Hard brexit would at least allowed trade on known procedures

Nope. Procedures for UK:EU trade would not have suddenly been made a clear, stable and known thing by not signing a trade deal with the EU. Quite the opposite. People like to claim it would be simpler, on the assumption that trading with the EU in a no deal scenario would be just like trading with, say, the USA… it would not be.

This is hard Brexit.

Molgrips not sure about hardwired to learn,i can put you in a room with these folks and you would do well to catch one word in three but they will understand you.

Your window of “learning” is less than a minute then they start taking the piss. None of them really attended secondary education maybe a day or so a week.

They dont give a **** …. i mean they really dont as no one can actually take anything away from them? They wont get sent to prison they will always get their benefits, the roof over their heads is Mums or Grans or Aunties and their Dad ****ed off years ago and they have enough disposable income to get battered 7 nights a week. Whats not to like and who are we to tell them different.

kelvin
Full Member
Hard brexit would at least allowed trade on known procedures

Nope. Procedures for UK:EU trade would not have suddenly been made a clear, stable and known thing by not signing a trade deal with the EU. Quite the opposite. People like to claim it would be simpler, on the assumption that trading with the EU in a no deal scenario would be just like trading with, say, the USA… it would not be.

this is factually not correct. There are well defined procedures for dealing under WTO terms and acting as true 3rd country traders, as it is all of those normal rules went out of the window with the TCA. I along with a lot of people worked on the basis of hard brexit as it covered what we beleived to be the worst case scenario, including registering for a number of procedures/formalities, only for the TCA to tear all of that and put in place a process that no-one understands.

Don’t get me wrong, not leaving in the first place would have been better with this shiv show in charge..

There are well defined procedures for dealing under WTO terms and acting as true 3rd country traders

They vary with every country. Countries can set their own rules and have their own procedures. WTO isn’t as universal as you suggest. Try selling into the UK from a country that is WTO only (if you can find one), it will be different to selling to another area from that same country. People overstate what WTO is. It is not a fixed set of rules and procedures for business to trade. It is somewhere for countries to complain when other countries are treating them unfairly.

EDIT: sorry, I’ve gone of on one there… yes, it was clear how third countries trade with the EU when using WTO only. Until they changed their MVN rules to deal with us… which they would… but would also have to apply those changes to any other country using WTO only. They’re changing the rules in April and July this year as it is.

None of them really attended secondary education maybe a day or so a week.

You misunderstand, I’m not talking about formal education. Ask them about football or something. People will always learn about what concerns or interests them. So start by asking people what their problems are – most people will be able to start a conversation that way.

Again, I’m not suggesting we simply create another dull school subject. Education is broader than that. But it probably is beyond the wit of the people in charge of the UK since most things appear to be.

Agreed, social engagement and ownership rather than formal political education.

If something was taught in schools then it should probably be more about the rights and responsibilities of citizenship (and why you need both).

Again, I’m not suggesting we simply create another dull school subject. Education is broader than that. But it probably is beyond the wit of the people in charge of the UK since most things appear to be.

Yes, it seems its more important to know what a fronted adverbial is than the best ways to live your life in the 21st century.

They dont give a **** …. i mean they really dont as no one can actually take anything away from them? They wont get sent to prison they will always get their benefits, the roof over their heads is Mums or Grans or Aunties and their Dad ****ed off years ago and they have enough disposable income to get battered 7 nights a week. Whats not to like and who are we to tell them different.

I do wonder sometimes. I’m stressed about future economic impacts, whether European Research grants will be allowed in future, whether it’ll be easier or harder to travel for work or leisure, whether we’re still an attractive destination for people to come and work….

and I look at my dog that has been fed, been for a quick walk, and is presently staring out of the back window thinking about cats probably. Later, she’ll have a long sleep with all legs in the air, another walk, maybe chase her tail round for a bit, get fed again, and then sleep with her legs in the air while her family fuss over her.

