Thanks for explaining, no need for the emotive part.

I’m “emotive” because for +4 years I’ve had to listen to folk spouting stuff, sh*t and/or lies about stuff they haven’t a clue about and/or don’t fully understand – and them getting an equal platform to experts and the like.

What if we were to use NHS data only in the UK for UK pharma companies?

Define “UK pharma companies”, 100% ownership by UK tax paying individuals or just with a nameplate here (and a mass of variations in-between)?

I’m not saying its (immigration) as easy as before but it is still possible, we have just changed the market we appeal to.

Like who?

https://migrationobservatory.ox.ac.uk/resources/briefings/who-migrates-to-the-uk-and-why/

Another foreseeable brexit bonus. Scottish seafood industry is collapsing due to brexit delays. what a win for the langustines and scallops that are now free to run around on the seabed.

A billion pound a year industry is going to be wiped out. thanks. 80+ % of the seafood used to go to the EU as fresh not frozen produce. Very high quality stuff it was too and highly prized. Now its more expensive and delayed so the EU consumers would have to pay more for a poorer quality product. Obviously they are not doing so

Thanks a bunch brexiteers

I don’t think data needs to include personally identifiable data in order to be clinically useful, does it?

Unfortunatly it does. It needs to be very finely detailed ( granular in modern speak) that granular data means that in some areas / categoies there are so few people in one data set that they are identifiable.

Right handed dark haired men with viking genes of english origin in leith soon identifies me

and them getting an equal platform to experts and the like

I don’t have an equal platform to experts and have not tried to state any facts. I’m asking questions on a forum, this place isn’t the news or a widespread platform, its to ask questions, rightly or wrongly.

I wouldn’t consider anyone on this thread an expert on Brexit either, no-one is. We have experts on other threads, the coronavirus one for example, nobody on this thread has exhibited as much expertise as individuals on that one.

Dougiedogg – massive investment from government – apart from the tories will not do this it falls foul of not only the EU deal but also the japanese and chinese ones IIRC.

Maybe they can catch the langoustines using drones and then put them on the Blockchain. You know, do things differently.

Glib comments aside it is again so disappointing to see how this is playing out. Played for politics with the unfortunate feature that unlike other failed or delayed projects the failure doesn’t mean life goes on, but that these barriers to trade are now baked in by the “total victory” approach. And we watch businesses die a slow death while **** like Hannan say we should scrap regulations. Not as a fix, but just because.

Christ alive these people.

I’m not saying its (immigration) as easy as before but it is still possible, we have just changed the market we appeal to.

Like who?

https://migrationobservatory.ox.ac.uk/resources/briefings/who-migrates-to-the-uk-and-why/

Non-EU migrants, the 62%, key point 1 and EU migrants of course who fit visa requirements. My point is that migration will continue it has not been stopped as a previous poster stated.

Don’t tell the brexit voters that or we’ll have to leave the rest of the world as well.

I’m “emotive” because for +4 years I’ve had to listen to folk spouting stuff, sh*t and/or lies about stuff they haven’t a clue about and/or don’t fully understand – and them getting an equal platform to experts and the like.

I’m just as angry as you but there’s a time and a place – this isn’t it.

I’m not saying its (immigration) as easy as before but it is still possible, we have just changed the market we appeal to.

It’s also less attractive. You could previously decide to move here from the EU, and you were on the same terms as everyone else. You also had security, because you had the right to be here, which. meant you had confidence to move your family and settle down. If you lost your job, or didn’t like it, you could find another.

However, if you were here on a visa, that’s tied to a job so that meant if you lose your job you have to go home – or if you really don’t like it you also have to go home. This is ok for young people who are mobile but not great if you have to uproot your children from their schools and the environment they’ve been born into and know. In practice, the people who can move and have confidence of support from their employers are the middle class high earners. That means that the opportunities to move abroad, experience cultures and even earn better money are much more limited if you aren’t well off, which is a terrible shame.

The less attractive nature of migration under the new visa scheme means that employers will have to pay more for those roles so that people accept the downsides. That’ll cost our businesses more, and companies that can’t afford it won’t be able to take advantage of skills. This will disadvantage small businesses, particularly specialist ones. And these are the kind of businesses we want to encourage. Something will need to be done to address this.

The sh*t hit the fan now.
https://amp.theguardian.com/business/2021/jan/08/percy-pigs-in-ireland-hit-by-brexit-red-tape-as-m-and-s-warns-of-tariffs

The less attractive nature of migration under the new visa scheme means that employers will have to pay more for those roles so that people accept the downsides.

They don’t need to accept the downsides.

I know a few bonafide geniuses in the IT world, from nonEU countries… they were working here, but have since moved to Germany, Netherlands and Sweden. If you’re in demand, you want to bring your kids up somewhere their lives are secure. We are less inviting than elsewhere. The RoW can see what is happening here. Messaging and new laws aimed at the anti-immigrant domestic sentiment that delivered Brexit and this Vote Leave government is heard worldwide.

My point is that migration will continue it has not been stopped as a previous poster stated.

