PS teamhurtmore are you refering to “the Asset-Backed Commercial Paper Money Market Mutual Fund Liquidity Facility”
What a mouthful!

. Barc, HSBC and RBS all had access to official and secret fed funding.

Here:- http://www.federalreserve.gov/faqs/why-did-the-Federal-Reserve-lend-to-banks-and-other-financial-institutions-during-the-financial-crisis.htm
they appear to be saying (Federal Reserve) that there was nothing secret about it. Suspect the figure were actually available but not highlighted. What do you think?

By the way access is not the same as using, the option to use is enough to stabilise the market? Again your opinion?

http://m.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-26006467
From the JRF report today.

The SNP have already said they will massively increase child benefit, and promised to bin the bedroom tax.What will the UK government do to reduce child poverty? It’s over to you Dave.

Sd, no I am referring to the US primary dealer credit facility (pdcf) throu which Barc was able to borrow over $850b in short term funds. At the time the FED did not have to, nor did it, disclose the information. RBS borrowed just under $500bn from the FED. These are the sums that are/were required to keep these institutions afloat. Hence this romantic notion that Scotland could simply use the £ as a meansof exchange and do without a proper lender of last resort is an absurd fantasy that is so far divorced from reality that you could only find it in things like the book of dreams.

The are many people who believed that Barc was bust in the crisis but through a lot of smokes and mirrors, hidden support, creative mark-to-market approaches etc made it thought without overt state support. Given the way that Diamond was quickly sacrificed in the end, they may have a point!!

What will the UK government do to reduce child poverty? It’s over to you Dave.

Erm, you do realise that due to the method of calculating child poverty, it actually reduced during the recession?

Thats right, a large portion of the ‘reduction’ is actually down to average incomes falling – see http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-22886817 for an example – and arguably part of the reason poverty fell quicker in Scotland, is because average wages have fallen further.

An anomaly caused by a statistical weakness in the method of measurement, and one that Dave and IDS have both admitted is a problem with the figures rather than a real improvement, but its the accepted measurement across the EU and OECD and nobody has been able to come up with an agreed better method of measuring.

. gordimhor – Member
http://m.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-26006467
From the JRF report today.

The SNP have already said they will massively increase child benefit, and promised to bin the bedroom tax.What will the UK government do to reduce child poverty? It’s over to you Dave. . The ability of Scotland to do this and free University education etc is entirely based on them getting a larger subsidy/payment from central government. Without this how will they pay for it all these extras? I am at a loss as to why people have not seen such an obvious fact??

Good grief! I agree with SD 253!

.teamhurtmore – Member
Sd, no I am referring to the US primary dealer credit facility (pdcf) throu which Barc was able to borrow over $850b in short term funds. At the time the FED did not have to, nor did it, disclose the information. RBS borrowed just under $500bn from the FED. These are the sums that are/were required to keep these institutions afloat. Hence this romantic notion that Scotland could simply use the £ as a meansof exchange and do without a proper lender of last resort is an absurd fantasy that is so far divorced from reality that you could only find it in things like the book of dreams.

Some simple facts how did countries like Greece get into such dire financial straits? When they joined the Euro they were able to borrow at significantly lower interest rates. German government bonds were considered far safer than Greek government bonds. BUT a Greek Euro buys the same as a German Euro. Money moved into Greek bonds. Interest rates then fell for Greek bonds allowing them to borrow much more. German interest rates rose but not significantly as Germany is much bigger than Greece and there borrowing was more conservative. Scotland is Greece we are Germany. This is a relative statement based on size of country. Scotland will borrow at rates similar to the UK it is doubtful that they would be able to do that if they had a separate currency. Britain would have to control there spending to stop them doing a Greece. Without the extra money they get from central government the only way I can think of them meeting all there spending promises is to do a Greece and borrow what they can’t pay back. In a similar situation to the financial collapse who will bail them out?

Well yes and no. Comparing Scotland and Greece is not helpful or appropriate IMO. For one thing the concept of an optimum currency area is essentially satisfied by Scotland and rUK unlike across the € zone. So we are not comparing apples with apples.

Other points re level or interest rates may be true but for different reasons. Actually in ST, Scottish rates more likely to be higher until track record established. Threatening a technical default would not be a good start!!!

On the issue of independence of economic policy, or lack of it, I agree but for different reasons and not because you can equate Scoltand and Greece.

I equated Scotland with Greece on a size of country basis. There ability to borrow is based on UK rates. As stated I can think of no way that they can meet there spending promises without extra borrowing. Maybe I am missing something? Will they get all the oil revenues?? Oil out put has fallen 50% over the last 5 years (I think that is roughly correct)

I appreciate that but still think it’s not a particularly relevant comparison.

Yes, they will have to borrow independently. One of the challenges clearly is the sensitivity to potentially volatile oil prices.

