Just looking at getting some train tickets for a journey in October, the cost to drive would be about a tank of petrol for 2 people, a whole heap of personal space & all the other advantages that come with driving. The train ticket is 2x this price. Even taking into account parking the car for the weekend it’s almost half the price…

It is utterly stupid.

Until rail fares are capped this will carry on. It cost my missus £50 to get to London and back last week. Would have cost around £25 in the car including the CC and parking.

It all depends – for one person public transport is almost always significantly cheaper than the true cost of driving ( which is more than petrol alone) for two its usually less clearcut.

Trains are often significantly quicker and a lot less stressful – sit there read a paper, use your laptop, drink a beer etc

The main reason is the massive subsidies to motoring compared to the massive waste of money in the current railways system

if public transport was run ONLY for the benefit of the public, it would be a lot cheaper, however it isnt, its run to make profit for shareholders, hence; http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/newsbysector/transport/8605011/Stagecoach-profits-jump-as-more-travel-by-bus-train.html

Mad ticketing sytems for trains do not help either

I can get from Edinburgh to london in 4 1/2 hrs for £100 ish return by train thats 400 miles each way – in a car that would take 7 hrs each way and cost more than that in petrol alone probably.

It all depends – for one person public transport is almost always significantly cheaper than the true cost of driving ( which is more than petrol alone) for two its usually less clearcut.

never that easy to say, what is the “true cost of motoring”, there is no simple answer. and for most people the fixed costs of running a car exist whether they use the car or take the train. My SO is going to york in a couple of weeks, so have done a bit of digging on this, no cheap fairs so it is going to cost just shy of £80, i have done the check routes and buy multiple tickets and can get it to £70.

If i use my car it would be 6 Gallons of diesel. which is c£40.

IF i use the train the car is still there, which means i have insurance to pay, i have VED of c£230 a year to pay, yes servicing would cost a bit more as the car is getting more use, but that is still £200 a year, with the odd repair on top. These costs are not seen at the point of use and so are almost irrelevant to most people when looking at the cost of a journey.

If you want people to use public transport it has to be cheaper at the point of use than the alternatives. Make the train £40 then it is a far nicer way to travel, but at £80 it is a piss take.

subsidies to motoring

is that not covered by the tax on petrol? just saying.

The journey I’m planning is 170miles 3hours in the car, for a cost of about £55.00 for a tank of fuel or 3hrs there & 4.5 hrs back in the train…

Why no cheap fares to york? where from at what time? Just interested like

its run to make profit for shareholders

+ the trains are rammed anyway.

We are not going to fix this unless there is some serious increase in capacity – which will probably have to be publicly funded.

HS2 anyone?

uwe-r – Member

“subsidies to motoring”

is that not covered by the tax on petrol? just saying.

Its a whole ‘nother debate we have done to death – but no – the total cost to the taxpayer of motoring is far more than the taxes raised from motoring.

All the deaths and injuries that need to be treated, all the cost of enforcement of motoring law, all the damage to buildings, the ill health from pollution etc etc etc.

Its not an easy thing to workout and every side of the debate has its own prefered sums but the costs are much greater than just the cost of the roads

Trains are often significantly quicker and a lot less stressful

i believe that there may be a parallel universe where this is actually true.

is that not covered by the tax on petrol? just saying.

depends,

M74 extension has cost c£692million, a lot of fuel.

Then there are the costs of accidents and policing, they don’t pay for themselves.

Then you move to the less tangible costs, transporting goods, how do you price a delay caused by congestion, who picks up the tab? How do you price Health related problems caused by pollution?

Depends on the numbers you use as to whether fuel does cover the costs, but as councils pay for the local road network you could argue that non drivers are subsidising the network, but no roads means no food deliveries so if you don’t drive you still need the roads to be there.

As i said it depends.

trailmonkey – Member

Trains are often significantly quicker and a lot less stressful

i believe that there may be a parallel universe where this is actually true.

Edinburgh / london in under 4.5 hrs? Free wifi, comfy seats, read a book, browse stw, drink beer

TJ if you can find one let me know, Cheltenham to York, week sunday to week wednesday, outward must be late afternoon return early morning, work reasons. and there needs to be flexibility just in case. So specific train times isn’t an option.

TJ is on to it. The ‘tax on petrol’ is not about putting a value on the externalities (external damage) incurred by the use of cars/lorries etc. Much as we don’t value water properly (it’s hugely undervalued), we also don’t look at the wider costs and benefits of the various forms of transport.

trailmonkey – Member

Trains are often significantly quicker and a lot less stressful

i believe that there may be a parallel universe where this is actually true.

Come on, even the biggest train hater has to admit it’s often true. Drive from Edinburgh to London vs train? 7 hours vs 4 hours 20, motorway bashing vs sit and have a read or a sleep or emorage on the internet via the free wireless on the train… Driving’s a horrible option by comparison.

