Before I buy a Sage Bambino

Lighted roasted coffee when used with the Sage is sour and under-extracted.

That’s down to the grind not the Sage surely? If it’s sour, grind finer.

Could also be temperature – lighter roasts need higher temps to properly extract.

In the spirit of recommending what you have:  Lelit Mara X.  Excellent little machine.

Take a look at https://www.coffeeforums.co.uk/marketplace/ some real bargains to be had, and plenty of the sort of thing you are looking at.

On my oracle for a light roast it’s a fine grind – 2.5:1 extraction and 96 degrees.

Lelit Mara X.  Excellent little machine.

I think they lost me with the phrase ‘In just 24 minutes’ on the front page of their website. I’d be halfway up the M77 before its ready.

Yeah – fast start-up seems to be the new thing.  Doesn’t bother me as I wfh anyway.

I’m a big fan of the bambino… I think you’d have to spend quite a lot more to get something objectively better.

Let’s not mention grinders 🙂

Now we’ve reached a rare consensus. Where’s best to buy one? I seem to remember numerous psas but the current deals on the sage website are a bit average.

 I think you’d have to spend quite a lot more to get something objectively better.

Completely agree our Oracle which is roughly 4 x the cost doesn’t make particularly any better coffee. It is however a lot less faff, very straight forward , consistent and quick to use.

I seem to remember numerous psas

Just wait until they are on sale again, happens every so often at all the usual places

Now we’ve reached a rare consensus.

Shut up! We’re only on page 2.

We haven’t explored straining mellow birds through a sock or grinding civet coffee while its still in the civet yet.

That’s what worries me about waiting for a sale. I can’t see this consensus lasting too long.

I’m doing a Barista course in Bristol (where else) on the grounds (ahem) it’ll be akin to MTB coaching

I’d say it’s well worth doing, taught me a lot when I did one, made me a fussier (than I already was) T**t about what I value in a coffee though (and yes, I realise I to most probably come across as a pretentious p***k, but that’s because I am!)

Get the Bambino (ebay re-seller of Sage stuff might be a good idea idoodirect for example) and report back on the rabbit hole!

So anything that needs to be ‘dialed in’ in terms of technique isn’t really going to happen, we just want that one coffee to be good coffee with a reasonable degree of repeatability.

OP, just to say in light of the above, find one coffee you like and stick with it. All espresso setups need to be “dialled in” with a new source of coffee. If you are chopping and changing coffee all the time, you’ll be constantly adjusting. Tbh even the same brand of coffee can vary a bit from batch to batch.

^ agreed.  Although, if you’re not careful, you can go way beyond the point of diminishing returns for faffing-about.  I have learned I have a relatively low tolerance for unnecessary complexity.

Having tried just about all the coffee roasters in Sydney, and most of the ones in Melbourne too – I now use the same beans 90% the time.

Dose and brew ratio stay the same, I adjust the grind by maybe +/- 5 mm on the adjuster ring, depending on the age of the beans.

I single dose (niche zero), but it annoys me that I have to weigh out the bean in advance into those little tube things.  As soon as we see some decent grind-by-weight options for home users – I will be getting on of those (in the spirit of eliminating faff).  I used to have a time-based grinder, but it was so variable, that the coffee went from great to crap, depending on how full the hopper was.

Otherwise, the only bit of faffing that I won’t skip is puck prep (WDT to be precise).

To be honest – if you swapped my machine for a bambino, the coffee would probably still be just as good.  The milk steaming, probably not.  Otherwise, it’s just about longevity/serviceability and resale value.

report back on the rabbit hole!

I thought it came out of Civet holes

I thought it came out of Civet holes

I plan to avoid any post digestion coffee thanks!

Having read this thread, I reckon that I should give my sage duo pro it’s 1st descale as it’s been inconsistent for the last couple of months.

Also seeing as I’ve had it for about 5 years and never touched it, apart from the main filter about once a year ?

Like the op, the benefits of nice soft water helps ?

I don’t know what those machines are like, but you have to be a bit careful descaling as the newly mobile chunks of scale can clog up things – and I’d be a bit wary on a machine that I couldn’t strip-down.

however, I’m sure sage have a descaling procedure which minimises the chances of that – so I’d be following that to the letter

Why would machines be scaling up even with regular descaling, that sounds not fit for purpose.

Lighted roasted coffee when used with the Sage is sour and under-extracted.

That’s down to the grind not the Sage surely? If it’s sour, grind finer.

My grinder is a Niche Zero and I been through every grind size from it gushing through until it chokes. Just can’t get it to make a nice espresso, there’s seemingly no sweet spot with my Duo Temp

Having read this thread, I reckon that I should give my sage duo pro it’s 1st descale as it’s been inconsistent for the last couple of months.