Lets take nurses as an example. the NHS used to recruit a lot of nurses from the EU mainly from spain where due to their internal politics they train far more than they need. Now we no longer can. Nurses do not meet the visa requirements for coming to the UK IIRC. EU nurses no longer want to work in the UK. We still do not train enough nurses and there are massive shortages. No one is going to come from the antipodes or the US to nurse in the UK so its indian sub continent, philipines etc where us taking their nurses damages their healthcare.

Of course this is also expensive and bureaucratic instead of just jumping on a plane. so immigration in nurses has not been stopped but by heck its reduced dramatically with a lot of barriers that never used to be there. Who suffers from this? the spanish nurses who can no longer get jobs and the UK patients who do not have nurses and the fqr away countries that get their staff stripped.

A few years ago one NHS trust ran a recruitment campaign for ITU nurses from the carribean. So many nurses from one island moved that the islands only ITU had to be closed

akira
Full Member
Don’t tell the brexit voters that or we’ll have to leave the rest of the world as well.

Posted 13 minutes ago

Ah, this is why Johnson was talking about more investment into space then. The U.K. is leaving the world and heading into the Solar System, free to deal with all the other open markets outside Earth. Britannia will soon rule the [gravity] waves, unchained from the gravity well.

Nurses do not meet the visa requirements for coming to the UK IIRC

But in theory that could be changed – the point about the new immigration system is that it can respond to demand. I’m not supporting the government on this by the way just to be clear – just pointing out the intended operating model.

We are less inviting than elsewhere.

Yes, and this will lead to a long term slide, IMO. I mean yeah, we could start investing in education, training and industrial expertise but we won’t, will we? Britain never has done anything like this in the past, so why would we start now? We’ll just adjust the immigration requirements and attempt to keep bringing people in, cos it’s the easiest way. Sod the long term consequences. Each government will just change the numbers a bit.

the point about the new immigration system is that it can respond to demand

No, the point is that it doesn’t respond to demand. I think what you mean is that it can be changed when/if there is the political will… which may be influenced by changes in demand.

^^ Changes in demand or simply to appease a percentage of the populous unfortunately.😕

But in theory that could be changed – the point about the new immigration system is that it can respond to demand.

… And changed back again. And made different in the devolved countries. And changed again.

So last week you are A-OK but then take a new job and move hospital; but wait! You cant! ‘Cos the point system you entered with is not the same as it is now so it’s ‘sling yer bloody hook’ time.

“We’re moving to the UK as daddy’s got a new job!”
“Hurrah! How long for?”
“**** knows.”

In true Brexiteer fashion, the line that frictionless trade would be maintained has now become ‘we always said there would increased paperwork and checks at the ports’

No, you didn’t. You said the polar opposite of that, you lying ****s

That should be challenged and an independent press would do that. There is no fully independent mass media any more; the BBC are scared they will have the license fee removed and have a political appointee as a DG. The other news print media is right wing, broadly supportive and/or steered by people that Boris has to please.

The internet? Why the hell would they give a shit if people disagree with them in the comments section of the Guardian or Mumsnet?

Kelvin,

Not a glib response in my view. A factual one backed up by what we’re doing in the business I work in. We service and support niche manufacturing equipment and many of our customers are on the mainland. It’s clear that in order to ensure our future we need to diversify. This is certainly something we could have done while in the EU but didn’t. We have a product we’ve prototyped, proven, and offered to our r&d group (US) and for ‘reasons’ they’ve turned their nose up at it. My boss has stick his hand in his pocket and bought a 3d printer which we’re using to make a very lightweight CNC mill which will help facilitate low level manufacture of this thing. It’ll go we reckon.

This isn’t a model everyone can follow, it’s not something that can be applied to the country’s economy as a whole, but if it keeps our office going or even growing I’ll take that.

I’ll join in the pissing and moaning about brexit and the shower of **** that we laughably refer to as government but that’s not going to pay my mortgage.

That this discussion is revolving around data shows how weak the arguments are around ‘what we could do differently’.

It’s worth remembering that our economy is built on making things/fishing – apparently – (which we have to sell), or providing services (which someone needs to buy).

Both those elements now have significant barriers in front of them that will hinder businesses and will deter investment in the future. That’s why Mrs Thatcher wanted the barriers removed.

Offering to sell outfits information around what pills we’re popping and how it turned out is not a replacement for trade in goods and services and isn’t really what anyone would call an effective long-term strategy. If you want deep data you’ll find Google/Facebook/Twitter know far more about us than our institutions do already.

We can and should be proud of our country without boo-ing and hiss-ing at the pantomime villains over the water, or dissing their culture. I’m cool with them, I expect them to be cool with me.

We can nuture talent, invest in ideas and grow businesses and we always could – that’s what Hope and Cotic and Bird and Stanton and loads of other bike and non-bike related businesses did and will continue to do. The people who didn’t always found a reason to explain why they didn’t and I don’t see any reason why that won’t continue.

All this suggests that one way or the other in the long run we will have to get back into bed with the EU, at least in the form of a EEA and Customs Union. The arguing will boil down to what we call it and whether it sounds sufficiently ‘British’, even Churchilian. Let’s say it ends up as the ‘GBEA’.