I’m not sure evolution isn’t working backwards……

If something was taught in schools then it should probably be more about the rights and responsibilities of citizenship (and why you need both).

There was this thing called Erasmus+, one of the aims of which was about ‘good’ citizenship and stronger ties. Living it, not forcing dull information through instructional teaching.

There was this thing called Erasmus+, one of the aims of which was about ‘good’ citizenship and stronger ties. Living it, not forcing dull information through instructional teaching.

I went to a grammar school then on to Uni and I had never heard of Erasmus+ until I started looking on here. Couldn’t name one person I know who has benefited from it. Not saying its not a good thing or anything just that it doesn’t seem that important to most people. Only 1% of the EU student population even uses it.

Every time I saw a Labour politician it was like reading Dazh on here. Gotta respect the vote.

And given the evidence of the 2019 election result I was proven exactly right. Politicians ignore the people at their peril, and what happened to labour was stark proof of that. And all they were offering was a second vote which would have almost certainly returned the same result. Can you imagine what would have happened had they just ignored it like you suggest?

That stupid, beardy, old Brexiteer **** has got a lot to answer for.

FFS man get over it. I know it’s very easy for you to blame everything on Corbyn the pantomime villain but it’s total bollocks. If anything the 2019 election (as above) proved that his instincts were correct (as they were on many things). It wouldn’t have changed the result, but had he stuck to his guns I’m pretty suree Boris’s majority would have been significantly smaller had he not allowed himself to be swayed by Starmer and McDonnell.

I went to a secondary mod’ and Mr Hughes explained what joining the EU meant to us kids, you can live and work anywhere in Europe (shortly after he got pissed off with teaching thuggy kids and got a job stacking shelves in the local supermarket). I didn’t forget and used that information to make a great life. Junior was born in France, got a French Bac, German Abitur and did Erasmus at the Humbolt in Berlin. Ironically he studied Brexit at Science Po, Paris. All that because Mr Hughes was so excited about Britain having joined the Common Market.

You would perhaps miss what you’ve lost if you’d taken the opportunities you had, Dougie. And depriving others of them is unfair.

However it is safe to also say that the electorate is not fit for purpose?

Are the electorate of sound mind and body? Are they fit to make decisions on behalf of others?

It doesn’t really make any difference as the electorate are given very little power in our ‘democracy’. They get to express an opinion about those in power every few years and every now and again get to decide big stuff like EU membership when those in power think the result is a foregone conclusion. And every rarer still they really get to change things when those in power f*** up and let their guard down. As Chomsky has always said, if voting actually changed anything, it would be illegal.

Can you imagine what would have happened had they just ignored it like you suggest?

Well they (Labour) couldn’t have done much worse. And where are they now? Nowhere. I noticed a Guardian article recently in which the journalist made exactly the same comments about Starmer that I made on STW a couple of weeks ago – it isn’t enough to criticise Boris in question time, Labour needs to promote its own ideas and ideals. I found Stamer’s recent throwing in of his towel on Brexit very disappointing – it goes against current popular opinion because the last time I looked the pro-Brexiters were down to under 40% of those polled.

Most people now realise Brexit was **** stupid.

You would perhaps miss what you’ve lost if you’d taken the opportunities you had, Dougie. And depriving others of them is unfair.

No one is denying that for those who took advantage of free movement it was a great thing, and it’s understandable that they mourn its loss. But the siimple fact remains that outside of leisure activities, hardly anyone in the UK used their rights to live and work elsewhere in the EU, and most of those who did were in the wealthier half of the population.

TBF Ed I don’t think that was Doug’s point. I never did grammar school but went to uni. Similarly I’d never heard of Erasmus either. I don’t begrudge anyone that opportunity it’s just that for a vast number it’s not even in the vocabulary never mind on the radar. I suppose this was always part of the issue – what did the EU ever do for us? Well quite a lot as it turns out. As people will continue to find out going forward.

Anyway, this is about 2020+. Raking over the coals won’t help us now.