Also seeing as I’ve had it for about 5 years and never touched it, apart from the main filter about once a year ?

Main filter is every 3 months…

Have you done the cleaning cycle? This is different to descaling.

My grinder is a Niche Zero and I been through every grind size from it gushing through until it chokes. Just can’t get it to make a nice espresso, there’s seemingly no sweet spot with my Duo Temp

If you can’t make a nice Espresso – then you are doing something else wrong. Grind size is usually your primary variable, but find a grind size that gives you a 2:1 ratio in 30ish seconds and then leave it there, and focus on troubleshooting everything else.

Weighing/timing:  Are you weighing timing your shots on the way out?  You need to – at least when dialling in initially.  As above, if you are using 18g in, you should aim for 36g out in 30 secs.

Beans.  Are you using supermarket beans or something freshly roasted? 2-6 weeks is optimal.  But as long as it’s reasonably fresh it should be fine.

Roast.  Lighter roasts are less forgiving.  I’d start out with a decent medium blend to eliminate that as a factor while to troubleshoot everything else.  Also:  some light roasts are just gross IMO – pick something middle of the road so you can tell when you get it right.

Basket.  Make sure you aren’t using the pressurised basket by mistake.  Otherwise make sure you are using the right dose for the basket size.

Puck prep.  You need to be doing this well/consistently to eliminate variability – otherwise your shot time will be all over the place, and you won’t be able to dial in you grind.  Distribute the grinds in the portafilter with a WDT tool or straightened paperclip, then tamp level and with a consistent pressure.

Having just written all that – found a video using your exact combo of machines:

If you can’t make a nice Espresso – then you are doing something else wrong.

Nah, I’m just picky. There’s a point where the espresso is just about ok, but it’s just, well, ok. Either side of this grind size you get the expected increase in bitterness going finer, increase in sourness going larger. Shot times also changing too.

My Sage Duo Temp Pro (DTP) just can’t get the best out of the lighter “independent roaster” type coffees. I’ve used the same coffees with a Moka pot, Aeropress, filter and even my Dad’s cheap Delonghi espresso machine. They all get more flavour out of it. I think the DTP is designed for supermarket, Italian style coffees. Robusta/arabica blends or full arabica, and definitely dark roasted…. think Lavazza* etc. Either that and/or it is just under calbrated for temperature. Online I’ve seen that others have found the same. Also a big clue is that the coffee in the cup just isn’t that hot!

I don’t believe the temp can be adjusted with hacking the internals either. It’s only ever been used in a soft water area with regular filter changes, cleaning and descaling. I’ve never been fully happy with it. Initially I thought it was me but over the years with a grinder upgrade, following advice from James Hoffman (general not personal!) and mastering other brewing methods it really does seem like the machine is the issue.

*I actually really like this type of coffee too. One my favourite coffees is an Italian supermarket (Conad) own brand Lavazza copy. Best made with a Bialetti Moka pot ?

Well – sounds like you diagnosed your own problem then?

I think if you’re going to be right down that end of specialty coffee, you’re going to need a machine with better temp control.

Doesn’t make it a bad machine though, just the wrong one for you if that’s what you want to drink

Or it has something wrong with it? It’s out of warranty so might strip it down to see if there’s anything obvious inside e.g. scaling. Went down a bit of rabbit hole, mainly on Reddit. Seems there are people who have found it just doesn’t get hot enough…. but, before all that I will try some darker roasts, perhaps then selling it on if it works ok with them.

Also, the Bambino looks good… and most importantly doesn’t use the same water heating system as the DTP (it’s same concept but not the same system)

Lighter roasts are definitely more challenging to get the best out of with espresso. With all other brewing methods I prefer light to medium roasts. I’m fairly new to espresso and have struggled to get decent shots with lighter roasts. This despite the fact I have a very capable grinder, an espresso machine with PID adjustable brew temperature and I know the theory of how to brew lighter roasts. I can get them to taste OK, but I just don’t get all the more subtle, sweet, fruit and floral type flavours I would get if I brewed on an Aeropress for example. Even if I grind finer, brew hotter, tweak ratios etc.

I know it can be done, it’s just more complex and unforgiving than with darker roasts. For the time being I am sticking with medium dark espresso blends from a speciality roaster. They do 6 or 7 varieties and they are really easy to work with. I’ve learned to pull a great shot at the first or second try with a new batch and minimal adjustment. I do really enjoy the, chocolatey, nutty flavours of darker beans, but at some stage I’m going to go back and have a real effort to learn to pull great shots with light roasts.

Is your machine boiler or thermoblock?

