Why shouldn’t rejoining be one of the possible solutions Dazh?
I suppose having to join the Euro, and giving up that veto, and paying our subs without a rebate - but still well worth considering and quite popular (surprisingly so) in the country at large.
It’s no good pointing out the broken promises and problems though without proposing solutions that aren’t about rejoining or saying ‘if only we hadn’t left’.
Well, we're not rejoining, in my opinion. Are we allowed to pull a Farage and talk about Norway and Switzerland and how they are both free and prosperous? Our current situation is utterly shit, but we don't have to accept it because "it's Brexit". It can and should be replaced with far more international cooperation (not just with the EU) rather than the "can't share, won't share" cutting the baby in half approach to dealing with the world we're currently dragging ourselves through.
Mefty in second rate uni shock 😜
Joking aside, don’t assume your experience is average - we all tend to, but we shouldn’t really.
Mefty in second rate uni shock
You'll struggle to find a first rate university then.
kelvin
Full MemberWell, we’re not rejoining, in my opinion.
This.
Whatever assurances he makes, just assume the opposite is about to happen
The remarkably accurate Johnson predict-o-tron has been remarkably accurate so far.
"More U turns than you'd see on a boxed set of Top Gear DVDs"
Well, we’re not rejoining, in my opinion. Are we allowed to pull a Farage and talk about Norway and Switzerland and how they are both free and prosperous? Our current situation is utterly shit, but we don’t have to accept it because “it’s Brexit”. It can and should be replaced with far more international cooperation (not just with the EU) rather than the “can’t share, won’t share” cutting the baby in half approach to dealing with the world we’re currently dragging ourselves through.
Well yes.
But.
Can you honestly see the current cabinet putting on the big boy pants and getting on with making those sorts of deals?
Or is whinging and moaning about how the big bully boys of the EU aren't letting us play with their ball after we told them their mother smelled of elderberries, is that more their style?
Realistically, do we think UK will get a chance to turn the Brexit "£350m for the NHS" Bus around before the next election cycle?
mefty
Mefty in second rate uni shock
You’ll struggle to find a first rate university then.
It was meant tongue in cheek, though I do find the antiquated and somewhat insular approach they display interesting.
I deal with the engineering departments of quite a few universities, and most of the better ones are collaborating internationally all the time at multiple levels.
That said it’s also true that a couple of the “best” universities, while great for science, are poor for engineering in my experience.
Realistically, do we think UK will get a chance to turn the Brexit “£350m for the NHS” Bus around before the next election cycle?
If it starts to turn around it is probably only by bouncing up the kerb and backing over large numbers of people (likely deliberately targeting those who would never vote tory anyway).
mefty
Free MemberHaving said that, you are incorrect to say it covers 100% of students as my old university shows, opportunities where only available to those studying a few subjects.
In which year? Unless it was recent, it was meaningless.
Also, you need to understand the difference between Erasmus being available to students, and individual universities bothering to support them. Erasmus was available to all students from inception. (and Erasmus was very easy to support; so any university that didn't bother to do it for Erasmus, certainly isn't going to bother with Turing)
Having said that, you are incorrect to say it covers 100% of students as my old university shows, opportunities where only available to those studying a few subjects
Just to repeat - this is the fault of your university not giving a toss about your international mobility and learning, not a fault with the Erasmus scheme.
Most Unis have it available to all for all subjects and it was a solution to certain scenarios and was never intended to be used by all students, just those that needed it.
Mefty in second rate uni shock 😜
Joking aside, don’t assume your experience is average – we all tend to, but we shouldn’t really
I went to Queens Belfast, wouldn't say it was second rate and in all honesty I don't remember Erasmus ever being mentioned to us. (Biological Sciences)
In reply to Mefty.
1/ I graduated in Geology in 1982
2/ I did another university course in 1988-89 which did indeed have something to do with languages but not much.
I've just picked up languages as I've gone along, and make an effort to maintain them, some more than others. My German is pretty good because I like German TV, but unfortunately I can't find the same enthusiasm for Spanish TV so only use it when I'm there.
Realistically, do we think UK will get a chance to turn the Brexit “£350m for the NHS” Bus around before the next election cycle?