Mr Hughes explained what joining the EU meant to us kids

All that because Mr Hughes was so excited about Britain having joined the Common Market.

I thought freedom of movement and residence only came in in 1993?

Anyway, this is about 2020+

Well, Erasmus+ is available to non-EU countries, and we could opt into it again… it’s not something that is necessarily lost to us because of Brexit. We need to stop bending over and accepting anything this government wants to do as inevitable because of Brexit, or non-negotiable because of a vote in 2016.

I thought freedom of movement and residence only came in in 1993?

True, but opportunities opened up sooner than that.

Some classic 80s TV for you…

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Auf_Wiedersehen,_Pet

You would perhaps miss what you’ve lost if you’d taken the opportunities you had, Dougie. And depriving others of them is unfair.

Thats what I’m getting at though, I had never heard of Erasmus, I didn’t know I was depriving anyone of anything. Just asked a colleague who did the same course as me and he hadn’t heard of it either.

I thought freedom of movement and residence only came in in 1993?

No, the rights were introduced progressively in 1961, 1964 and 1968. Before Britain even joined.

Some countries had/have limitiations. It wasn’t a foregone conclusion when I worked in Spain in 89-90 and required a few formalities, but for the UK it’s been the case since joining AFAIK.

Edit to add:

Thats what I’m getting at though, I had never heard of Erasmus, I didn’t know I was depriving anyone of anything.

I find it astonishing you went to uni but never met an Erasmus student, most of us were keen to be very intimate with them. Never heard of Erasmus babies? My friends have some.

But really, it was impossible to follow the Brexit debate without realising you’d be depriving millions of their rights to work, study and live anywhere in Europe. That was exactly what the majority of real life Brexiters I know/knew voted for!

n.b. Someone misunderstood me a couple of pages back, I’ve only sacked off people who voted Brexit and Tory in the last two elections. If that’s childish I’m happy to have retained my youthful attitude to choosing real friends.

I didn’t know I was depriving anyone of anything

And Leave campaigners pointed out that we could still be part of Erasmus plus anyway… part of the bait and switch… much like holding up Norway and Switzerland as examples of prosperous and cooperating nonEU countries before the vote, and then decrying copying any aspect of their position as “not Brexit” afterwards.

So did we not take on Erasmus+ as it would mean that it would take away Uni places from rich students from other countries, willing to pay big money for the places?

Not saying its not a good thing or anything just that it doesn’t seem that important to most people. Only 1% of the EU student population even uses it.

About the same statistics as cyclingism in the UK

Great Britain (2018):

Cycling made up only 1% of the mileage accumulated by all vehicular road traffic. In comparison, cars and taxis accounted for 77%. (TRA 0104; 0402).

And veganism in the UK

The number of vegans in Great Britain quadrupled between 2014 and 2019. In 2019 there were 600,000 vegans, or 1.16% of the population; 276,000 (0.46%) in 2016; and 150,000 (0.25%) in 2014.

Both inversely proportionate to the annoyance of My Most Brexity Friend Forever, who finds (along with immigrants) both cyclists and vegans to always be at ‘plague proportions’, not to mention always ‘threatening the British Way Of Life’. 1% can be a motivating figure.

I can (sort of, if I squint and ignore a lot of stuff) see the Brexity benefits of keeping students on the Isles, as brain-drain would be a loss to The Nation. 1% can make all of the difference. Not to mention British migrations to EU countries have risen 30 per cent since the Brexit referendum. Thank The Good St George we took away their EU citizenships before any more left. As such, the ‘leak’ is mostly plugged for now, but those few from ‘upwardly mobile’ families could still yet defect.

