There’s been a lot of talk about not using paypal gift to protect yourself when dealing on the classifieds, maybe checking forum history as well and so on, but how many of you stop to look at how much gear a “member” sells? I know not everyone uses the forum to chat – my mate Rod for instance doesn’t seem to have ever started a thread outside of classfieds – but some people seem to buy and sell an awful lot of stuff

this story does a better job of showing what I mean

http://www.pinkbike.com/news/wolf-amongst-the-sheep-bike-theft-2014.html

The Crime
From the evidence collected the police surmised that the suspect was purchasing stolen bikes from petty thieves and drug users, stripping the valuable components from them and disposing of the frames, as they were the only traceable items. He would then organize the derailleurs, brakes, wheels, forks and the likes into labeled bins, piles and racks, before listing and selling the parts through multiple accounts on Pinkbike.com.

The suspect claimed, that not knowing it was stolen, he had purchased the Rocky Mountain Element for $1200 on Craigslist.com. Police have since arrested another man, who was already known to them, for the break-in at Endless Biking. They feel that it is more likely that this suspect paid roughly $300-$400 to the known criminal for it, expecting to make roughly an $1800 profit from the XTR components. This is just one example of what appears to have been a long running bike theft operation.

Crown Counsel must be able to prove the case beyond a reasonable doubt in order to prove a crime and without traceable parts, unfortunately there is was not enough evidence to proceed. And so they chose not to lay charges against the accused. Worse yet, says Const. Vunic, “we had to return all the parts [except for the Rocky Mountain Element], which is horrible”. Unfortunately with thousands of dollars worth of untraceable product it is easy to claim innocence – and ignorance – in the eyes of the law. “He played stupid.”

I swear I’ve described this exact thing, here on STW in the past as a Near perfect way to get away with profitable bike theft. ~450% profit and “plausible deniability” it doesn’t take a mastermind.

I would bet there are people doing similar things here in the UK…

The Rozzers basically don’t care but you could make a pretty tidy living from it I reckon.

Maybe he should have used Tails for his online activities.

I bought a frame off someone once- on STW he had sold alot of stuff but rarely posted in the main bit. Makes you wonder.

Then there are: Someone buys a full bike off a geniune seller for a bargainish price as the owner just wants their next bike (doesn’t know how to strip and sell or bother)- buyer strips then sells on for a profit.

= Fine

Pro, semi pro, team rider given lots of kit in leu of payment. Bet there are a few on STW —>

= Fine!

As I sadis above, there are people who like biking rather than talking about biking and so tend to use the classfieds more than the bike or chat forums. I do sometimes wonder though and have previously decided not to purchase 🙁

Best to err on the side of caution though. I do the same.

As I sadis above, there are people who like biking rather than talking about biking and so tend to use the classfieds more than the bike or chat forums

yeah, a user who only ever sells stuff but has a posting history a couple of pages long sounds like your mate, but someone who only ever posts in classified and has 27 pages of history sounds like they’re making a living/tidy sum from just shifting parts, source unknown.

I’d have thought that sort of thing would be easy to spot, mind you the way classifieds works doesn’t really help here, afaik you post an ad and it rapidly drops off the first page, can’t be bumped back up the list so next day you write a brand new ad, so one slow sale could take 20+ “threads”.

But then to add balance, I have a friend who does very well doing legit online bike trading.

He knows several good shops in & around the Birmingham area and then when a customer is in buying a new high end bike, he buys the old one from the customer, helping finance the new steed. Bike is then serviced, sometimes parts switched/updated if it makes financial sense, and then sold on.

So there are legit guys trading, not all are prolific posters on bike forums though.

As always – buyer beware. Ask questions, do some digging, find out *why* they are selling if it seems unusual in terms of age/price etc.

And for god’s sake don’t use PP gift. Or if you do, don’t clog up the internet crying when you lose out. It’s your own fault.

You mean like this?

http://singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/fs-top-spec-clean-quality-parts-special-pick-up-prices-available-9

and check the posting history…

Some other forums I visit (Pro audio) don’t let people sell without a number posts made in the main forums.

