@edukator – you know with the two party first past the post system that really isn’t true, Mays election really wasn’t an affirmation of the referendum result and created chaos that no one wanted, even with Boris’s election more people voted for Labour & libdem than the conservatives. Part of me believes that the referendum was about people having a vote that actually counted, rather than being a “waste of effort” in constituencies where nothing but a major swing would effect the result. I know a few people who voted for brexit, that’s their choice I wouldn’t be as childish as to delete them from my address book.

Thing is there were three chances to vote remain. One referendum (which wasn’t binding) and two general elections (which were binding).

Politics doesn’t work like that Ed, especially not UK politics. If you want to the elections as simple systems (which they’re not) then it’s easy to see that as political parties run on a range of policies and values which cannot be separated, even a rational remain voter could end up voting for a non-remain party. I did.

In Engerland at the last general election there was only one explicitly pro-remain party you could vote for, and that was led by an apparently demented primary school teacher and would have been a completely wasted vote.

Hence we ended up having the ‘fact’ thrown back at us by the Brexiteer headbangers that most people voted for a party that was ‘pro-Brexit’

And that just shows you how unfit for the 21st century our archaic FPTP electoral system is

Hence we ended up having the ‘fact’ thrown back at us by the Brexiteer headbangers that most people voted for a party that was ‘pro-Brexit’

Because it’s true. There were alternatives but people dismissed them as for example “demented priamry school teacher” which compared with how you could describe th eother candidates is frankly flattering. Voters got caught up in the not wasting your vote rubbish because as we discussed at the time, people need to vote with their convictions and not tactically because given the that one vote counts for nothing voting tactically is stupid. Always vote for the person/party you would like to win, otherwise they have no chance and you’ll get something you didn’t want but voted for – a bit like Briexit for many it would appear.

The FPTP system isn’t ideal but it’s the way people use it that’s the problem.

There are flaws in every system, my perfect system would be a direct presidential election using the French system of rounds and a parliament elected in exactly the same way as the European parliament with its proportional representation. If you want that, never vote Labour or Tory.

It’s not how UK elections work, and I’m sure you know that. There are people voting SNP who don’t particularly want Scottish independence. People voting for the Conservative and Unionist Party who don’t give a damn whether Scotland and Northern Ireland leave the Union or not. For example.

There are people voting SNP who don’t particularly want Scottish independence.

Safe in the knowledge that come the referendum on Scottish idependence they can vote against.

Anybody who wanted to remain in the last two election and realised it was the only issue worth voting on given the consequences would have given up their traditional voting habits and voted for a reamin party. Too many didn’t.

We’re just repeating the conversations we had before the last two general elections. People on this forum for whom Brexit was the issue voted for a party they knew would go through with Brexit. You can try to explain that with any excuses you wish but you’ll fail. You could have voted to stop Brexit but didn’t so accept your part of the responsibility. Unless of course you voted SNP, Plaid, Lib Dem…

Check back, at each election I said that if I’d had a vote in England it would have been Lib Dem, in Wales Plaid and in Scotland SNP. Those were the only logical votes possible for anyone who realised that Brexit was the issue that made all the others minor details not worth considering when putting an X on the ballot paper.

People wil come to realise that as they are realising that voting to leave the EU wasn’t so clever after all, whatever their reasons for doing so.

Safe in the knowledge that come the referendum on Scottish idependence they can vote against.

You do know that Labour were offering a referendum on EU membership at the last election, yes?

Unless of course you voted SNP, Plaid, Lib Dem…

You can strike Lib Dem of that list. Swinson had the chance to get a second referendum but instead though she could be prime minister so forced an election.

had the chance to get a second referendum

When? How?

You do know that Labour were offering a referendum on EU membership at the last election, yes?

Which fell a long way short of opposition to the Tory policy of get Brexit done. Every time I saw a Labour politician it was like reading Dazh on here. Gotta respect the vote. It didn’t ring sincere given the Labour eagerness to triger Art. 50.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/jan/19/corbyn-to-impose-three-line-whip-on-labour-mps-to-trigger-article-50

HURRAH FOR BREXIT!

Thank you for contacting Orbea, Martin!

We have a specific Kit reference for this spare part, X0150000.

At this moment we do not have a webshop available for the UK due to the Brexit. We are working to adapt the webshop to the new regulations.

If you are registered on our website, you will receive an email once the webshop is available again.

At the moment no shipments are being made but you can go to one of our distributors and indicate the reference of the kit. They will be able to request it and we will send it to you once shipments are restarted.

Best regards,

You do know that Labour were offering a referendum on EU membership at the last election, yes?

From the day of the referendum result when Grandad called for article 50 to be triggered immediately, right the way up to us leaving the EU the policy of the labour party (if you could actually call it a policy with a straight face) was a total and utter ****ing shambles. That stupid, beardy, old Brexiteer **** has got a lot to answer for.

Voters got caught up in the not wasting your vote rubbish because as we discussed at the time, people need to vote with their convictions and not tactically because given the that one vote counts for nothing voting tactically is stupid.

