[Closed] Bit of a bone to pick…King Alfred’s Way…

We don't do long distance trail signage well in the UK IME.

@nobeerinthefridge ha ha I’m inclined to agree with you…we were amazed, not one sign! Unless there were plentiful and were just a couple of old blind gits

The route is not signposted,

The information page literally has ‘this route is not signposted’ as the first line of the navigation section.

Is it signed? Or is it just assumed you have a qpx file

Land in Winchester, park car

You have a flying car?

It's a made up route, not a historic right of way, hence it uses parts of signposted routes like the Ridgeway, South Downs Way etc.

If you expect a brand new route to suddenly be signposted along it's entire length when councils have little money for anything, I think you expect too much.

Could be worse.

Can't move for signposts on some stuff up here. Most annoying one is the bright pink an turas mor ones.

This is a wind-up right?

… if it wasn’t for the gps we would have been a bit stuffed!!

I’m a little surprised the map, compass and Kendal Mint Cake crowd haven’t jumped on this.  Have they died out?

This is making me laugh.

don’t get me wrong, I wasn’t having a rant or a dig at anyone/thing, was just surprised there was nothing at all to help anyone find their way around, I generally have the navigational skills of a rocking horse so often need as much help as I can get a ha

, I wasn’t having a rant or a dig at anyone/thing, was just surprised there was nothing at all to help anyone find their way around

Apart from the guidebook with maps, and the gpx file.

@donslow - we did the route a couple of weeks ago and thoroughly enjoyed it. The route has only officially existed for about a year so no way are there going to be any KAW specific signs. The SDW as a walking/cycling route started in the 70's so the signage you see now has had 50 years to be put in place. It was quite nice though to connect with the SDW and be able to follow the signs rather than keep checking the route on our phones.
Also the KAW route spans 4/5 counties and trying to get all of those councils to put up KAW specific signs would be a nightmare.
Just as a warning, anyone attempting the route without a decent set of maps and/or the .gpx files (and a fully charged phone/garmin/ etc) is in for a bit of a shock. Especially on the eastern side between Reading and the SDW (meets at South Harting) as the route twists and turns all over the place on lanes and BW's.
We alternated between our two phones, one in use and one on charge with a power pack, the one not being used was put in "flight" mode to save the battery power.

I’m a little surprised the map, compass and Kendal Mint Cake crowd haven’t jumped on this. Have they died out?

It's hardly the Great Divide route

I’m a little surprised the map, compass and Kendal Mint Cake crowd haven’t jumped on this. Have they died out?

Don't worry, they're just navigating their way to this thread...

I said this would happen when that first ever trail centre opened in the UK. Up until then, everyone found their way around with map, compass and Kendall mint cake.

I hate Kendal mint cake.
People that can't use a map and compass shouldn't be allowed in the countryside.
Signposting routes makes any outdoor experience dull and unexciting.

^^ one of the these statements is true.
😀

How am I supposed to lean my bike against something for an epic photo if there isn’t a sign post?
# wish I had a friend to take pictures of me.

Perhaps the lack of signposting is supposed to liven things up a bit?

When you’re heading east through Cornwall there are no signs for John O’Groats, either. It’s a ****ing disgrace.

I think all local government signage budgets have been used up by Stafford's bulk purchase of "Cyclists Dismount" and "End of Cycle Route" signs. I'm not sure what they're supposed to mean, but every pedestrian coming the other way seems to know.

It’s hardly the Great Divide route

Seem to recall that has signposts though? (From YouTube footage, sadly not from personal experience)

You can't expect everything to be signposted. You've got to put some work in yourself, this isn't a theme park.

Also, I really quite like Kendal Mint Cake.

I’m a little surprised the map, compass and Kendal Mint Cake crowd haven’t jumped on this.

Printed maps? Modern tosh. As are magnetic compasses - or cheater pointers as I call them.

Maps should be hand drawn in ink on to animal hide by monks, and the sun used for direction finding. It just feels so much more authentic to hold in your hand.

While I'm not advocating for signposts, it does make me wonder in what sense the route officially exists at all without them?