Not a chance. It's going to take a long time for the impact of brexit to sink in. A couple of election cycles at least. Much like any new administration (which is what brexit is), it'll take a while before any disadvantages can be pinned on it. It also depends very much on what happens between now and future elections. If people have any reason to think the EU are being unreasonable (eg. this argument about vaccines) then it will provide an excuse for the govt to absolve themselves of responsibility.
Besides, there are far bigger issues than brexit for the next election, such as the covid aftermath and its effects on the health service and economy, and the push for scottish independence. Come 2024 we could well see a Catalonia-type standoff between the Uk govt and the SNP, with the queen stuck in the middle. That will consume a lot of energy which will overshadow most other things.
Just to repeat – this is the fault of your university not giving a toss about your international mobility and learning, not a fault with the Erasmus scheme.
Most Unis have it available to all for all subjects and it was a solution to certain scenarios and was never intended to be used by all students, just those that needed it.
I wasn't ascribing fault. Initially, I was making the point the programme was used by a small percentage of the university population, I estimated 2-3% - it is probably nearer 3% but it is difficult to get breakdowns to make a valid comparison. My wording was imprecise so Kimbers picked me up on it, but he in turn said "ERASMUS covered 100% of students". It was this statement I was disputing because at my old place only a few courses offered it so it couldn't be said to have 100% coverage. If you read the thread I think this is reasonably clear.
I don't know why the University did not have a wider offering, maybe complacency, it doesn't struggle to find applicants.
I generally try to avoid putting personal details on here - but if it helps I went to Oxford.
Hardly, I’m not talking about anything that happens now we’re out, we absolutely have to hold them to their promises. I’m talking about everything that happened between 2016 and 2021. It’s no good pointing out the broken promises and problems though without proposing solutions that aren’t about rejoining or saying ‘if only we hadn’t left’. That only gives the tories the ammo the need.
there was never any other destination than the hardest of brexits, revoking working time directive will 100% happen, how do you propose to stop it?
Johnsons brexit is a wet dream for the hard right tories
https://twitter.com/g_gosden/status/1354063116242448389
My wording was imprecise so Kimbers picked me up on it, but he in turn said “ERASMUS covered 100% of students”. It was this statement I was disputing because at my old place only a few courses offered it so it couldn’t be said to have 100% coverage. If you read the thread I think this is reasonably clear.
Not really no (unless you are happy with pedantic sophistry 😉 ). ERASMUS did cover 100% of students, Oxford took an explicit decision not to offer it to you.
I don’t know why the University did not have a wider offering, maybe complacency, it doesn’t struggle to find applicants.
I generally try to avoid putting personal details on here – but if it helps I went to Oxford.
Amongst people who work in Universities (like me) Oxbridge are rather renowned for their complacent and arrogant approach to most things at the administrative level. Any suggestion that they put some extra effort in or adapt to meet a changing funding landscape is met with an indignant "but we are Oxford!". Rather amusingly the proportion of funding in the biosci/biomed field that they win at institutional level each year is falling by quite a large chunck as a result (and driving the academics that I collaborate with there up the walls as the infrastructure ages and dies and PhD program funding dries up).
If people have any reason to think the EU are being unreasonable (eg. this argument about vaccines)
You think it unreasonable for the EU to ask where doses have been going when one little country is announcing more vaccines delivered and used than France and Germany put together?
Deliveries don't match what was announced in the press in terms of deliveries by dates for the countries that have ordered the vaccine, quite normal for the EU to ask a few questions.
but if it helps I went to Oxford
That deserves typing rolling on the floor laughing out longhand. 🙂 You really do fit the stereotype, Mefty.
Oxford took an explicit decision not to offer it to you.
Again if you read my posts you would realise they would need a time machine to have offered it to me.
You think it unreasonable for the EU to ask where doses have been going when one little country is announcing more vaccines delivered and used than France and Germany put together?
I never said that, I said if people think that's the case (even if it's not), then it'll give the tories an excuse to shift the blame for the impacts of brexit. TBH I have no idea what the facts are about the vaccine thing and I certainly don't think it's a UK vs EU thing, but you can bet that those with a political axe to grind will do so.
revoking working time directive will 100% happen, how do you propose to stop it?