I have no problem with companies being innovative and coming up with all sorts of products that haven’t yet been thought of, particularly in the green space where the future clearly lies. If that’s built off exploitation, weaker employment rights and a poorer quality of life when it is already a struggle for many, which I suspect it might then I will continue to argue in favour of us being in the EU.

On the flipside, I would welcome any ideas from here that increase worker protections, improve our environment and our quality of life. That’s the Brexit promise – I don’t think it’s unreasonable to ask for evidence it’s even possible, let alone going to happen.

Dougiedogg – massive investment from government – apart from the tories will not do this it falls foul of not only the EU deal but also the japanese and chinese ones IIRC.

+ every member of the WTO.

Almost every author of Britannia Unchained – a 2012 Tory pamphlet arguing for radical free market solutions – is the cabinet: Priti Patel, Dominic Raab, Liz Truss and now Kwasi Kwarteng.

Only Chris Skidmore is not in government (he was universities minister until last year)

— Sebastian Payne (@SebastianEPayne) January 8, 2021

The last piece of the jigsaw…

At least the NI conundrum was solved… no need to have to think about that any more… it was easy after all. How could we have doubted those who said it would be so simple?

‘we always said there would increased paperwork and checks at the ports’

Not half (from another forum):

Nearly all the groupage lorries are on stop.
Full loads are fine. For example BMW sending gearboxes to Swindon.
But mixed freight isn’t going anywhere.
A typical parcel trunker lorry could have 3000 different consignments on the same load. That is 3000 new bits of paperwork to check. 3000 EORI numbers to be chased.

And that applies into NI from Scotland as well.

We can and should be proud of our country without boo-ing and hiss-ing at the pantomime villains over the water, or dissing their culture. I’m cool with them, I expect them to be cool with me.

If only more people had taken that mature approach over the last 20-30 years.

Spare a thought for the poor Brits Abroad.
John Lewis and Fortnum and Mason have stopped shipping to Europe.

mariner
Free Member
Spare a thought for the poor Brits Abroad.
John Lewis and Fortnum and Mason have stopped shipping to Europe.

That will be the Brexit voting father of one of my colleagues who has had to apply for Spanish citizenship because he spends most of the year in his Spanish home. ****

Spare a thought for the poor Brits Abroad.
John Lewis and Fortnum and Mason have stopped shipping to Europe

No Waitrose sausages in the British Supermarket in Portimão today 😔 my Saturday fry up won’t be the same. Got some reduced priced black pudding though but the shelves were definitely looking bare.

You can’t export fresh sausages from UK to EU now. The Irish will be sorting you out for fry ups soon enough.

kelvin
Full Member
You can’t export fresh sausages from UK to EU now. The Irish will be sorting you out for fry ups soon enough.

First real upside?

More frozen sausages for lawns over here and the EU?

First real upside?

More frozen sausages for lawns over here and the EU?

Unfortunately the massive lawns of the people most deserving of the frozen sausage treatment will be behind 20 foot 10,000 volt electric fences. Whilst patrolled just outside by armed minimum wage slaves that have been coerced into the work through desperation. See also orchards, fishing lakes, woods, moats etc.

I see the government’s lifted the restriction on the EU-banned bee-killing nicotinoid pesticides as well.

I see the government’s lifted the restriction on the EU-banned bee-killing nicotinoid pesticides as well.

Have you got a link for that – god knows what shit they are rushing through under cover of Covid deaths and the American chaos, needs bringing into the light!

https://thefarmingforum.co.uk/index.php?threads/beet-growers-have-a-neonic-seed-treatment-for-2021.336040/
Reading between the lines it appears to have come from the top down (ie British Sugar have asked for it rather than the farmers themselves). A bit of background reading suggest BS were very anti-brexit as they fear for the survival of the industry as the protections against cheap cane sugar from Brazil etc will corner the UK market. Maybe the UK Gov have acknowledged this for the time being and are acting on this basis? Either way, it is not really surprising and is hopefully very very limited and subject to strict conditions as the article would suggest.

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2017/mar/27/brexit-sugar-beet-cane-tate-lyle-british-sugar

Tate and Lyle were huge supporters of Brexit and are also big donors to the Tory Party

Tate & Lyle: Brexit-backing firm that donated to Tories set to save £73m from trade change

And so the frog-boiling begins. The slow, almost imperceptible drip-drip-drip of regulations and rights being quietly binned

I see the government’s lifted the restriction on the EU-banned bee-killing nicotinoid pesticides as well.

This is where the divergence starts, it ticks the divergence and sovereignty box for the brexiteers and throws a much needed bone to the farmers. Just at the expense of the environment eh?

Yes, but Tate and Lyle are the complete opposite to British Sugar. Sugar from Tate and Lyle isn’t grown in the UK and has to get past EU quotas of non-EU produce to get here. Hence why they were so pro Brexit. And why British Sugar (which grows sugar beet in the UK and is threatened by T&L imports post Brexit) are keen to have treated seed so that the UK sugar industry doesn’t collapse.