Is it just a series of BWs and other RoWs virtually strung together by one of the bikepacking enthusiasts at Cycling UK to create yet another long-distance route?

A lot of the long distance routes are signposted by "Friends of the ......... Way" type groups, not councils.

If you want signposts, get a few hundred roundels made up and go screw them onto gate posts (with the owners permission).

Is it just a series of BWs and other RoWs virtually strung together by one of the bikepacking enthusiasts at Cycling UK to create yet another long-distance route?

Yes

it could be signed like this. I always wanted to go to "path"

[url= https://live.staticflickr.com/8466/8124168806_fe90ac8673_k.jp g" target="_blank">https://live.staticflickr.com/8466/8124168806_fe90ac8673_k.jp g"/> [/img][/url][url= https://flic.kr/p/dnUukY ]02 useful sign[/url] by [url= https://www.flickr.com/photos/25846484@N04/ ]TandemJeremy[/url], on Flickr

Id rather the Council spend what little money they have on important things, like cycle lanes and filling in pot holes.

Signposts are a bit of a luxury when most people will have a Map, or GPS or Phone.

If you go out without one of those and get lost its your own fault.

We alternated between our two phones, one in use and one on charge with a power pack, the one not being used was put in “flight” mode to save the battery power.

If you had the one in use in flight mode, you wouldn't need to charge it so often. If you've downloaded the map in advance, GPS works fine in airplane mode.

The SDW bit is fine and the Ridgeway as a delight so far as navigation goes.

As one of the OPs sets out the eastern bit does want a GPS and/or phone and/or ability to chop out some of the tedious gate heavy bits. The Mint La bit somewhere in Surrey led me in a rough circle to within 800m of where I turned off, after 40 mins.

Also - don't do it when nearly everything is locked down due to Covid and it's 3c overnight, as a suggestion......

How am I supposed to lean my bike against something for an epic photo if there isn’t a sign post?

The KAW was originally well signposted but unfortunately all the fatbikers kept hanging their bikes off them for photos.  The posts couldn’t take the weight 🙁

Whenever i go to holiday in France routes are incredibly well signposted whether that's mountain biking, road or walking they have a completely different culture to here. In the UK if you can't read a map or use a GPS then you don't deserve to be out in the countryside. Which to me is elitist and creates barriers to entry. We complain about the lack of diversity in cycling but then make it hard for people to do it. For example in the month i spent in the massif central in the past few years and I've barely had to look at a map as everything is so well signed for both biking and walking and running. Similarly in Argeles Gazost, Ainsa and Luchon. All you need in France is a baguette.

If my memory serves, the last 2 major long distance routes launched in the UK before KAW would have been NC500 and The Way of the Roses. Both are extremely well signposted so it sort of sets, if not a precedent, an expectation. The Reading to Petersfield section looks like a proper faff on the overview map.

Whenever i go to holiday in France routes are incredibly well signposted

I like the daubs of paint used rather than the signs, seems much less intrusive & easy to follow for cycling and walking routes.

If my memory serves, the last 2 major long distance routes launched in the UK before KAW would have been NC500 and The Way of the Roses. Both are extremely well signposted so it sort of sets, if not a precedent, an expectation. The Reading to Petersfield section looks like a proper faff on the overview map.

The Great North Trail was launched in 2019 and isn't signposted.

In the UK if you can’t read a map or use a GPS then you don’t deserve to be out in the countryside.

Do you really think that people should head into what can be remote, exposed locations without the ability to read a map? The Cotswold Way is signposted end to end but I still took a map and guidebook with me. Signposts rot or get knocked over...

Which to me is elitist and creates barriers to entry.

I disagree, somewhat. I mean there has to be some level of personal responsibility in most engagements. As long as expectations are set correctly it's entirely legitimiate to have a non-signposted route.

Anyone can set out a route and publish it, you can't always expect signposts to be put up. There's lots of precedent for non-signposted routes.

Trying to think if the Trans Cambrian Way was signposted when I did it - I can't remember now!

Do you really think that people should head into what can be remote, exposed locations without the ability to read a map?

Good signposting and good map reading skills aren't mutually exclusive. I can read a map, but it's so much more pleasant sometimes not to have have to.