I live in an ultra-marginal seat (present majority: 102 votes) which regularly changes hands between the 2 main parties. If I voted for the Lib Dems, I might as well vote Tory. A totally wasted vote

Not disagreeing Binners, just a reminder that those that voted Labour at the last election did so against a “don’t know what we want, but we’ll give you a referendum on it” platform. And that most seats are a two horse race… that a smaller party has policies on any particular matter is irrelevant if you want you vote to influence who your seat sends to parliament.

Just a thought as i think most agree that the current government is not fit for purpose….

However it is safe to also say that the electorate is not fit for purpose?

Are the electorate of sound mind and body? Are they fit to make decisions on behalf of others? Evidence suggests not (think Brexit, Trump, Covid compliance)

Good argument that democracy is working just that maybe its not producing ythe best outcomes for its electorates?

Said it before but i continue to be impressed by the level of Lemming like behaviour of the majority of the great unwashed (fully paid up member i might add)

Brexit 2020+

Just saying.

However it is safe to also say that the electorate is not fit for purpose?

Been saying that for ages. That’s why we need political and media education.

That’s why we need education

Here’s a Brexit good news film!

Linky

Overview linky

I watched the first 5 seconds and decided it’s all about how Germany has “caved in” because it cant sell any cars here or something and so are making barrier controls that go up and down faster to free up the bananas and Cheshire cheese, etc, etc.

It’s in foren, though, and Google seems to mistranslate the title as “Hard Brexit – The coup of the rich elite”.

I feel like the UK could be totally transformed for the better if we got rid of the First Past The Post voting system and replaced it with proper Proportional Representation. Voters would be more free to vote on policy, and a wider range of views could be represented. Unfortunately it’s not in the interests of those in power to meaningfully reform the electoral system. Pretty sure we would have avoided Brexit too.

Molgrips i think its political and media re-education camps we need…

Probably be able to subcontract it to some Chinese fellas….. apparently they are happy to deliver it in other countries.

More seriously as i said back up the thread i am not sure “thinking” folks actually understand just how big that education gap actually is in certain communities. I have family who watch no TV news, no online news, read no papers, dont own a book, and have a reading age of 9. They live only in a facebook bubble and talk in accents and use words that people only understand within 10 miles.

Its completely ****ed and i dont think it will ever be fixed.

I got bollocked on here by the mods (rightly so) for using a term in reference to these people – they are my family but they are so far adrift of what constitutes a productive human being it is beyond sad. The current generation of my family in that community is almost unemployable. Education in respect to politics, economics and media is like trying to teach them to speak Chinese.

plenty of people at the FCO were giving similar advice, with the experience and knowledge to know just how the EU works, how they do deals, and the decisions the UK needed to make (but avoided) before attempting a deal

Anecdotal, not factual.
Even if some civil servants had some understanding of how the EU do trade deals that was of limited/no use unless they had been part of EU negotiating teams; it’s a bit like saying that I can build a car engine because I know how it works – that’s patently absurd.

That’s why we need education

We don’t need no education
We don’t need no thought control

I listened to the new episode of “The Bunker” podcast yesterday with Nick Cohen (observer) and its a damning review of where England is heading,

WEEKEND SPECIAL: England is utterly divided over class, geography, language, but how far back do these splits go?@jameshawes2, author of 'The Shortest History of England', tells @NickCohen4 about England's murky past and even murkier future.

Listen: https://t.co/DyCBsfJxCP pic.twitter.com/m5YekOhyud

— The Bunker: Politics on Lockdown (@bunker_pod) January 24, 2021

that was of limited/no use unless they had been part of EU negotiating teams

Agreed. That is why I said what I said.

dismissed, sidelined and neutered

The civil service were up to the job. Anyone who made it clear what the negotiations required was pushed aside, or out.

More seriously as i said back up the thread i am not sure “thinking” folks actually understand just how big that education gap actually is in certain communities.

It’s not so much the amount of education as people’s attitudes towards education, knowledge and the ability to think rationally. Someone on our local FB page asked which direction to start walking to get to a local castle, it’s about 3 miles away and across fields and stuff. I asked if she had a map – no. I mean, what? Generally wandering in the rough direction isn’t going to get you anywhere other than lost.

That’s why we need education

Education in general isn’t enough, as we can see by the fact that we all get 11 years of it as kids and we’re still in this mess. We need to show people how to engage in society and how to think about what they see and hear.

Education in respect to politics, economics and media is like trying to teach them to speak Chinese.

It doesn’t have to be. Most people have a gripe about their lives – start there. I’m not talking about GCSE curricula here. Call it ‘citizenship’ or something if that helps.

I watched the first 5 seconds and decided it’s all about how Germany has “caved in” because it cant sell any cars here or something

It’s about nothing of the sort, it’s about how a few super-rich financed Brexit and have hi-jacked it to their own ends. That’s four minutes in, I’ll keep watching only another 40″

Edit: by 13″ in we’ve covered the donors , the desire to create an off-shore tax haven, a desire to be free of food standards and workers rights, now it’s going into how that was achieved and the role of lobby companies (who refused to speak to WDR)

Continuing the WDR report it goes into the reasoning between hard Brexit and the EU insistance of a level playing field in any Brexit deal.