I was never part of ERASMUS, but I got a summer placement during my degree at a lab in majorca, which obviously was made much easier thanks to EU membership & I was only looking for something because my now wife was doing her geology field work in Spain that summer (and both if us were from working class families 1st to go to uni etc)
I did camp America so know there’s a world outside the EU

I was aware of ERASMUS because the top boy on my degree course went on it. Now in work we know that the ERASMUS students are usually the best and genuinely bring skills to the lab & the UK

Genuinely worries me that my kids will find it that much harder to just get a spot in Europe for a summer

The parochialism of brexit, rejecting ERASMUS out of pettiness shows us where we are going 😒

it would take away Uni places from rich students from other countries, willing to pay big money for the places?

They’ll still come. The rich won’t be impacted by any of this.

“Our” kids will no longer receive Erasmus+ help (which includes grants) based on merit, and the proposed “Turin” scheme does not help “our” kids without the means in the same way… it is basically just a way of doing the admin for rich kids to play abroad. As with so many things, Brexit is about favouring the well off over the rest of us, wherever they happen to call home.

Brexit in general has little impact for the well off, its the middle that has lost and ultimately the bottom will suffer the most.

The ease with which i could wander off to the South of France to retire has become difficult but not impossible it will require more money and effort.

My brexity family found it quite amusing that i was annoyed at losing freedom of movement, a small victory for them but in reality i can work around it. My kids have got through Uni and have good jobs/businesses in sectors that are doing well during covid and they are all far enough up the tree to not be impacted too much by the Tories rights removal ideology.

Some members of my family believe that i will end up back at their level due to brexit (that will show you kind of thing) but the reality is that wont happen. If i was a cold hearted **** i could take advantage of deregulation but i won’t.

Anyway as one last funny observation i commented on social media to one member of the Family that the Ashington train line project (or scallies to Newcastle,) had been approved.. the response was “what ****ing train”

Some members of my family believe that i will end up back at their level due to brexit (that will show you kind of thing) but the reality is that wont happen.

I live in the NE and I get the distinct impression this is a big factor in why brexit was heavily supported round these parts.

@Kelvin

You edited my question and answered a completely different one

Apologies.. too many negatives!

I’ll have another go…

So did we not take on Erasmus+ as it would mean that it would take away Uni places from rich students from other countries, willing to pay big money for the places?

We appear not to have taken on Erasmus+ because we want full control and sovereignty*. As a pure point, rather than any practical or financial reasons for universities. Being in Erasmus+ would in no way stop other international students from being taken on by our universities, and taking their higher fees.

*And (conjecture not fact) we have ministers who want the EU to fail, and so are against any scheme that might be seen as fostering good will towards it anywhere.

We have people here involved in university places and funding… hopefully they can shine more light on the effect on universities by the government’s decision… but I don’t think it’s unreasonable to be highly sceptical about it having been made in the interests of attracting more high fee paying students from around the world.

I live in the NE and I get the distinct impression this is a big factor in why brexit was heavily supported round these parts.

Been saying this for ages. Irrespective of whether it’s right a lot of people think brexit will stick it to the cossetted middle classes who swan off to their holiday homes in the med for the winter. All bollocks of course, but it exists and if you want to understand brexit and perhaps reverse it then you need to understand this peculiarly blinkered position. As oldmanmtb says the people at the bottom will ultimately suffer the most, but they don’t care because as far as they’re concerned they’re already being shafted.

Which brings us back to what another poster said… that they’ve never voted Conservative before, but in future they might… in the past one of the reasons for not voting Conservative was to look out for others… and if the thanks others give you is to vote to try and make your life worse, even if it makes their own lives worse as well… out of spite… well, why vote to help them in future? Why not simply vote in the interests of your own family?

Not something I agree with, by the way. We can’t segment society in this way without ever more damaging results for all us, apart from those that are so rich they can rise above society and our shared services and places. By buying a bit of Sark, for example. Or living in a tax haven off the coast of central America. Or getting an EU passport by flashing their cash.

well, why vote to help them in future? Why not simply vote in the interests of your own family?

This is a generalisation, but if you think people in the NE want ‘help’ from those who are better off (especially southerners or foreigners) then you fundamentally don’t understand them. They want neither charity or handouts (some do obviously but they’re still in the minority IMO), all they want is the ability and opportunity to stand on their own two feet and support their families.