I'm sure there's been a lot of somebody's work gone into the Great North Trail, and I'm sure the dozens of people who ride it will enjoy much of it, but it's aimed at a different group of people, using different equipment and for a significantly greater challenge. Just because they're promoted by the same group doesn't mean they should be the same.

There's map reading, and then there's map reading.

Taking bearings, understanding contours, knowing what the symbol is for a church with a steeple and a bell tower is a worthy skill but not necessary in all situations.

A bit of paper or phone app* with a line telling you where to go you would hope is the minimum standard for people wanting to leave the house unsupervised.

*this has removed the most difficult part - finding where you are - and can be done for pretty much free up to a certain level.

In the UK if you can’t read a map or use a GPS then you don’t deserve to be out in the countryside. Which to me is elitist and creates barriers to entry.

Bloody hell, do you want someone to pedal your bike for you, as well? Not sure where to start with this! Probably shouldn't have, if it's a wind up?

Given all the other barriers to entry to riding this route - fitness, a suitable bike properly maintained, spares, tools and the ability to use them if needed, transport to start/finish if you don't live nearby, camping equipment and suitable luggage to carry it or money for accommodation, money for food, time... the ability to read a map is stone cold free, and really should have learnt by the time anyone's navigating their way round this route. My son started following lines on a map and learning how to find our house before he was 3.

If you want to pay some money for technology to give you hand with the directions, you can get an an app for free or a few pounds to run on your phone, and a battery to charge in the B&B, or spend a bit more for a dedicated device, and 15 mins on youtube learning how to use it.

I'd say any emergency service you might rely on would be quite happy with "basic map reading" as a barrier to entry.

Maybe sounding a bit elitist there! References below.

- I do have some socks with red on them, but they've got grey stripes too, and are socks for cycling with/in, made by a cycling brand.
- Ambivalent about KMC. Quite like their chains, less keen on the cake.

personally I would hate to see the daubed paint on rocks for waymarking in Scotland / UK

Its a completely different set up on access And the traditions are different.

It's an interesting discussion* should a route like the KAW be signed or should people following it be required to find their own means of navigation?

I know I wouldn't set off on it without a map and (primary navigation tool) a GPS device. But I think most people would probably have get a warm fuzzy feeling if they periodically passed an easily identified sign letting them know they were on the right track...

I suppose you have to ask why wouldn't you put up signage? The obvious answer is to force people to navigate for themselves, but that maybe acts as a bit of a barrier/gate-keeping exercise which is (IMO) sort of the opposite of the point of the KAW, it's been plotted out as an easily accessible loop specifically to draw people into cycling/bike-packing not put them off...

(*It's not really is it)

@nedrapier Exactly what I said we are culturally completely different. In France Footpaths are marked usually with destinations and distances, villages/towns can have 100kms of way marked MTB routes you just arrive and ride, and yes you get the red and white markings all over the place so you don't get lost.

auvergne map Imagine if the peak had something like this every one of the trails on that map is fully waymarked. Months of biking without needing a map.

This site is full of people complaining about lack of diversity in MTB and yet expect that everyone to have map skills in order to cycle round some minor hills Southern England, so yes it is a barrier to entry and one that doesn't generally exist in Europe. If the King Alfred ways is being promoted as tourist destination then it would make more sense to waymark it.

Have all the trail centers in the UK disapeared over night ?

Remember France has a similar population in an area X times the size of the UK.

If you lot had your way we would have. Way marked trail passing every door.

Every country has a different context for access rights and habits. In the USA for example there's no land access at all except for designated spots for outdoor activities. These are often (but not always) signposted, obviously, because that's the entire point of the location. In the UK land is dual purpose. There are trails and paths everywhere, over loads of private land, and a great many are signposted despite often being physically indistinct When they string them together they often do go out and put markers on, but these aren't usually good enough to be relied on solely, and you would usually need a map to help you. For example, you can enter a field on a public footpath, with a signpost, and yet not be able to see a path or the stile on the other side.

Given that this is the general expectation, then creating a non-waymarked route such as KAW is understandable. In other countries it might not be.

auvergne map Imagine if the peak had something like this every one of the trails on that map is fully waymarked. Months of biking without needing a map.

