And yet, people still smoke. So education didn’t work. And demonstrably also:

fewer people smoke than did 20 years ago. (removed that, it was a wee bit aggressive, sorry)

here’s three areas that broadly speaking are why folks over-indulge.

Availability

Because the success of prohibition is well documented.

Oh, hey, maybe we’ll see a Brexit Benefit after all, when there’s no goddamn food left.

Association (good and bad)

Is this not mostly physiology? We like food which tastes good. Sugar gives us an endorphin rush. We are, I think, evolutionally predisposed to fatty foods for survival? And so forth.

(When it boils down to it, this is the only valid argument that omnivores have against the idea of eating less meat – they simply just like it.)

Accountability (to oneself or others)

How do you make someone care? This is perhaps the crux here. They have to want to do things differently.

(removed that, it was a wee bit aggressive, sorry)

I don’t know what you wrote but, don’t worry about it. All friends here.

The random use of “calories” when they mean K calories is going to drive me up the wall.

Totally agree with this. I think the main reason I don’t have a clue what the RDA calorie energy intake is because my brain automatically shuts down or ignores any input where kcalories and calories are freely interchanged.

I’m not convinced this is the reason for the lard endemic across the UK though…

I don’t know what you wrote but, don’t worry about it. All friends here.

I wrote “FACT” like some **** “pwning” some-one on a message board..idiot

Has anyone else here sat down in a place that has calorie counts after a long day’s riding and thought “I’ll have that one, it’s got the most calories, that sounds ideal?”

Fact- Federation Against Calorie Tabulation?
😉

brain automatically shuts down or ignores any input where kcalories and calories are freely interchanged.

Easy isn’t it, kcal is correct as a written unit, calories as anything else. No one uses actual cal outside a lab because they’re small to the point of irrelevance.

I assume you don’t have the same issue with kilo despite it not being clear if it’s kilometres kilograms kilojoules etc?

I’ll have that one, it’s got the most calories, that sounds ideal?

I recall thinking “supersize vanilla shake is [whatever the hell], ohhhh I can afford two”

I like it – calorie and nutrition information do make me re-consider what I’m buying/eating.

I think it needs to be addresses from school age on. I have always thought it daft that you can do maths and biology at school, but often will never learn about calculating taxes, mortgages etc, or what a nutrition label means.

As the father of a 12 year old Type 1 diabetic daughter, we have to give her insulin for every gram of carbohydrate she has, so i welcome actual nutritional information, not just calories.

The sad thing is, McDonalds, is by far the best about actually providing this info. If we go to a proper restaurant, then we are simply guessing the carbs on her plate from experience.

The worst we have found the worst things are “strawberry fruit cooler” or the like at Starbucks / Costa, you eat a burger and you know that it is not healthy, but a small fruit drink, which my daughter wants, can be 30-40g of sugar.

On top of that I am a diet-controlled Type 2 diabetic, following illness, not bad diet, i used to be on a few T2 diabetic FB pages, and if you think putting nutrtional info on a packet is understood by everyone, it is scary just how ignorant people can be, and that a large proportion of the country has no idea the difference between healthy fats and saturated, or processed sugars and low GI carbs etc. Every second post on there is people wanting to put on special “shake and soup diets” or have injections or surgery to stop them eating, as they really don’t have the control or ability to read labels and make wise choices.

I assume you don’t have the same issue with kilo despite it not being clear if it’s kilometres kilograms kilojoules etc?

Um. It usually pretty clear based on what’s being discussed. Just need to add in the appropriate SI unit*

Weight is done in kilobusses,
Area in kilofootballfields
Energy seems to be measured in kiloteaspoonsofsugar

Etc

* weird how some SI units are base, eg metres, but some are kilo, eg kg. Wonder why that is 🤔

Depends how important the person who came up with them is doesn’t it. No one cared about Pascal so his unit is really small. Everyone likes Buzz Lightyear so his unit is really big.

Personally I will find it useful and I quite often use the traffic light thing to make a choice when buying food off a supermarket shelve.

PS I haven’t read the previous 3 pages which I assume is just everyone arguing.