I’m wondering if thermoblocks are more tricky because the water temp is a function of the flow through the block. This is unlike a boiler where the temperature is reached before the water is pushed through the coffee. So with a thermoblock you need a certain level of flow resistance to ensure the water is heated… but you also want the flow through the coffee to be right to get a good extraction. There might be no middle ground where the two flow requirements line up

Mine is a single boiler machine. One thing I have noticed is that the display shows it’s reached the desired brew temperature about 5 minutes after I switch it on. I won’t get a decent shot out of it though unless I leave it a good 15 to 20 minutes. The display is showing the temperature in the boiler, not at the group head. The group head, portafilter and basket needs to be too hot to touch before it will pull a good shot, and it takes a little while to get there.

Once it does, you can pull repeated shots without the temperature dropping, provided you don’t rinse the portafilter with cold water between shots. Do the thermoblock machines have a separate heater element for the group head? If not, I can see why maintaining a high enough and stable temperature would be harder.

Do the thermoblock machines have a separate heater element for the group head?

I don’t think mine does. The portafilter only gets warm when water is run through it.

Another thought is shot time is essentially a measure of flow rate. So perhaps aiming for 30 secs shot time is one of my issues, as with a thermoblock this affects water temp?

I could grind finer for a longer shot time to heat the water more but this will over extract… so use less coffee perhaps, but this then effects to flow rate, therefore water temp…yeah, hmm

There might be a Sage for sale soon.

EDIT: I’ve remembered that the shower screen is upgraded and this gave a step change in output. I had to grind 2-3 steps finer to stop the coffee gushing through. Maybe the machine needs that flow resistance of the stock screen

Another thought is shot time is essentially a measure of flow rate.

Amongst other things. It’s also affected by the amount of resistance provided by the basket of coffee. This can be down to grind size, the dose and the basket design.  The basket can make a big difference. Firstly making sure it’s the right capacity for the dose you use, so the shower screen is close to, but not touching the puck. Secondly by using one of the aftermarket ‘precision’ baskets. They usually have more holes, allowing a faster flow rate. I bought an IMS basket for mine, and have had much better results with it that the ones that came with my machine.

I aim for 30 seconds, as a starting point, but don’t be rigid with it. I often find some coffees work better with faster or slower shots. It’s usually in the range of 25 to 35 secs but one I tried recently tasted superb at 22 secs.

Sell your machine by all means if you fancy a new one, but don’t expect all the complex variables and frustrations of trying for the perfect shot to disappear, even with a Gucci machine!

Shot time is flow rate as it’s a measure of grams/sec into the cup. I want X grams (X depending on brew ratio) in 30 secs. But yes it is affected by the things you mention.

My thinking is that within a thermoblock machine you have flow rate through the thermoblock (which affects water temp) and flow rate through the coffee puck (which affects extraction)

There’s a definite difference in the screens I have. IMS shower screen is on the left, stock on the right

The IMS is definitely more open looking. So would offer less resistance. Does that means the water flows though the thermoblock faster and hence is cooler than with the stock shower screen?

This tallys with my memory of having to adjust the grind immediately when first using the IMS screen. I think I had my Sage grinder then not the Niche. I have IMS baskets too (yes plural!).

I’ve switched back to the stock screen and I’ll see how it goes this week. I’m not getting wired this afternoon!

This tallys with my memory of having to adjust the grind immediately when first using the IMS screen

By this I believe it does significantly affect flow rate as all other variables would have been the same (grind size and amount of coffee). It gushed through and I had to grind finer on the next shot to compensate.

Shot time is flow rate as it’s a measure of grams/sec into the cup. I want X grams (X depending on brew ratio) in 30 secs. But yes it is affected by the things you mention.

Ahh… I think of flow rate as separate from shot time, I see it as how much water comes out of the machine in a given time, without any coffee present.  I.e. the rate (in g or ml per second) at which the machine is capable of delivering pressurised hot water before I introduce other variables which might slow it down.  I don’t know if that’s the correct technical definition of ‘flow rate’, but it’s how I’ve always thought of it, especially as some machines have adjustable flow rate or even flow profiling which changes the flow and/or pressure during the shot! I cba with all that, it’s complex enough as it is!

Does that means the water flows though the thermoblock faster and hence is cooler than with the stock shower screen?

I’m not sure, it was my understanding that thermoblocks can heat up small quantities of water almost instantaneously. It does sound feasible that increasing the amount of water flowing through it could cause a temperature drop?  You would imagine though, that the flow rate into the themoblock was controlled by inline valves or flow restrictors before the block and wouldn’t rely on the shower screen or other components after it?  Although I do see how a less restrictive shower screen could increase the flow rate into the cup.  I’m guessing though!