Looks just like trail centre. Loads of stuff like that in the UK. The KAW is not that kind of thing at all. If you pull up a map of anwyhere in the UK with that much area, there'll be thousands of RoWs on it all over the place. They aren't all part of signposted routes.

Its not a trail centre its a huge area at least the size of the peak district with some of the existing ROW network waymarked on the ground as mountain biking routes graded for length and difficulty. There is nothing remotely like that in the UK, unless I'm missing something. There may be a couple of small examples like the trails on the long myndd or Sutton Bank but this is an entire national park. Zona Zero in Ainsa is similar maybe even bigger. Having something like that in the UK would remove a barrier to people mountain biking, which is planning and finding suitable routes in an area your not familiar with.

I included the map to illustrate the difference in attitude between the UK and France when it comes to the outdoors it seems they recognise that MTBing brings tourists and encourage it by waymarking ROWs as cycling routes where as in the UK we make it difficult for people or stick them on disused railways

Having something like that in the UK would remove a barrier to people mountain biking, which is planning and finding suitable routes in an area your not familiar with.

See again..... Trail centres.

You have a line of marker posts to follow.

The first eight are fine and folk wander off following them.

The ninth is missing and you can't see the eight or tenth.

You're goosed.

Elitist or not, folk should have the chops to be able to navigate themselves before they head out into any place they might get into bother.

(see also; lines of cairns on hill paths)

My son started following lines on a map and learning how to find our house before he was 3.

Huh late starter eh? Mine was navigating Everest by that age.

Huh late starter eh? Mine was navigating Everest by that age.

I said "learning" - project in progress! Limited success to date!

A bit of paper or phone app* with a line telling you where to go you would hope is the minimum standard for people wanting to leave the house unsupervised.

Presumably after mummy has spoon-fed the baby rice.

Gotta love accusations of elitism on a mtb forum.

(see also; lines of cairns on hill paths)

Some complete whank has been knocking cairns down in the Galloways, could be neds, could be some elitist bawsack.

Marking posts or painted stones wouldn't bother me, our countryside is completely covered in stuff that's not really in keeping anyway, forestry, muirburn, farmland etc.

We walked from Chamonix to Zermatt a few years ago. There are no signposts on the route save for occasional ones to the next village or one saying footpath, much like the ones in most of the UK where paths leave roads. In fact the route only exists in a guidebook written by a British author as the traditional route goes over glaciers (even fewer signposts).
Yes the French and Swiss mark paths with blobs of paint that they see as appropriate but when two red blob paths meet you still need to know whether to turn left or right and use the map.
If doing any long distance route you need map or guide or GPS or someone who knows the way.
Although signage, access, etc. varies most places advise anyone heading out to be self reliant.
Signposting every route would need regular huge signs declaring all the routes you could be doing rather than the one saying Bridleway and /or a little blue arrow which are often in place and for the UK more than adequate.
Besides sometimes it's good to just get lost.

Hands up who's done the caterun trail....

There's one of the issues with signposting right there. Many moons ago the signage was aqaquate.

Try following it today(unless of course it's had a significant revamp.)

most places advise anyone heading out to be self reliant

I can see that as excellent advice dodging between glaciers, cliffs and flash flood zones, but we're literally talking about unsigned little farm lanes dodging between residential streets, golf courses and garden centres in deepest darkest Surrey, with four or five potential wrong turns per mile. If you set out thinking it's good to get lost you wouldn't be trying to follow a nationally promoted tourist trail.

where as in the UK we make it difficult for people or stick them on disused railways

Or we build trail centres where MTBers can let rip without worrying about hitting walkers and their dogs.

Like I said, national parks mean different things in different countries. In France, AFAIK, they are purely dedicated to outdoor sport and recreation. I remember walking through the Vanoise and seeing derelict huts all over the place - the shepherds had all been kicked off the land when the park was created. Cross over the ridge outside the park and there's goats everywhere. We haven't got the spare land to do that. You can't directly compare countries. If we had huge areas of land we could set aside for recreation then there would be things like that. If you look at what we do have - wherever there are sizeable FC/NRW areas or places like QEFP at Aberfoyle you will see a fair bit of stuff like that.