.teamhurtmore – Member
I appreciate that but still think it’s not a particularly relevant comparison.

Yes, they will have to borrow independently. One of the challenges clearly is the sensitivity to potentially volatile oil prices
I doubt that North sea oil/gas has much life left in it. It way past its peak. As it happens I am very pleased about that as I think it was the cause of the collapse in manufacturing via “crowding out”. I will assume you know what I am talking about.

The ability of Scotland to do this and free University education etc is entirely based on them getting a larger subsidy/payment from central government. Without this how will they pay for it all these extras? I am at a loss as to why people have not seen such an obvious fact??

Is it? Proof?

How about we save money in other places, tax accordingly etc etc Maybe this is what Eck means when we wants to model us on Scandinavia, high taxes but with a great quality of life? I don’t know, but saying Scotland cant afford to do these things seems to be deliberately missing the fact savings can be made elsewhere, if need be.

I doubt that North sea oil/gas has much life left in it. It way past its peak. As it happens I am very pleased about that as I think it was the cause of the collapse in manufacturing via “crowding out”. I will assume you know what I am talking about.

I partially agree on the NS Oil. Reserves are getting harder to get to maintenance costs are rising. Income will still be there for quite a while assuming investment keeps coming, which may require some sweeteners, but I can’t see it disappearing totally all that quickly. I do think focusing on the wealth etc that it will bring is a mistake though.

I am guessing that you are referring to the fact that NS oil led to an appreciation of the £ which made the decline of heavy industry in Scotland (and elsewhere in UK) all the more painful. Couldn’t possibly happen again could it?!?!

High taxes – he wants a tax competitive state. Hard to see that meaning high taxes.

. teamhurtmore – Member
I am guessing that you are referring to the fact that NS oil led to an appreciation of the £ which made the decline of heavy industry in Scotland (and elsewhere in UK) all the more painful. Couldn’t possibly happen again could it?!?!

No saying the opposite as the oil sales fall the £ should decline making exports cheaper imports more expensive.

SD-253 – Member

The ability of Scotland to do this and free University education etc is entirely based on them getting a larger subsidy/payment from central government.

COSLA’s estimates say the bedroom tax costs Scotland £8m more than it raises. And now it seems like we’re going to have to pay even more to mitigate the negative effects, despite there being little evidence that there’s any positive effect at all. Certainly the supposed £500m saving doesn’t exist.

It is exactly the sort of thing that drives people to the independence camp, something has come from Westminster that makes no sense in Scotland (or, for that matter, much of the UK). Actually abolishing the bedroom tax in Scotland (or rewinding the clock so we never had to introduce the damn-fool thing) is really the sensible option but sadly we’re not able to do that. Instead we have to pay twice to fix someone else’s mistake.

I can’t get into the “scotland is subsidised” thing without me and THM getting in a war for 3 days and it doesn’t achieve a thing so let’s just say, it’s not that simple and much has already been said on the subject.

Either way, vulnerability to a potentially volatile commodity is an issue. It’s never a one way street to paradise.

Actually NW isn’t it pretty simple – Scotland spends and raises more revenue per head. Net, net, not a real issue, unless of course the revenues sources is a risky one!! 😉

Bedroom tax results in hire costs only in the short term and 8 million is a meaning less figure hardly worth discussing.
As people move out of houses that are considered to big and into smaller houses this frees up these houses for larger families (morally the right thing to do). As most will probably be renting in the private sector where rent is more expensive this will result in a fall in housing benefit as private renting is more expensive. Problem there is a relative shortage of smaller accommodation.
I don’t understand why it has resuled in higher costs?
I see no reason why the bedroom tax will drive people towards the SNP. It is about benefit payments and as the majority aren’t on benefits they don’t actually care one iota. In fact probably the other way round.

SD, where to start.

First, “only in the short term”- no. The houses/flats required simply don’t exist, building tens of thousands of new flats doesn’t happen in the short term even if you’ve got infinite money to pay for it.

Freeing up houses for larger families- this is the concept, the reality is that single bedroom accomodation is the most stressed area, so what this actually does is push more people into the area where there is the greatest lack. We have housing associations talking about demolishing perfectly good 2- and 3-bedroom accomodation because they can’t fill it. (this isn’t a Scottish exclusive)

You “don’t understand why it’s resulted in higher costs”, clearly not. Extra administrative costs, extra support costs for those impacted, and massive increases in rent arrears (increasing rent doesn’t mean increasing revenue- the government fantasy figures assume the entire increase will be paid!),and pushing council residents into private accomodation increases housing benefit costs (and means rents are paid into the private sector not the public, so a double loss). This is all leaving aside the cost of building new homes.

Why should this push people to vote Yes? (not “towards the SNP”). Incredibly simple- Westminster imposes a change that doesn’t work for Scotland, Scotland has to pay to fix it. And you don’t have to be on benefits to disapprove when people are treated badly. You certainly don’t need to be on benefits to disapprove of money being spent badly, where the main outcomes are negative.