PS I haven’t read the previous 3 pages which I assume is just everyone arguing.

yep, some people saying “yes I’ll find it useful” only to be told by others they’re wrong, and no they won’t 🤷‍♂️ 😂

Mere pandering to the thick!

yep, some people saying “yes I’ll find it useful” only to be told by others they’re wrong, and no they won’t

Or more accurately: There’s some saying that they’ll find it useful, and there’s others saying saying here’s all the studies that show that evidence says it makes no difference to peoples habits

Yes to more nanny big-state becuz ppl can’t be expected to figure out how to eat and exercise properly, it’s the government’s job to do that, obviously.
Onward komrads, onwards…

Or more accurately: There’s some saying that they’ll find it useful, and there’s others saying saying here’s all the studies that show that evidence says it makes no difference to peoples habits

So your solution is to make the menu choice more opaque? I’m not sure how demanding less consumer knowledge could improve the issue. An interesting perspective.

So your solution is to make the menu choice more opaque?

If you’re the sort of person who looks at the calorie count next to a menu item and thinks, “That’s a handy reminder to make sensible choices, i’ll make a note of that” Then I’m going to suggest that you’re not the target audience for this measure. You can probably already determine what foods are OK, and what foods are probably not. It’s not going to make a massive difference to your habits because you probably already unconsciously do that.

To those people recovering, or god help us still in the grip of mental illness that are based on food, it’s going to make their lives hell.

For the folk who really need to make those choices (deep breath)…All the available evidence says that this doesn’t do that.

If you’re the sort of person who looks at the calorie count next to a menu item and thinks, “That’s a handy reminder to make sensible choices, i’ll make a note of that” Then I’m going to suggest that you’re not the target audience for this measure. You can probably already determine what foods are OK, and what foods are probably not. It’s not going to make a massive difference to your habits because you probably already unconsciously do that.

As the sort of person who would look at it and think “oh in which case” the big help here will be things like for instance chicken cesar salad where it sounds healthy, then you realise that it’s actually 900kcal because the cesar dressing is full of oil, there’s bacon the cruton are deep fried etc. I’m unlikely to fall for that particular one but there are plenty of occasions when I’ve looked at stuff I expected to be reasonable and thought “bloody hell, I’ll have the triple cheese burger instead then as that’s the healthy option”

(I would say this is even more true now where a lot of places have a good range of non meat options which tend to be seen as implicitly healthy, some of which are, some are really really not)

Does it not stifle menu choice, an actual deterrent to doing one off specials as the calories need computing.

UK food is too corporate as it is, no imagination, this just makes it even worse as there is yet another bureaucratic hurdle.

an actual deterrent to doing one off specials as the calories need computing.

You’ve never worked in out been to a big chain have you? The one off specials come in the same ready prepared, pre portioned format as the regular menu, they* just happened to be going cheap at a supplier.

*or the constituents of if its a bit flashier a restaurant

If you’re the sort of person who looks at the calorie count next to a menu item and thinks, “That’s a handy reminder to make sensible choices, i’ll make a note of that” Then I’m going to suggest that you’re not the target audience for this measure. You can probably already determine what foods are OK, and what foods are probably not.

I’m sorry but I dissagree, you can’t make a logical choice if you don’t have the most facts possible.

The ‘pub style’ Chicken ceaser salad is a classic example mentioned above… it must be fairly healthy as it’s a salad? right? …WRONG.

I AM the target audience, I want to know whats in my food?!

Isn’t another major issue with this that the whole calorie counting thing has been debunked as crappy science for years now??

As in not all macronutrients are created equal. 20g of sugar from a bag of processed sugar beats will not be processed by your body in the same way as 20g of sugar found within an apple, for example.

.

As in not all macronutrients are created equal. 20g of sugar from a bag of processed sugar beats will not be processed by your body in the same way as 20g of sugar found within an apple, for example.

Well yes, natural unrefined sugar is “better” for you than refined.

Less of all of them is better for you than more of them though.

So yes it’s not the best science but it’s not pointless in the same way that learning electron shells isn’t pointless just because you [now] know there’s orbitals or newtonian gravity because general relativity.

There’s some saying that they’ll find it useful, and there’s others saying saying here’s all the studies that show that evidence says it makes no difference to peoples habits

Are you asserting that the latter proves the former wrong? If so then this is demonstrably untrue as several people have told you they’ll find it useful. Are they lying?

Or, are you saying that these are different things? In that case, good, this is what everyone else has been saying all along. Just because it might be ineffectual (in isolation) in tackling obesity does not make it pointless.

