doff caps at the Leave Tory government and agree with every self serving UK damaging policy they throw at us.

The Tories have done a brilliant job of framing everything they don’t like as ‘frustrating brexit’, including holding them to their own promises on it!

What’s depressing is that so many people are on the left as well as the right fall for it

So you’ve now got lefties like dazh essentially supporting the Tories rowing back on promises on workers rights-48hr week etc, food, environmental standards, because its frustrating brexit 🙄

I find it astonishing you went to uni but never met an Erasmus student, most of us were keen to be very intimate with them. Never heard of Erasmus babies? My friends have some.

1. From your past posts, which have mentioned organizing school exchanges, I assume you did a modern language related degree. Certainly the only people who I recall going on exchanges when I was at University were the modern linguists and checking on the website of the university I attended for Erasmus opportunities that continued to be the case other than a few law students who could do an exchange to study European law. It is therefore not that surprising.
2. You are older than me and Erasmus didn’t exist when I started at University, it was only adopted in 1987.

Erasmus only covered 2-3% of the undergraduate population, the new scheme aims to cover more than double that number with broader range of opportunities, difficult to see how that is a downgrade.

Erasmus only covered 2-3% of the undergraduate population, the new scheme aims to cover more than double that number with broader range of opportunities, difficult to see how that is a downgrade.

That sounds like a borderline…dare I say it….benefit?

I’m taking cover now

That sounds like a borderline…dare I say it….benefit?

That’s because it’s a promise from Johnson

Kind of like £350m a week for the NHS, no customs checks in Irish sea, you’d have to be deeply naive to believe him at thus point

Mefty also being rather selective with truth, ERASMUS covered 100% of students, only 16,000 from UK took part last year and Turing scheme is aiming for 30,000

ERASMUS funding is doubling next year too & as ever, Turing is not a replacement for ERASMUS, its something that could have been run along side ERASMUS at any time

And Turing does not cover fees for incoming exchange students the was ERASMUS did, which will severely limit those who benefit to the better off & limit the reciprocal nature that was one of ERASMUS strengths

difficult to see how that is a downgrade

Because it is aimed at those that need no financial help. More opportunities for the rich, fewer for the rest of us. Check out its planned budget per student. It’s basically a coordination scheme for the rich. Not saying it’s not useful, but it’s not attempting to offer the support and opportunities that Erasmus+ does.

A year ago Johnson said

“no threat to the Erasmus scheme and we will continue to participate in it”

Boris Johnson, 15 January 2020: "There is no threat to the Erasmus scheme, and we will continue to participate in it.” https://t.co/Zpy39hDRRb pic.twitter.com/Os2362LHNR

— Jon Stone (@joncstone) December 25, 2020

How can anyone trust a word he says

Mefty also being rather selective with truth, ERASMUS covered 100% of students, only 16,000 took part last year and Turing scheme is aiming for 30,000

By covered I was referring to the number who participated as a percentage of the population, more precise wording would have been better. Having said that, you are incorrect to say it covers 100% of students as my old university shows, opportunities where only available to those studying a few subjects.

The government announcement on Turing was 35,000 which is more than twice 16,000.

How can anyone trust a word he says

Whatever assurances he makes, just assume the opposite is about to happen

You’re right they did announce 35k

But without reciprocal funding for incoming students I don’t see how it will work as an exchange scheme (& it was a good income stream for UK Unis-£200m a year)

As I said tho why would you trust a word Johnson says anyway, exactly a year ago he said we definitely wouldnt be leaving ERASMUS can’t believe people still naive enough to trust him!

35k, I’ll believe that once it actually happens

I thought all subjects were available for ERASMUS as long as it OK eads to a degree & uni is recognised

Which subjects were excluded?

I thought this was an apt article to link to this thread

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-55804123

Poor white teens in ‘left behind’ towns not going to uni

I did Erasmus as an Electronic and Electrical Engineering undergrad in 1990.

About 7 of us went to Italy and 3 to France out of a class of 120. Is that about 8%? But then we were engineers, forward thinking internationalists, so we wur.

Which subjects were excluded?

As I said earlier, the only subjects that offered Erasmus modules were languages and law so everything else.

Erasmus was about when I did my mech eng degree in 1999-2003 – a good few people on the course did it. We certainly were all aware of it. Engineering is about as far from modern languages as you can get!

Mefty – are you tell me that I either did languages not engineering or imagined going to Pavia on exchange?

Just asking.

I applied in 1989 and went in 1990 if that helps.

PS if your uni only did it for language and law students then may I suggest it was not the most outgoing of institutions 😉

I too did one of those new fangled law/modern language degrees (in the early 2000s) that offered Erasmus Scheme placements whilst also being Chemical Engineering.

So it’s probably down to the university/department as to whether or not Erasumus was offered. That’s not a problem of the scheme, that’s a problem of the Uni/Department.