If we had huge areas of land we could set aside for recreation then there would be things like that.

Given our history, if we had huge areas of extra land, it would've been enclosed and fenced off like the rest of it. I've often reflected that perhaps one of the reasons the the UK population doesn't have a history or common knowledge about navigation or "outdoor" recreation or sports  is that we've been barred from using the land for centuries.

Interesting thread. The first long-distance route I rode was the Camino Frances / Way of St James in Spain, following those yellow arrows. I still think there was something about that route that came from no maps or GPS being needed. At the junctions looking for the markers meant I was noticing things I might not had I been using GPS or seeing obvious signs. All the 'but, basic outdoor skills!' concerns aside it was a carefree and easy way to travel.

I've thought about paint daub signing a long-ish European route I mapped out for those reasons. Unsure of what permission you'd ned and the ethics of it though, plus it's hardly necessary. Default should be not to go round freely painting stuff...

I suppose you have to ask why wouldn’t you put up signage?

In the case of the KAW I guess it's that its hard enough setting up a route like that so an org like Cycling UK can formally present and stand behind it, having risk-assessed and worked through which sections are suitable etc - then to put signs up when there's a junction every 100yds in places, so much privately owned etc.
Plus we know what Little Britainers can be like, someone would remove them all for miles etc as a protest against that guy who didn't ring his bell once. I expect Cycling UK members would rather they spent resources on other things (edit, maybe they would support it - could be an interesting membership poll).

No signs being a barrier to entry? I don't think so, very minor at most compared to cost of kit, free time etc. If you can operate a smartphone you can navigate a bike route like this. I get how the French approach makes it accessible, I'm not anti that at all. Space and culture makes it much more possible/workable over there. Score 1 for France over the UK.

This route is a bit of an oddity. You can navigate some bits like the Ridgeway just by following the hill, but lots of bits need a change of direction every 50 metres. It would be hard and slow going with a paper map. Even with a GPS you probably will go wrong a couple of times.

Signage install and maintenance would have been a major undertaking. It's pedestrian town centres, woodland singletrack, major A roads, open heathland, and everything in between. That's very different to eg the SDW or the Ridgeway, which are basically both a straight line for a lot of the way.

Isn't it better to have it 'virtually' rather than not at all? Especially given that smartphones are so common. I know it's 'not wilderness' and 'only' the south of England, but a 350k ride is not something you rock up to with your family in tow on a bank holiday and start without a glance at the route and some thought about how you will navigate. Apart from the OP I guess, who I'm still not sure is serious.

Wait till you get a load of the WKW, that looks even more interesting from a navigational pov.

I’ve often reflected that perhaps one of the reasons the the UK population doesn’t have a history or common knowledge about navigation or “outdoor” recreation or sports is that we’ve been barred from using the land for centuries.

England not UK!

Scotland has a centuries long tradition of open access to the land

I walked St Cuthbert's Way this summer. The first half, in Scotland, was the best waymarked route I've ever walked. The second half, in England, was less good but you could still probably have managed without any additional navigation aids. I would have been happy to navigate, but the waymarking gave me the feeling that we were doing something special. I've also walked the GR5 section from Geneva to Samoens, and it was fun looking out for the red and white paint markers, but they acted more as reassurance that we were on the right track.

I'd like to see KAW waymarked, but I don't think I'm going to complain that it isn't.

Scotland has a centuries long tradition of open access to the land

Until is was cleared.

Isn't this really simple, it would be nice if the KWA were waymarked and would potentially make it easier to follow, but most people who are going to make the effort to ride something of that scale are also likely to have the commitment to navigate using a smartphone or GPS plus the guidebook. Ergo, it's not really a major problem.

Given that it's not a route that's really aimed at raw beginners, I can't see that it presents a barrier to participation. Surely that's a much wider problem and one that's not actually attributable to signposting, but has much broader and deeper causation.

