in there daughters small run around as opposed to their huge BmW,s or porsche,s because they can’t be arsed getting the cars off the drive so they can get theirs out of the garage.... it’s bonkers! But they see it as their god given right as they “work hard and pay their taxes”.
The final bloody straw for me last year was when they told me they were rescinding my work from home (2days a week) as it was a maverick situation and the other 20 or so employees don’t get this. Again here’s the problem... i’m now forced to come into work (25miles) by hook or crook 5 days a week to sit at a computer when i got just as much (actually more) done from home! Now they have run out of office space and are moving with no option for cycle or rail links so i’m off as soon as i can. But this bums on seats mentality in some work places is just madness if the work can be done from home!! Our lead engineer drives 2 hours each way every day... soon to be further when the office moves.
Somethings got to give.
you can refute the idea that the technology on the front of the Honda removes more pollutants than the back end puts out.
I do absolutely refute it. It's a pack of lies.
I found the original quote which is in itself bollocks
'[I]n some high smog areas, the Z-LEV's tailpipe emissions can be cleaner than the surrounding air,' says Honda
becuase it doesn't consider the main pollutants put out by an internal combustion engine, the gases, as pollutants at all. It just looks at things that can be removed by a filter and says that if they are pollutants they will be removed. It ignores what's going to happen at the end of the filters life, probably burned. What teh claim is really saying is:
"if you light a bonfire and run the smoke and fumes through a honda air filter it will remover the particulate pollutants, however the petrol engine will add a mass of unburnt hydrocarbons, NNOX, CO2 and other chemicals that will make already poisonous air aven more poisonous."
I found the quote in a Quentin Wilson book - a bollocks spouting petrolhead if ever there was one.
I do absolutely refute it. It’s a pack of lies.
And it's kind of incidental to the problem anyway. If cars' engines ran on negative thoughts and emitted nothing but the smell of freshly baked cookies they'd still be a problem in terms of the amount of road space they use, the particles from tyres and brake pads, the sedentary lifestyles that they enable, the amount of space needed to park them, the fact that they crowd out cycling and public transport by blocking up roads so the alternatives are slower/more dangerous and the damage they cause from collisions.
The same goes for the claim that "only a minority of pollution comes from transport". So what? It's still there, and a short journey to buy a pint of milk can be easily converted to walking or cycling. That doesn't mean that we can't also look at increasing power generation from renewables, or improve gas central heating efficiency.
The comment about councillors trying to use public transport and failing is probably true everywhere in the UK except inner London. There, public transport is the default sensible option. Friends who live there only use their cars when they come back 'home' to visit family or friends. Otherwise, the car sits unused for weeks at a time.
Absolutely, bails.