Or, keep it shorter, Edinburgh to Glasgow. About an hour and 10 in the car vs 50 minutes on the train, city centre to city centre.

And no trying to find a parking space…

Sure, for a lot of journeys public transport is terrible, and for a lot more it’s just not as good as a car, but there’s plenty where it’s the best option.

So specific train times isn’t an option.

That’s your problem.

Not specific trains then you will struggle. I can’t find anything better bar specified trains singles at 29.50

Its mad pricing structure does not help. I am heading down to manchester from edinburgh in a couple of weeks and while I can get just abit cheaper for the two of us by train I cannot thru book the bikes I want to take as the cheap train is a roundabout route. So I risk not getting my bike on one of the connections.

I shall look into it further cos its cheaper than a car and quicker even for two of us – but marginal enough that hire car is a reasonable option

That’s your problem.

geoffj i know, and it is the big problem with public transport as it is currently configured it is not flexible and cheap at the point of use, compare with a car.

Trains are often significantly quicker and a lot less stressful

i believe that there may be a parallel universe where this is actually true.

I think this very much depends on where you live relative to the station. Virtually every train journey I would ever want to make involves taking a train to Nottingham first, it’s only a 15 minute journey but nine times out of ten you’ll have to wait at least 20 minutes for a connection. Going to somewhere like Birmingham I can be in Birmingham in the time it takes to get into Nottingham and wait for the next train.

there’s also the convenience factor. I work 24 miles from home, by the shortest road route. Best time is about 45 minutes as there are one or two cities in the way.

Train takes at least 2 hours, including 20 minute wait at one change and another 25 minute wait at another change; then there’s the walk to my ‘home’ station and the walk from the ‘work’ station, both about 10-15 minutes. It MIGHT be cheaper but it takes twice as long. And today there was a major problem at Leeds station due to power failure that lasted well over an hour.

<edit> correction, 1hr 39m plus the walks at each end. but it is only a fiver each way! </edit>

I’ll be travelling to London for the princely sum of £15 tomorrow, and if I can get the right return it’ll be £15 too 🙂

Not bad for a ~400 mile round trip

http://www.grandcentralrail.com/summersale

Viable public transport – does it exist outside main centres of population?

What would it take to increase frequency of service which had declined over the 10 years we have been in our village, although population had significantly increased due to new house building. Couple of buses a day – generally at times which are not conducive to work hours.

Aberdeen City council are obviously pushing the park and ride – as most streets in town now have exhorbitant parking charges (believe Council execs still get their parking spaces…funny that!). Are the parking charges to protect the environment or simply to generate income ‘though?

Challenge is that to use any viable public transport would simply involve a car journey to park then be conveyed a few miles further by bus – which does not actually pass work so is relatively inconvenient. Additionally I guess the rural location tends to have folk develop a ‘fend for myself’ attitude too.

So, as long as my employer still provides car parking then I’ll continue to take my car to work.

Train can be great ‘though….few times I’ve used them for longer distances with a cut price first class ticket then they have been enjoyable.

Demand management.

It might cost £987 to get to London on Monday at 9am, but the train’s chock full so why charge less?*

* devil’s advocate.

the total cost to the taxpayer of motoring is far more than the taxes raised from motoring

Still don’t agree with that, I think it’s too complicated to put a simple price on. What’s the benefit to the economy of mobility of goods and labour? Priceless. But I’m not going to argue about it since no-one can ever be sure.

There are many problems with trains. The rail network is at full capacity so we can’t lay on any more; building new lines is massively expensive and the govt can’t afford it (when you take into account priorities mandated by the electorate); all public transport depends on population density for viability NOT population numbers. So the majority of the people could be without usable options because they don’t live in a dense enough area, and so on.

geoffj i know, and it is the big problem with public transport as it is currently configured it is not flexible and cheap at the point of use, compare with a car.

But there’s also a mindset issue. We have become conditioned to appreciating the flexibility of the car – going when we want. To get the best out of the public transport system as it’s currently administered, you need to accept that you may need to just pick a train and stick to it.

I travel 1000s of miles on the train for business most months (up and down from Perthshire to London) and there are very few occasions where I need a flexible ticket. I can usually wangle decent priced 1st class tickets too with a bit of creativity.

We pay more in subsidies now than when it was British Rail and prices have doubled.

; all public transport depends on population density for viability NOT population numbers. So the majority of the people could be without usable options because they don’t live in a dense enough area, and so on.

Two pints.

1. Unfortunately the low density problems has been largely caused by poor town planning producing sprawling suburban towns and cities with out of town business parks for work, shopping centres and leisure parks for play, all designed around people driving and not using public transport. It’s a self fulfilling prophecy.

2. People living in low density areas may still use public transport for part of their journey if it goes into a high density area, this is just not a common case in this country unfortunately.