I watched quite a sweet YouTube JOG to Lands End video the other day, which - although it was never explicitly stated - seemed to be two young-ish lads on affordable, flat-barred, hybrid-type things meandering down the country (ies) with a sense of wide-eyed wonder. No carbon fibre wonder bikes, no posh bike-packing luggage. The lack of signage didn't seem to stop them. I think really this is an argument about nothing much at all.

I expect Cycling UK members would rather they spent resources on other things

Hell yeah.

this is an argument about nothing much at all

This is the way.

A storm in a teacup indeed. Personally I’ve always loved the French signage of GR and similar paths, and the discreet signage of VTT routes is similarly effective, though much less visually elegant: I find a certain romance in the little red/white/yellow daubs on rocks, and to my mind it’s unfathomable that anyone would object to them.

But even with those, I’d not tackle them without either a map or a GPS. The signs are great for not having to constantly look at a map (many of us I’m sure come from a time before navigating by GPS was a thing) but they’re not a replacement.

Either way, there’s a balance between a totally unsignposted countryside and a level of signage that labels up every Strava segment within three miles. The French solve this with elegant visual design and a customary level of bureaucracy that keeps it all in check. Maybe there’s a role for Cycling UK there.

I thought the paint markings in France were done by the mountaineering clubs?

FFRP “own” the GRs and RdPs, FFC the VTT routes.

Isn’t it better to have it ‘virtually’ rather than not at all?

Well, quite. It's no different from that point of view to the routes printed in mtb magazines or the vast majority of circular walking routes.

I think the VVT signs are great and the clever bit is the signs that tell you you've strayed off the route which you can do if your're riding fast. Which also act as a back up if a sign is missing. I was just interested to see what people felt about waymarking. TBH I always have the IHN map downloaded on my phone with the GPX if i can get one loaded onto it in Backcountry navigator and onto my Garmin as a breadcrumb trail. But i prefer not to have to use them. As for the KAW I'm sure the waymarks would would get vandalized which is a shame, we did the white rose way a few years ago and the signage had been deliberately moved around to send you in the wrong direction.

A lot of England and Wales has (not always or infallible and removed by some landowners) has quite good footpath and bridleway signs or yellow / blue arrows. I think these are our equivalent of the French paint flashes and do help keep people on appropriate paths across farmland etc. (yes I know a lot of the acces laws are bad bit damaging crops is never a good move). Scotland is different and often wilder but sometimeore frustrating finding lowland paths but fewer restrictions on just winging it with a compass and some common sense (using gates and following boundaries of cropped fields).
How paths are linked together is harder to sign. The Cleveland Way goes just past here and it is easy to get lost in a few of the towns and villages as the signs in town are lacking and which street of houses is the path and which not. As with Ridgeway, S. Downs Way etc. this is a well established walking route with lots of people on it and maintaining signage is almost impossible even though the councils want it used to bring in the tourist pound. There are yellow arrows on almost all the paths across fields etc. though.
The KAW does sound like a good trip and definitely on my (long) list of trips I'd like to do.

Different bone....surprised my birthplace isn't included...Google tells me King Alfred's Kitchen is still open at the top of Gold Hill in Shaftesbury as it was in the 1960's plus riding up Gold Hill is a must do photo opportunity..

https://www.google.com/search?q=youtube+hovis+advert&oq=youtube+hovis+&aqs=chrome.1.69i57j0l3.10691j0j7&sourceid=chrome-mobile&ie=UTF-8#fpstate=ive&vld=cid:cdb610da,vid:6

This came up on the official KAW Facebook Group, and here was the response from someone from Cycling UK-

No, there are a number of complexities - for example, one local authority has a rule that promoted routes needed consultation and agreement from every parish council - that prevented a proposed local walking route a couple of years ago, and it’s likely that hostility to bikes would be much higher, then the issue that with local authority permission you can erect markers on their furniture, but not on privately owned furniture (you need landowner permission - and with 350km that’s a lot of work for limited reward). Then you need to keep them maintained... plus a few thousand pounds for markers. Put all that together and the decision to push toward GPS mapping is far more sensible for the target audience of the route, and if we do get any major issues (or improvements) we can alter things easily, and update the guidebook at the next reprint. If we get the odd location where there’s a real issue we’ll speak to the council about signage.