Then about Schenker (sp,) from Oxford and Mogg and how a hard Brexit would be beneficial with a neo-liberal neo-liberated UK. And the journalists try to contact the people who financed the research and the lobby groups behind it. The way people financed think tanks in order to secretly finance pro-Brexit research groups. There’s a problem with transparency in UK politics because the people financing remain secret.

Then the Good Friday Agreement and the Brexit threat to it. Schenker Singhmm (sp?) was sent to NI. The ERG just dimissed the Irish border problem. Now into attacks on May’s government to get a harder Brexit.

Now into the Brexit party and its 10 million secret funding. It was easy for the Brexit Party to formulate policy because as Richard Tice says , it was just him and Farrage doing it, and they ripped the Conservative party to bits.

And in the end Johnson signed a hard Brexit, and it’ll just bring hardship and poverty. But the fight will go on and we’ll see how a few rich Etonians have changed the UK in the coming years.

Verdict: It’s what the BBC should be showing.

Molgrips with all due respect and i have read your posts for many years and know you speak much sense but if you think these people are even remotely interested in Citizenship let alone reading/listening to “stuff” let alone grasping it… you need to get out more.

Above with all due respect to you.

What we need is a electoral system fit for the 21st century not the 19th – voter engagement and education will follow

Certainly in Scotland the rather complex forms of PR ( sort of) used has forced the electorate to become more sophisticated ” 2nd vote green” etc there is now a greater tendency to vote strategically. Of course not everyone does so but the tendency is there

Pretty sure we have PR in N.Ireland, not sure I would call it a very good system either.

PR, first past the post, will make no difference once NI and Scotland have jogged off.

Engerland for the Engerlish… i shall have to find somewhere else to live.

NI has a mandatory coalition. It’s difficult… but alternatives were, er, problematic. STV to select members is highly preferable to FPTP… stating you preferences makes more sense to me than people never voting for their first preference because they want to stop their least preferable candidate and are scared of wasting their vote.

It looks like credit card fees are going up

https://www.politico.eu/article/mastercard-fees-to-increase-fivefold-for-uk-eu-trade/?fbclid=IwAR1SJDQtSLkkwKzVpkeeM-UVVTLyucxeqnGZbasu6Ei6lzfSF4L0etsh_qg

It looks like credit card fees are going up

“Some people might put this change down to Brexit, but it is actually just greed,” Joel Gladwin, of the Coalition for a Digital Economy, told the FT.

Someone needs to smell the coffee.

they’re putting fees up because they can, and that change is down to brexit

Everyday is new day of fu##wittery trying to trade with the EU (and vice versa) now. We’ve now got local customs officals all over Europe (and the UK) who can’t agree what they should be doing, and then realising there is a system that sould have been turned on 3 weeks ago to deal with imports – hauliers flatly refusing to travel to the UK whcih affects all backloads. Freight rates sky rocketing as those vehciles you do book, now have to travel to different ports than normal.

If we had agreed on either a proper deal, or hard brexit, we would have been in a better position than we are now! Hard brexit would at least allowed trade on known procedures, as it is it’s a bastardisaiton of everything you can possibly imagine. HMRC are being utterly useless at the moment, having withdrawn various approvals becasue they were linked to EU systems, and then not tell anyone untill it was too late. I’ve spoken to a number of large organisations who are frnakly making up as hey go along as the requiremtns seem to change daily..

this current gov have completely stuffed us – and im normally a conservative..

if you think these people are even remotely interested in Citizenship let alone reading/listening to “stuff” let alone grasping it… you need to get out more.

I know of people such as you describe. People are hard-wired to learn, it’s all about how you frame the subject. I know this because of how much I get out 🙂

But this is a digression.

PR, first past the post, will make no difference once NI and Scotland have jogged off.

Engerland for the Engerlish… i shall have to find somewhere else to live.

And the Welsh forgotten as usual 🙂

HMRC are being utterly useless at the moment, having withdrawn various approvals becasue they were linked to EU systems, and then not tell anyone untill it was too late.

I can assure you that government **** wittery left HMRC in the dark to the last minute as well, apart from giving them a hospital pass at the end

This is the government that gave the Chief Exec of HMRC 30 minutes warning that they were about to announce the furlough and other schemes that they would have to create and bring in

Yup.

And I used to bang on about the systems involved not being up to the job, or even completed in time, years ago in the old thread… but politicians know better, don’t they. Led by donkeys. Anyway, to save me doing it all again, read this Twitter thread instead…

Moreover I should add Chief was meant to be replaced by CDS years ago, but the government have not put the resources in to make this happen. This is yet another failure on their part and a point a very senior member HMRC agreed with just yesterday. 20/22

— Daniel Lambert (Wines). 🇪🇺🇫🇷🏴󠁧󠁢󠁷󠁬󠁳󠁿🍇🥂 (@DanielLambert29) January 23, 2021