As part of thatchers wish and demonic desstruction of British rail, she sold off the trains, the locos, and coaches to 3 companies,the freight side was split into 4 parts, and the track and signalling was also split off into another company, owned by the state, which went bust, called railtrack.
At privatisation, perfectly viable trains where scrapped, lines ripped up and destroyed, lines single tracked(think of closing one side of a motorway, and making all traffic use the existing lanes but in one direction only, then after a few hours reverse the flow) and see if it works, with the railways it had to.

Take out the sidings where slower freight trains could nestle,Then create fixed formation trains like the voyagers and pendolinos, basicly buses on wheels engine below each, but with no ability to add more coaches, unless theyre in a factory, unlike the old coaches which could run as 20 coach trains.

So many things where done in the rush for easy money ,called privatisation, where the only ones who made a killing where the lawyers, and the coach and train painters, producing ludicrous paint schemes, and lots of papers.

Cos they all need to make profit to keep shareholders happy now. It is nonsense. It is cheaper for two people to share taxis for a regular local trip than it is to get a bus around our way.

Most people who say “I can’t easily get public transport to work” either work or live in the wrong place for the public transport network. Yes, if you live in the middle of nowhere and work in the middle of nowhere the train is not an option. Don’t blame the train, blame the fact that you live in the middle of nowhere. And if it’s an inevitable fact of the work or lifestyle or location you’ve chosen, accept it as a result of that choice.

I can’t ride out my front gate straight into the Lake District, I don’t blame the hills.

I would call a taxi a form of public transport.

Mrmo has it right. The cost of driving is 50p per mile for most of us. If you get 4 in a car it might be cheaper. Otherwise it usually isn’t. The real issues are convenience, privacy and autonomy.

Some weird times it is dead cheap.

Like Belper to family in London (3.5hr drive at least) , cost me 15 quid the other day for me plus daughter. Cheaper because daughter means I have a family railcard. Plus no paying for parking at other end.

Oh and my trip to work – by bus 4.90, for a 40 mile round trip. 12p a mile isn’t bad. Takes ages though, 1hr15 vs 60 mins on bike vs probably 50 mins in car.

Catch 22 – it’s not “cheap” enough so I don’t use it, it’s expensive cos no one uses it. Except network South East who some years ago reportedly put prices up cos too many people were using it.

Private vs public ownership?

Most people who say “I can’t easily get public transport to work” either work or live in the wrong place for the public transport network. Yes, if you live in the middle of nowhere and work in the middle of nowhere the train is not an option. Don’t blame the train, blame the fact that you live in the middle of nowhere. And if it’s an inevitable fact of the work or lifestyle or location you’ve chosen, accept it as a result of that choice.
I can’t ride out my front gate straight into the Lake District, I don’t blame the hills.

I live in Harrogate. To get to my office (3 miles from home) it takes two different buses. The ones leaving from near home only leave every hour.

I hardly live in the middle of nowhere yet the buses are not a viable option. Yes I can walk/drive/ride/run ( which I often do) but what about the people who rely on buses / trains? Like my mum for example – she used to look after our kids once a week but she had to rely on taxis/ lifts because it was pretty much impossible to use public transport in anything like a reliable fashion.

But when the railways where built in the 1860,s they where built to link centres of population, towns and cities, not over spill housing estates on green field sites.
Buses will only run if there is a need or demand, and then there is congestion caused by single occupancy car drivers in town and city centres that stop them getting round, and keeping to time.

Pay more council tax? Or give your mum the taxi fare to look after your kids?

I used to (and still do) get pigged off with people who “can’t get to work cos it’s snowing”. And I mean people who live in walkable distances, even if you’d get in late. Ever thought of showing willing?

The cost of driving is 50p per mile for most of us.

Is that the cost including all the subsidy TJ mentions (something I don’t dispute at all)? Otherwise that’s a complete load of rubbish – fuel still only ~13p a mile for me. Tax, MOT, insurance, servicing runs at ~£700 a year for me, hence 7p a mile. If I depreciate the amount I paid for my car over the total mileage I’ve done (it is to be fair pretty worthless now), that’s 8p a mile. Where’s the other 22p?

Of course only ~15p of that is variable cost (I’ll include a couple of pence for tyres and mileage related servicing costs).

Exactly the same thing- the problem isn’t that public transport is bad, the problem is that you’ve chosen to do a journey every day that isn’t well catered by public transport. You can’t blame the buses for that.

There’s nothing wrong with your choice of course. I’m sure you have good reasons for making it- but it’s still your choice to have bad public transport.

50 p a mile is the total cost roughly as worked out by the RAC – buying from new and doing 10 000 miles a year. small cars cheaper, bigger more expensive. 13 p a mile for petrol- is that a very economical car?
Tyres? repairs? Mots?