Well, that strengthens that poster’s point. Why consider the effect of your vote on those less fortunate than yourself if that is true? No one mentioned handouts. Help includes removing barriers to get on, and strengthening the balance of rights between them and their employers, or the conditions for their company to do business if they’re self employed. Help includes schools, hospitals, roads, trains, employment rights, environmental regulation.

Similarly to the story in the NE, most of my Leics/Notts/Derby family that voted Brexit (who aren’t openly racist) follow the line of “well, it’s OK for you, etc. EU didn’t do owt for us but you’re now cross that we want what you have”.

Totally ignoring the fact that my mum and dad did part time degrees while working to get themselves out of the squallor of working class 1960’s mining area Derbyshire and then pushed my brother and I to education. We were never rich, all of my parents spare cash went on getting us through school and Uni. Summer holidays were a week on Exmoor in a tent.

Brexit relatives are poorly educated but have reasonable jobs on similar wages to my parents and I, but spaff all of their cash on big TVs, clothes, big nights out and holidays in Spain. Yet they are the victims because they didn’t have our opportunities and want to punish us for being “the elite”.

Perfectly summed up by the crab bucket analogy. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crab_mentality

F*ck the lot of ’em. I live in Scotland now, the sooner I can vote SNP and get independance the better. Not a rational decision and it probably isn’t a great idea financially but the thought of being shackled to the (politically weaponised) toxic exceptionalism and xenophobia of England makes me sicker by the day.

This is a generalisation, but if you think people in the NE want ‘help’ from those who are better off (especially southerners or foreigners) then you fundamentally don’t understand them. They want neither charity or handouts (some do obviously but they’re still in the minority IMO), all they want is the ability and opportunity to stand on their own two feet and support their families.

In my experience they want those who started where they are but have done better dragged back down to their level “to teach you where your place is”. And most would take any money shown to them. The folk that you describe, who want a job and security, that I know, didn’t vote for Brexit as they could see it for what it is.

In my experience they want those who started where they are but have done better dragged back down to their level “to teach you where your place is”. And most would take any money shown to them.

The politics of envy isn’t a new thing, but it is indicative of an underlying problem which can’t be swept under the carpet by saying f*** ’em! Do that and it’ll come back to bite you, and just like Trump in the US, brexit was the opportunity for those who feel left behind to do just that. As I’ve been saying, the remain tendency since 2016 to try to reverse or frustrate the brexit decision, combined with the obsession on freedom of movement and how it’s goiing to impact those who voted for it (eg barely disguised excitement that Nissan might close) only serves to reinforce the brexiteer mindset. It’s the ultimate example of divide and rule politics which only benefits those at the very top, and we all walk into the trap like lemmings.

Brexit relatives are poorly educated but have reasonable jobs on similar wages to my parents and I, but spaff all of their cash on big TVs, clothes, big nights out and holidays in Spain. Yet they are the victims because they didn’t have our opportunities and want to punish us for being “the elite”

Yep 100% this my brother & his wife in particular, what I find utterly depressing is that my SIL in particular is teaching this to her kids – she doesn’t believe its her responsibility to teach her kids in lockdown, even whilst on furlough, she has a decent job in sales (tho in trouble at the moment) without any qualifications & credit cards fund her lifestyle, yes the cliche of latest iPhone, 70″ TVs and flash holidays, while the elites make her life hard 😳

frustrate the brexit decision

But just about all policies can be framed as being trying to frustrate the Brexit decision. We’ve been told so many things “have” to happen to get a real Brexit, that weren’t on the voting form, many of which were explicitly ruled out by Leave campaigners. We are no longer an EU member. That isn’t going to change. It doesn’t mean that we have to doff caps at the Leave Tory government and agree with every self serving UK damaging policy they throw at us. Agree with the Leave Tories or else isn’t something any of us little people have to do. Labour politicians may well have to take that path, but there is no onus on any of us to do likewise.