So you’ve now got lefties like dazh essentially supporting the Tories rowing back on promises on workers rights-48hr week etc, food, environmental standards, because its frustrating brexit

Hardly, I’m not talking about anything that happens now we’re out, we absolutely have to hold them to their promises. I’m talking about everything that happened between 2016 and 2021. It’s no good pointing out the broken promises and problems though without proposing solutions that aren’t about rejoining or saying ‘if only we hadn’t left’. That only gives the tories the ammo the need.

Engineering is about as far from modern languages as you can get!

That’s fine but if you studied Engineering at my university as I understand it there was no provision for it. In my day, Erasmus didin’t exist but the modern linguists still did year long exchanges but that wasn’t under an EU programme.

Why shouldn’t rejoining be one of the possible solutions Dazh?

I suppose having to join the Euro, and giving up that veto, and paying our subs without a rebate – but still well worth considering and quite popular (surprisingly so) in the country at large.

It’s no good pointing out the broken promises and problems though without proposing solutions that aren’t about rejoining or saying ‘if only we hadn’t left’.

Well, we’re not rejoining, in my opinion. Are we allowed to pull a Farage and talk about Norway and Switzerland and how they are both free and prosperous? Our current situation is utterly shit, but we don’t have to accept it because “it’s Brexit”. It can and should be replaced with far more international cooperation (not just with the EU) rather than the “can’t share, won’t share” cutting the baby in half approach to dealing with the world we’re currently dragging ourselves through.

Mefty in second rate uni shock 😜

Joking aside, don’t assume your experience is average – we all tend to, but we shouldn’t really.

Mefty in second rate uni shock

You’ll struggle to find a first rate university then.

kelvin
Full Member

Well, we’re not rejoining, in my opinion.

This.

Whatever assurances he makes, just assume the opposite is about to happen

The remarkably accurate Johnson predict-o-tron has been remarkably accurate so far.

“More U turns than you’d see on a boxed set of Top Gear DVDs”

Well, we’re not rejoining, in my opinion. Are we allowed to pull a Farage and talk about Norway and Switzerland and how they are both free and prosperous? Our current situation is utterly shit, but we don’t have to accept it because “it’s Brexit”. It can and should be replaced with far more international cooperation (not just with the EU) rather than the “can’t share, won’t share” cutting the baby in half approach to dealing with the world we’re currently dragging ourselves through.

Well yes.

But.

Can you honestly see the current cabinet putting on the big boy pants and getting on with making those sorts of deals?

Or is whinging and moaning about how the big bully boys of the EU aren’t letting us play with their ball after we told them their mother smelled of elderberries, is that more their style?

Realistically, do we think UK will get a chance to turn the Brexit “£350m for the NHS” Bus around before the next election cycle?

mefty

Mefty in second rate uni shock

You’ll struggle to find a first rate university then.

It was meant tongue in cheek, though I do find the antiquated and somewhat insular approach they display interesting.

I deal with the engineering departments of quite a few universities, and most of the better ones are collaborating internationally all the time at multiple levels.

That said it’s also true that a couple of the “best” universities, while great for science, are poor for engineering in my experience.

Realistically, do we think UK will get a chance to turn the Brexit “£350m for the NHS” Bus around before the next election cycle?

If it starts to turn around it is probably only by bouncing up the kerb and backing over large numbers of people (likely deliberately targeting those who would never vote tory anyway).

mefty
Free Member

Having said that, you are incorrect to say it covers 100% of students as my old university shows, opportunities where only available to those studying a few subjects.

In which year? Unless it was recent, it was meaningless.

Also, you need to understand the difference between Erasmus being available to students, and individual universities bothering to support them. Erasmus was available to all students from inception. (and Erasmus was very easy to support; so any university that didn’t bother to do it for Erasmus, certainly isn’t going to bother with Turing)

Having said that, you are incorrect to say it covers 100% of students as my old university shows, opportunities where only available to those studying a few subjects

Just to repeat – this is the fault of your university not giving a toss about your international mobility and learning, not a fault with the Erasmus scheme.

Most Unis have it available to all for all subjects and it was a solution to certain scenarios and was never intended to be used by all students, just those that needed it.

Mefty in second rate uni shock 😜

Joking aside, don’t assume your experience is average – we all tend to, but we shouldn’t really

I went to Queens Belfast, wouldn’t say it was second rate and in all honesty I don’t remember Erasmus ever being mentioned to us. (Biological Sciences)

In reply to Mefty.

1/ I graduated in Geology in 1982

2/ I did another university course in 1988-89 which did indeed have something to do with languages but not much.

I’ve just picked up languages as I’ve gone along, and make an effort to maintain them, some more than others. My German is pretty good because I like German TV, but unfortunately I can’t find the same enthusiasm for Spanish TV so only use it when I’m there.

Realistically, do we think UK will get a chance to turn the Brexit “£350m for the NHS” Bus around before the next election cycle?

Not a chance. It’s going to take a long time for the impact of brexit to sink in. A couple of election cycles at least. Much like any new administration (which is what brexit is), it’ll take a while before any disadvantages can be pinned on it. It also depends very much on what happens between now and future elections. If people have any reason to think the EU are being unreasonable (eg. this argument about vaccines) then it will provide an excuse for the govt to absolve themselves of responsibility.