I don't think it can be stopped. It can only be revoked by a future labour govt. The best that can be expected is for Starmer to point out that the tories promised not to dilute workers protections, and to promise to reverse it if he wins power.
That’s a good Miliband clip. Reminds me of so many occasions where I’ve banged my head against the wall explaining that this cabinet have stated, in their own words, again and again, their fundamental belief that workers rights should be rolled back… only to have “but the PM says…” repeated back at me. This government is built on his lies, and their ideology… it’s more cake and eat it… keep claiming no lowering of standards, while legislating and preparing to do exactly that. Yet another bait and switch… at some point the government will change from declaring they are not reducing workers rights, to slashing them… without a single night of disturbed guilty sleep between them.
Mefty, I’d kind of assumed you had gone to Oxbridge and probably Oxford, mainly due to the way you described it. Fair play though, it’s not a bad uni, though more for arts and humanities, but of science (I hear they did some sort of vaccine recently), maybe maths, less so for engineering and the like in my mind. For goodness sake, they even had me in to speak 18 months ago, so they must be scraping the barrel.
Might be wrong of course.
Oxford is a funny place though isn’t it?
at some point the government will change from declaring they are not reducing workers rights, to slashing them
If only we still had a strong trades union movement in the UK 🙁
If only we still had a strong trades union movement in the UK 🙁
Outdated lefty 6th form nonsense according to some on here.
Who has advocated against a strong trades union movement?
Calling Len McCluskey a crook doesn’t count. That’s an attack on the man, not the movement he is doing his best to undermine.
A Brexit benefit?
^^ similar report in the Economist today. It seems Europe is getting quite a bit of investment at the moment.
How can anyone trust a word he says
Whatever assurances he makes, just assume the opposite is about to happen
He's a habitual liar.
@Kelvin, my concern (working for a UK manufacturing company) is that this is just the first step to full-on relocation to the EU and shutting down UK ops. We have already been told that we are suffering a significant increase in net tariffs, that is the last thing we need in the current climate.
I thought all subjects were available for ERASMUS as long as it OK leads to a degree & uni is recognised
Which subjects were excluded?
I had the opportunity to go and study Engineering in Barcelona. Unfortunately I couldn't take up the placement as my first daughter was due during the time I would have spent there. Went to Uni as a mature student. I met and made many Spanish friends form the exchange.
Actually my Wife (not my first daughters mother)came to the UK on the ERASMUS.
Erasmus is/was so much more than a uni exchange scheme.
They run youth summer camps.
Youth exchanges (through schools and youth clubs).
Teacher and educator exchanges, based around a professional development theme or study.
Exchanges and learning for third sector education organisations.
My organisation has lost nearly £200k of income annually as we now can't run the last two of that list. I had filled in the 90 page form, ready for BloJo's promised Erasmus participation, for another programme next year that hoped to lead. More disappointing is that the 25+ UK teachers who would have participated have missed out on improving our kids wellbeing at school.
Apologies eskay, I was being flippant. I don’t see it as a good thing at all (for the UK). Some expanding companies will recruit extra staff in the EU instead of the UK… but far more worrying is that others will ending up moving roles over there, if not all their operations.
Oxford is a funny place though isn’t it?
Guess it is what you are used to, I spent some of my childhood there and my brother went to Cambridge so it seemed perfectly normal. I didn't encounter a campus university until I started work. It seems to do pretty well across the board in the International Surveys, but frankly I left more than 30 years ago and haven't had any contact since so it is not something I really worry about. I was however idly curious what their Erasmus provision was when people seemed so het up about it so I looked it up. Otherwise the only person I know who participated in the scheme is my step niece but she is Italian educated. I used to do euro recruitment interviews for one of my employers so I am sure there are more, but it clearly wasn't something that stood out.
@mefty let me see if I've understood you correctly.
When you were at Uni, Oxford only offered international exchange programmes to Language and Law students. This was before Erasmus existed.
Today (disregarding any potential brexit complications just for the sake of argument, maybe "yesterday" might be a more appropriate word), Oxford only offers exchanges via Erasmus to Language and Law students. (This is seemingly correct for outbound students.)
Unless I've missed something, and please correct me if I'm wrong, there's a common denominator here and it's not the one you appear to be implying.