Forks usually have a serial number don’t they – is it worth us documenting and storing them alongside frame numbers.

And then postcode marking valuable other parts? Anything to make it slightly harder to claim plausible deniability (eg: a Bristol based seller trying to pass on items postcoded to a london address, would have to show a reasonable tracking system to show how he came by it?)

All of the parts of my stolen Brodie Holeshot Ti were found for sale on eBay/Pinkbike in much the same manner. I tracked down the individual selling them (someone who used to frequent this place, actually) and provided the details to my local police & the police local to the “seller”.

The police then did nothing for 6 weeks.

FFS

EDIT: This person was selling A LOT of high-end kit.

It does feel that the onus here on STW is to ensure a successful sale, so Paypal goods and items received. There is no question of the seller’s rights to sell the parts.

I think realistically, that’d be a very hard thing to do though.

Depressing… but if I’ve never bought a stolen part, I’d be amazed.

Always check forum history, like to think I could spot a wrongun but also amazed at how many people dive in to buy items that scream dodgy to me.

Depressing… but if I’ve never bought a stolen part, I’d be amazed.

+1

And for god’s sake don’t use PP gift. Or if you do, don’t clog up the internet crying when you lose out. It’s your own fault.

I think there should be a forum rule. Anyone complaining about being ripped off and used PP gift should be banned. The warnings are everywhere and worse still….its in bold read on the text box when you type a reply into the classifieds section.

boxfish what stw’er was it?

Depressing… but if I’ve never bought a stolen part, I’d be amazed.

There is a solution though, don’t buy secondhand unless you KNOW the part is legit. To me the savings aren’t worth the knowledge that some smooth talking **** is making a living out of nicking peoples bikes.

How do you now the part is legit though

If I offer you a part are you certain it is legit?
Am I certain?

I have never knowingly bought anything stolen ever and I have never given it any thought till now

The main things that I’ve bought are frames (secondhand) and almost exclusively from here. Most of them were from the original owners (and/or I’d met the seller in person/had a long email conversation first).

So I’m pretty confident I’ve never bought a hooky frame but I bet theres the odd stem, seatpost or saddle in there (I’ve always bought wheels, cranks, pedals and mostly forks brand new at sale prices).

There is a solution though, don’t buy secondhand unless you KNOW the part is legit. To me the savings aren’t worth the knowledge that some smooth talking **** is making a living out of nicking peoples bikes.

How would you know though?

Even you mate could buy a stollen bike off ebay by accident, then sell you the mech years later.

TBH his defence wouldn’t be uncommon on STW, I know at least 2 personaly who did/do this to fund their bikes. Buying bikes off ebay for a single part (forks, or a chinaset, etc), then selling the rest on ASAP, the ‘profit’ coveing the cost of the part they kept.

Heck, I used to do it on a small scale while at uni!

There is a solution though, don’t buy secondhand unless you KNOW the part is legit. To me the savings aren’t worth the knowledge that some smooth talking **** is making a living out of nicking peoples bikes.

Completely shut down the used bike parts market?
Good luck with that plan…

Forks usually have a serial number don’t they – is it worth us documenting and storing them alongside frame numbers.

Now that is an eminently sensible suggestion, but just how much chance is there that the number on your forks is fully traceable via manufacturers, OEMs or Distributors? anyone ever tried?

At the end of the day any half cognisant thief will know which parts have more chance of being traced and which don’t, Brakes, Cranks, Dropper posts, Mechs/shifters, Wheels?
All desirable/sought after items, relatively portable, probably quite tricky/impossible to trace, you don’t need to flog the frame/forks to turn a profit…

The OP linked Thread says it all, other than the one bike they could prove was stolen, which the suspect claimed to have bought in good faith, they couldn’t link any of the other stuff in his Garage to reported thefts, from the sounds of it 10+ bikes worth of higher value stripped parts and frames… Thats a few grands worth of kit.

The OP linked Thread says it all, other than the one bike they could prove was stolen, which the suspect claimed to have bought in good faith, they couldn’t link any of the other stuff in his Garage to reported thefts

On a second reading the ‘story’ does seem more tenuous once you get past the headlines and police quotes.