How many people do you suppose use MyFitnessPal to calorie count their intake, for instance? Half a million iPhone users in the UK according to a quick google. They might well not change their restaurant order, but once recorded in the app they know not to go home and have a late-night sweaty kebab. Printing a kCal count makes a near-impossible task trivial.

On the one hand you’re going “this won’t fix anything because Studies, we need to do more” yet on the other you’re dismissing outright the notion that behaviour outside the parameters of a study might exist.

mattsccm
Free Member
Mere pandering to the thick!

I’ve got a degree in food science, and still some interest even though I don’t work in food any longer, but I occasionally look at labels and wonder where the hell all of the hidden calories are coming from. It astonishes me that a coffee can be produced that has 100s of calories, and I simply refuse to believe that red wine can contain any calories at all – it’s far too good for me! And, yes I am thick. 😀

Sucrose, fructose, glucose etc will be processed the same way by your body no matter. If we are talking about the molecule. It doesn’t matter if it’s refined or “raw”.
What come in the apple are all the other nutrients that are not present in the spoonful.

it must be fairly healthy as it’s a salad? right? …WRONG.

Well, the term ‘healthy’ is not really well defined. If you are following a low-carb diet then the salad is a fairly good option because of all the fat and lack of carbs. Unless the dressing is full of sugar, which you wouldn’t know unless it were labelled.

Sucrose, fructose, glucose etc will be processed the same way by your body no matter.

Nnnoot really. In a fruit or vegetable they come packaged up in cellulose and things which means they get digested more slowly and there’s less of it for the same weight of food. The point about refining sugars is that a factory strips away all the cellulose and things which makes it taste different and affect your metabolism (and brain) differently, and invariably much more is present. It’s not just the additional nutrients – otherwise an apple would be the same as a few gummi bears and a vitamin C/folic acid pill, which it’s not.

So whilst a molecule of glucose might interact with your gut wall the same if it’s from a gummi bear or a tomato, everything else happening is so completely different and the overall effect is so different that it’s a completely useless thing to say.

Minimal impact. I have once or twice not opted for a large breakfast on grounds of calories. The opopulaity of an item called the heart attack special at a local roll van suggests most people know the basics and are just choosing to eat what they want rather than calorie count.

They might well not change their restaurant order, but once recorded in the app they know not to go home and have a late-night sweaty kebab.

As someone who tracks what I eat, this is exactly why restaurant labelling is useful to me. It’s unlikely to change what I eat in the restaurant, but it’ll allow me to plan the rest of the day according to my goals.

Are you asserting that the latter proves the former wrong?

No, I’ve not asserted anything. Experts in their fields have, and have demonstrated over and over to govts what works when trying to reduce obesity. Those things are generally ignored as they are difficult, long term, and expensive, whereas printing a number on a menu is simple, eye catching, an best of all; inexpensive.  If it works for you, great! You’ll genuinely be an outlier and probably didn’t need the help in the first place. I’m willing to bet any sum of money you care to wager that it will make zero difference to the growing number of diabetic, and pre diabetic patients my GPs continue to see. After all McDonalds have done this for years now. By that measure it’s cynical at the very best as it smacks of “do something, anything!”

Just because it might be ineffectual (in isolation) in tackling obesity does not make it pointless.

I will give you that it’s not out-right harmful. Although if it’s all they do; knowing that there are more effective ways of tackling this issue, I’d probably want to change my mind on that.

How many people do you suppose use MyFitnessPal to calorie count their intake, for instance? Half a million iPhone users in the UK according to a quick google

Bugger all. I’ve got myfitnesspal on my iphone and I’ve opened it once and never used it.

On the one hand you’re going “this won’t fix anything because Studies, we need to do more” yet on the other you’re dismissing outright the notion that behaviour outside the parameters of a study might exist.

Genuinely I’d be happy to be proved wrong. However I see the result of the environment that we all live in coming (waddling mostly) through the doors of my practice every day, folks that can’t climb stairs, folks that are going blind – because that’s a nice little side benefit of having untreated diabetes. Folks that exclaim astonishment about their food choices having anything remotely to do with their waist size. or have no understanding of “portion control” or notions of “eating a rainbow of colours” or “5 a day” A number on a menu means zip to those folks

I’m angry because the govt knows this will do **** all, and yet here we are. Thanks nick, you’ll process all those diabetic eye screen tests for us? We’ve done our bit…

It’s crap.

Took my parents out this morning to the cafe at Chatsworth Farm Shop – beautiful morning for a scenic drive round the Peak.