Besides, there are far bigger issues than brexit for the next election, such as the covid aftermath and its effects on the health service and economy, and the push for scottish independence. Come 2024 we could well see a Catalonia-type standoff between the Uk govt and the SNP, with the queen stuck in the middle. That will consume a lot of energy which will overshadow most other things.

Just to repeat – this is the fault of your university not giving a toss about your international mobility and learning, not a fault with the Erasmus scheme.

Most Unis have it available to all for all subjects and it was a solution to certain scenarios and was never intended to be used by all students, just those that needed it.

I wasn’t ascribing fault. Initially, I was making the point the programme was used by a small percentage of the university population, I estimated 2-3% – it is probably nearer 3% but it is difficult to get breakdowns to make a valid comparison. My wording was imprecise so Kimbers picked me up on it, but he in turn said “ERASMUS covered 100% of students”. It was this statement I was disputing because at my old place only a few courses offered it so it couldn’t be said to have 100% coverage. If you read the thread I think this is reasonably clear.

I don’t know why the University did not have a wider offering, maybe complacency, it doesn’t struggle to find applicants.

I generally try to avoid putting personal details on here – but if it helps I went to Oxford.

Hardly, I’m not talking about anything that happens now we’re out, we absolutely have to hold them to their promises. I’m talking about everything that happened between 2016 and 2021. It’s no good pointing out the broken promises and problems though without proposing solutions that aren’t about rejoining or saying ‘if only we hadn’t left’. That only gives the tories the ammo the need.

there was never any other destination than the hardest of brexits, revoking working time directive will 100% happen, how do you propose to stop it?

Johnsons brexit is a wet dream for the hard right tories

Ed Miliband is on fire. Skewering the #torybrexit #ukip cabal

pic.twitter.com/oirB1zqmGv

— Simon Gosden. Esq. #fbpe 3.5% 🇪🇺🐟🇬🇧🏴‍☠️🦠💙 (@g_gosden) January 26, 2021

My wording was imprecise so Kimbers picked me up on it, but he in turn said “ERASMUS covered 100% of students”. It was this statement I was disputing because at my old place only a few courses offered it so it couldn’t be said to have 100% coverage. If you read the thread I think this is reasonably clear.

Not really no (unless you are happy with pedantic sophistry 😉 ). ERASMUS did cover 100% of students, Oxford took an explicit decision not to offer it to you.

I don’t know why the University did not have a wider offering, maybe complacency, it doesn’t struggle to find applicants.

I generally try to avoid putting personal details on here – but if it helps I went to Oxford.

Amongst people who work in Universities (like me) Oxbridge are rather renowned for their complacent and arrogant approach to most things at the administrative level. Any suggestion that they put some extra effort in or adapt to meet a changing funding landscape is met with an indignant “but we are Oxford!”. Rather amusingly the proportion of funding in the biosci/biomed field that they win at institutional level each year is falling by quite a large chunck as a result (and driving the academics that I collaborate with there up the walls as the infrastructure ages and dies and PhD program funding dries up).

If people have any reason to think the EU are being unreasonable (eg. this argument about vaccines)

You think it unreasonable for the EU to ask where doses have been going when one little country is announcing more vaccines delivered and used than France and Germany put together?

Deliveries don’t match what was announced in the press in terms of deliveries by dates for the countries that have ordered the vaccine, quite normal for the EU to ask a few questions.

but if it helps I went to Oxford

That deserves typing rolling on the floor laughing out longhand. 🙂 You really do fit the stereotype, Mefty.

Oxford took an explicit decision not to offer it to you.

Again if you read my posts you would realise they would need a time machine to have offered it to me.

You think it unreasonable for the EU to ask where doses have been going when one little country is announcing more vaccines delivered and used than France and Germany put together?

I never said that, I said if people think that’s the case (even if it’s not), then it’ll give the tories an excuse to shift the blame for the impacts of brexit. TBH I have no idea what the facts are about the vaccine thing and I certainly don’t think it’s a UK vs EU thing, but you can bet that those with a political axe to grind will do so.

revoking working time directive will 100% happen, how do you propose to stop it?

I don’t think it can be stopped. It can only be revoked by a future labour govt. The best that can be expected is for Starmer to point out that the tories promised not to dilute workers protections, and to promise to reverse it if he wins power.

That’s a good Miliband clip. Reminds me of so many occasions where I’ve banged my head against the wall explaining that this cabinet have stated, in their own words, again and again, their fundamental belief that workers rights should be rolled back… only to have “but the PM says…” repeated back at me. This government is built on his lies, and their ideology… it’s more cake and eat it… keep claiming no lowering of standards, while legislating and preparing to do exactly that. Yet another bait and switch… at some point the government will change from declaring they are not reducing workers rights, to slashing them… without a single night of disturbed guilty sleep between them.