There’s absolutely no proof that anything other than the RM was stolen? Baby and bathwater anyone?

mrmo – Member

There is a solution though, don’t buy secondhand unless you KNOW the part is legit.

I can’t even prove that most parts I already own are legit, even stuff I’ve bought new… how do you suggest we do it for anyone else?

Dunno there’s doing a bit of trading in used parts, and then there’s doing it on a large scale, through multiple accounts, with no proof of where you obtained your stock from… can’t say its not suspect, and I’d imagine PB wouldn’t have written a piece on someone using their own buy/sell pages for nefarious purposes unless they were pretty sure…

Thinking about it further, You don’t actually have to steal whole bikes to make money these days… In fact that’s probably a whole lot more risky

One of these:

Some of these:

Maybe these:

and this:

Ten undisturbed minutes alone in someone’s Garage/shed, not being too precious about what you might damage in the process, you could easily strip half the untraceable, saleable components from any bike and wander off quietly with a rucksack full of loot, no need to worry about disposing of a frame…

I can’t even prove that most parts I already own are legit, even stuff I’ve bought new… how do you suggest we do it for anyone else?

The forks & frames that I have bought new & have receipts for don’t have serial numbers on the receipts, so I can’t prove any of my bikes or parts are legit whatsoever, a bit of due diligence by buyers would at least be a start though

exhibit 1

http://singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/rockshox-reba-10mm-80

I can’t even prove that most parts I already own are legit, even stuff I’ve bought new… how do you suggest we do it for anyone else?

Exactly!

If the seller can’t prove they own it, don’t buy it. If you want to do something about bike theft then the only half decent approach is to remove the market. Sticking your head in the sand and saying well, it was a bargain, he seemed like an honest bloke, etc. won’t cut it.

If the seller can’t prove they own it, don’t buy it. If you want to do something about bike theft then the only half decent approach is to remove the market. Sticking your head in the sand and saying well, it was a bargain, he seemed like an honest bloke, etc. won’t cut it.

Virtuous though that sounds, how exactly would you do that?

Maybe the shops keep a record to stop spurious warrenty claims, but I’ve not got recipts with serial numbers on them for most of my stuff bought new, let alone 2nd hand.

And most recipts these days are just an A4 printed sheet. I could knock up CRC recipts for pretty much any part I own in 5 minutes that’d fool anyone apart form CRC), would you phone CRC to confirm they sold me a set of Marzocchi forks last year (leaving asside they couldnt tell you for data protection reasons)?

Now that is an eminently sensible suggestion, but just how much chance is there that the number on your forks is fully traceable via manufacturers, OEMs or Distributors? anyone ever tried?

Yes, back in the day i had a Marz fork and cut the steerer too short to fit to a frame that i later bought. was the days of cryofix steerers and windwave (I think) were able to fit a new one, but needed the s/no to be able to check MY and hence which steerer they needed to order in.

But it’s not really a case of tracing through manufacturers, it’s for your own records, etc. If a bike gets nicked and stripped for parts as proposed above, we already know that frames are of generally little value / high risk for the ‘professional’ thief for the reason they are traceable – when you report the crime to the police you advise them of the frame numbers, hence there’s traceability and risk. So they scrap frames and instead concentrate on the lower value but virtually unproveable-as-stolen part.

If we also recorded other valuable (and identifiable) parts, such as forks, cranksets, etc. – the value of the untraceable portion of the bike becomes less and the desirability of nicking bikes just for parts drops.

I’m certainly considering buying an engraving tool and marking my bits.

hora – Member
I bought a frame off someone once

just once? – I thought like London tap water most frames had already been through your system several times. 🙂

Exactly!

If the seller can’t prove they own it, don’t buy it. If you want to do something about bike theft then the only half decent approach is to remove the market. Sticking your head in the sand and saying well, it was a bargain, he seemed like an honest bloke, etc. won’t cut it.

Find me conclusive proof that those 3 year old SLX brakes or that old X0 shifter in the spares box that came off your old Dandyhorse are utterly, unequivocally “Legit”… go on!