Dare I say this, but is this AstraZeneca thing with the vaccines the first tangible benefit we've seen of not being in the EU? Given how the EU have completely thrown their dummies out the pram it would seem that it is. This quote is particularly revealing.
“We reject the logic of first come, first served,” the commissioner said. “That may work in a butcher’s shop but not in contracts and not in our advanced purchase agreements.”
I'm not sure many will agree with him. The UK signed the contract earlier allowing UK supply chains to be established in good time, it seems to stand to reason that it should be the primary beneficiary?
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/jan/27/eu-covid-vaccine-row-astrazeneca-european-commission
I haven’t seen either contract. Have you? My understanding is that UK one had an “advance” number that was guaranteed come what may (assuming trials were successful), which we have used, and future supplies, which we are into now, which are dependent on other demands on AZ. Other countries might have been unable to write in the guaranteed early supply, because they didn’t sign first, but the terms of their supply might be more strict than our terms for future supplies. Our contracts were all about spreading across as many as suppliers as possible (a good move, as it turns out) so are likely to be less restrictive beyond the initial supplies from each supplier.
TLDR: Oxford/AZ/UKgov agreement guaranteed early access, which we received. Does that commit AZ to give UK gov first dibs on all future doses? We don’t know. Has the EU signed a contract accepting the UK gets first dibs on all future doses? Unlikely.
Just hoping we have some Pfizer vaccine available when my parents are due their second jab in April
If you book a holiday and turn up for a flight and they've overbooked, who gets thrown off the plane? Everyone has a valid ticket. I guarantee it won't be the person who bought their ticket first, last or whenever. Any attempt to discrinate in favour of people from Essex, people with blue eyes or a criteria seen as unfair is likely to raise vociferous complaint.
Dare I say this, but is this AstraZeneca thing with the vaccines the first tangible benefit we’ve seen of not being in the EU? Given how the EU have completely thrown their dummies out the pram it would seem that it is.
Signing early is one thing, but early supply issues in UK vaccine manufacturing were overcome by vaccines manufactured in the Netherlands and Belguim, so you can see why the EU is asking for Astra Zeneca to use the vaccines now manufactured in the UK to be exported to EU countries.
BUT, this is nothing compared to the 6Bn or so people around the World in what is termed as 'middle to lower income economies' who as of this morning only had 25...yes just 25 vials of vaccine.
The last thing we need to do as you seem to be doing Daz, is getting all 'IN YOUR FACE EU' when there is a global pandemic going on, as the vaccines need to be distributed as equally as possible across the globe or we will be fighting this virus for a very long time to come. Or should I say mutations of it, that we have already witnessed, and mutations in the future the Vaccines may not be effective against.
Republica have an extended interview with AZ’s CEO:
What he has said is that the U.K. contracted on actual supply volumes whereas due to the delay in reaching an agreement the contract with the EU is on a “best efforts / endeavours” basis I.e they will try to supply but there’s no guarantee.
“best efforts / endeavours” basis
Has absolutely no meaning or value in a contract; nothing more than empty words.
this is nothing compared to the 6Bn or so people around the World in what is termed as ‘middle to lower income economies’
The whole point of the AZ/Oxford approach is to produce worldwide, profit free for middle and low income countries.
https://www.vaccitech.co.uk/oxford-university-breakthrough-on-global-covid-19-vaccine/
This shouldn’t be in this thread though.
is getting all ‘IN YOUR FACE EU’
FFS where did I say that? I asked a simple question about whether being outside the EU may have actually been a benefit in this situation. This is why I was hesitant about mentioning it because as you've amply demonstrated it's impossible to have a sensible discussion on this without the culture war nonsense kicking in.
It seems to me that the ability of the UK to make a fast decision in this case has clearly been a benefit, and one which will actually be good for the EU too if they end up receiving any UK made vaccines, as they probably should.
But the UK is still cooperating with the whole of Europe on power.
https://www.entsoe.eu/news/2021/01/15/system-separation-in-the-continental-europe-synchronous-area-on-8-january-2021-update/
But the UK is still cooperating with the whole of Europe on power.
https://www.entsoe.eu/news/2021/01/15/system-separation-in-the-continental-europe-synchronous-area-on-8-january-2021-update//blockquote >err can you translate that lot please?