Noticed the calories on the menu for the first time – I’ll be honest, when I saw the bacon cob was 580kcal and the full English was 1100, it crossed my mind that I was halfway there so I might as well go for it.

Didn’t stop me swapping the bacon cob for a couple of slices of dry toast, but yes, I was conscious that I was being made aware of what I was ordering, and that it was 11 o’clock and I was about to go halfway through my recommended calories for the day so I should maybe be a bit more disciplined later on. So a definite nudge to consider my behaviour

I think it’s a positive change, the more information people have the more they can make informed decisions. Or choose not to of course, that is their prerogative. It may not solve the obesity problem in one swoop but I doubt anything will and at the end of the day people need to take responsibility for their own choices.

It’s worth noting that the article linked by the OP talks about large chains including the likes of Wagamama, Cote, Ask as well as KFC and McDonalds so this isn’t just about heart attack breakfasts and large donners. When we eat out it’s usually in a middle of the road chain like Wagamama etc and I often wonder how many calories I’m about to consume.

Don’t get me wrong, I don’t like the fact that everything these days seems to be loaded with sugar and other nonsense, and I think it is criminal that a packet of turkey twizzlers is cheaper than a bag of apples, but I don’t know how that can be easily changed. However by helping people understand, loosely, how calorific something is it is possible that by collectively choosing the less calorific option we can drive behaviour from the bottom up. If restaurants see people choosing more “healthy” options they’ll probably expand the menu in that direction.

I’d say this is aimed firmly at the middle 80% (?) of the population, so not those in food poverty with little choice and not those who eat foie gras for breakfast. Hopefully there are other things being done to help the former.

Genuinely I’d be happy to be proved wrong. However I see the result of the environment that we all live in coming (waddling mostly) through the doors of my practice every day, folks that can’t climb stairs, folks that are going blind – because that’s a nice little side benefit of having untreated diabetes. Folks that exclaim astonishment about their food choices having anything remotely to do with their waist size. or have no understanding of “portion control” or notions of “eating a rainbow of colours” or “5 a day” A number on a menu means zip to those folks

I can see your point and understand why you’re angry, but do these people really not understand that eating what they eat is affecting them? Genuine question as I’m astonished that they don’t. While numbers on a menu won’t make any difference to them, what will? Is it the governments fault that these people make bad choices?

 but do these people really not understand that eating what they eat is affecting them?

Yes.

Before COVID we used a run a “meal planner and exercise routine ideas; now you’ve found you’ve got a life limiting disease” Evening with newly diagnosed diabetic patients, and the comments that we used to get are illuminating, if a little depressing. I think it’s very easy to think that everyone has the same access to information that you have, or can understand it, or translate it into action, or can make sensible decisions with faced with choices, or can even make food, or grasp that what you put in your mouth may affect your health.

Genuinely, if you’re reading this article and thinking “Hmmm, seems sensible, I’ll make a note of my food choices”, then you aren’t part of the problem, trust me

Is it the governments fault that these people make bad choices?

It’s the governments responsibility that there’s equally easy access to good food, to enable people to recognise what that is, and educate folks. If they “allow” fast food to be available widely, given they know the damage it causes, then the responsible thing to do is at least provide mitigation against it’s worse effects

EDIT: and don’t get me started on the chubby kids of chubby parents. Those poor little souls are really screwed.

Most USA states have had it for ages. I don’t think it makes any difference if you look at the average American. I personally think it’s useful, if only as an eye-opener to see that some starters have more than 3000 kcal in them.

I don’t really care about the calorie content in the UK but I would like to see salt levels on the menu.

A vaguely related issue. My local corner shop Spar has a bread and baked goods section which sports a notice saying the average adult requires 2000 calories per day. I’m not sure whether to take that as a warning not to overdo it or a suggestion to eat more cakes and buns.

They’ll just claim they offer a delivery service and aren’t responsible for the product though.

Isn’t that the case, though? All those companies do is pick up and deliver orders that people have made via an app, or whatever; how can they possibly be responsible for what people have ordered? Next you’ll be arguing that the internet is responsible for someone on here arguing with you.

FWIW, not only do I not look at ingredients on food packets, I neither know, or care, how many calories are in anything I eat, and never have, ever.

Further more, it matters not a jot that eateries will be putting this info on menus, ‘cos I won’t be paying that any attention either.