Those are the sort of bits with the most scope for untraceable thievery and probably the hardest to get any provenance for, stuff that goes £10 – £60 on the used parts market… you really think you’ll get proof of purchase for those sort of things?
More than likely you’ll just be told to bugger off…

exhibit 1

Black rockshoz rebas dual air lock out 100m travel mint con no markers on the stants just a few light marks on the legs no leaks seals are fine qr steere 8inch
yeah looks dodgy but as all his replies are equally badly written so it could just be a keyboard skills issue
🙂

could just be a keyboard skills issue

On a site full of IT professionals?

I find selling things on forums a real hassle, with all the cheapskate offers, the packing, posting and tracking delivery etc. I think there must be many easier ways to earn a dishonest $20,000

Those are the sort of bits with the most scope for untraceable thievery and probably the hardest to get any provenance for, stuff that goes £10 – £60 on the used parts market… you really think you’ll get proof of purchase for those sort of things?
More than likely you’ll just be told to bugger off…

Not arguing the with you on that, but if you can’t prove an item isn’t stolen it might be. I am looking at this from a buyers point of view not a sellers. I know what I own is legit, but I can’t prove it if I tried to sell it, but then again I tend to run kit into the ground and not change it every week.

I’ve had this accusation thrown at me by a person who lost a bike and saw I was selling a fair few bits at different times that added up to what he thought was his bike. As it happened I was able to show hime pictures of bikes I’d had for a while, a bike I’d bought for the frame (and sold the rest) and a mates bike if memory serves me correct.

It’s the same scenario as cars being stolen for bits (or bit’s stolen off parked cars), the body and engine block are well marked but the bulk of the car is untraceable.

Dunno Mrmo as a buyer, if the price is about on par for the market, the seller Seems to communicate like an honest, knowledgeable sort, and perhaps has a bit of forum history for you to browse I think that is about all you’ll get in terms of confidence that most used parts haven’t been knicked at some point, bare in mind you might be buying parts in good faith from someone who is honest, but if that part has been through several pairs of hands, somewhere along the chain there is a chance it changed owner through criminal means…

I’ll be honest, I’ve seldom asked for proof of purchase or too much about many parts history especially if its at the cheaper, smaller end of the scale, Frames and Forks I’d perhaps be more inquisitive about history, but again I’ve not always got a full picture of it’s life up to where I bought it…

TBH I couldn’t swear that I’ve never bought a stolen part, I’ve never sought to, nor would I, but just how far is it reasonable to expect a buyer to go in order to avoid buying previously stolen parts?

mrmo – Member

If the seller can’t prove they own it, don’t buy it

Which basically amounts to “Refuse to buy practically everything”, and by extension “Can’t sell anything unless you spend your whole life fannying around with receipts, and even then not always”. Real world solutions please.

Why not make it a requirement that everything listed for sale on here that has a serial number on it, have that serial number posted in the advert.

It’ll increase awareness of where serial numbers are located on parts, and make it so much easier to locate/trace components when they’re on sale.

I’m just a serial bike builder/parts changer!

Despite my best efforts in the classifieds (and elsewhere on the internet) recently my family would be going hungry if this were my source of income.

Thankfully I would have pictures to show the bits I’m selling in various builds and guises, not that anyone has ever asked.

Both my expensive bikes came of the net. I’m glad I got the original sales bills for one on the other the guy sent bits through the post after the sale. My road bike came off eBay and tbh I’m not sure. So I’ve promised myself the next bike I get is cash on collection at the seller’s house not to make sure they have the bike but make sure they are the owners. The Problem is all hobbies have wrong uns. I’ve seen so much moody stuff for sale in the classic VW world to put me off it. Bike and classic car theft is high reward it would appear .

Why not make it a requirement that everything listed for sale on here that has a serial number on it, have that serial number posted in the advert.

1. Scammers can copy the pic and serial number.
2. Most things the thieves are selling don’t have serial nos in the first place. Unless you can tell me where the serial number of my bars/stem/pedals is?