And as for £8m being “meanless, hardly worth discussing” why then did you think the £13m extra cost of mitigating the damage caused by the bedroom tax is worth discussing?

The cash cost is of course only one cost- this is driving vulnerable people into debt, a 31% increase in the number of residents in arrears directly attributed to the bedroom tax. People who don’t have the option of moving, because the smaller houses don’t exist.

SD-253 – Member
…The ability of Scotland to do this and free University education etc is entirely based on them getting a larger subsidy/payment from central government. Without this how will they pay for it all these extras? I am at a loss as to why people have not seen such an obvious fact??

I love the way it is assumed that Scotland can’t or won’t be able to afford this or that.

Scotland will an independent state setting its own priorities and budget, not blindly following the imperial posturing of the future English government.

If something doesn’t work, and there be a few of those things, we can change our policies.

One thing we won’t be doing is chucking enormous amounts of money into weapons of mass destruction or waging foreign wars.

This frees up a few bob for stuff which actually has benefits for the population.

The sad thing is that all the negative propaganda isn’t new. It’s as if the government is recycling the crap they used as each colony reached for independence.

Some very good points there Northwind. I agree as I stated there is a shortage of small accommodation. Although I have never met anyone who has had difficulty getting a single bedroom house/flat. Both in Manchester and Lincolnshire and I know quite a few who are or were on benefit. Obviously not a statistic. A suggestion not practical in all cases but dividing 2 3 or 4 bedroom houses into smaller 1 bedroom houses is not always impractical. My mother did it with a 6 bedroom house.
And as for

£8m being meanless, hardly worth discussing why then did you think the £13m extra cost of mitigating the damage caused by the bedroom tax is worth discussing?

That is an idiotic question you brought it up as reason for leaving the union and that is what we are talking about.

Why should this push people to vote Yes? (not “towards the SNP”). Incredibly simple- Westminster imposes a change that doesn’t work for Scotland, Scotland has to pay to fix it. And you don’t have to be on benefits to disapprove when people are treated badly.

. I say this again Northwind the vast majority of people could not give a monkeys about the so-called bedroom tax. Your views are statistically worthless. You will get a tiny meaning less amount of voters by using that as reason for leaving the union.
I have said this a few times I really want rid of Scotland from the union. My view of the Scottish, based entirely on experience is you are bunch of ******. The *s does not add up to particular word but if you can think of one with negative connotation please use it. Vote yes for indendence please!

SD-253 – Member

That is an idiotic question you brought it up as reason for leaving the union

Er no I did not. And it’s just up the page so everyone else can see you’re talking pish too 😆 I even quoted you in my first post on the subject.

Apparently quite a lot of people do care- it’s national news, raised repeatedly in the Scottish and Westminster parliaments. The tories think enough people care to bring it in as part of their benefit-bashing agenda.

Northwind
This is from your posting

.And as for £8m being “meanless, hardly worth discussing” why then did you think the £13m extra cost of mitigating the damage caused by the bedroom tax is worth discussing?

Sd. Keep it pleasant please.

Epicyclo – what is the scale in reduction of defence spending that is being planned to spend on other things?

.teamhurtmore – Member
Sd. Keep it pleasant please.

I will endeavour to do so!

The report you link to is interesting ninfan but refers to a different survey. The JRF also found that levels of child poverty fell during the recession, but the fall stopped during the recession.
SD-253 an independent Scotland can choose to spend it’s money on different policies as it sees fit. Perhaps you now will admit there are areas other than immigration where Scotland has different priorities and needs from the rUK.
I asked what the Uk govt would do to bring children out of poverty? It’s informative that all the responses from pro union people amount to attacks on the SNP policy. Not one policy put forward. Nothing.
Edit to make clear that I was referring to my earlier question .

By the way Northwind will you have an army or will we be expected to protect you? No doubt you are about to predict the future and say you won’t need one.

Yes, that is me, and it was posted as a response to this:

SD-253 – Member

The ability of Scotland to do this and free University education etc is entirely based on them getting a larger subsidy/payment from central government.

Remember?

Some extreme bellendery from SD….

My point is they won’t have enough money to keep there spending promises. This

SD-253 an independent Scotland can choose to spend it’s money on different policies as it sees fit.

does not in way address that problem. I haven’t seen much in the way of policies of any substance from the pros other than the English are horrible to us.

. Nobeerinthefridge – Member
Some extreme bellendery from SD….

Now now this

teamhurtmore – Member
Sd. Keep it pleasant please.

applies to both of us. And your statement hardly adds to the debate!

Sd-253 Funny that you have been arguing about a couple of policies for the last 3 hours. As for this

I haven’t seen much in the way of policies of any substance from the pros other than the English are horrible to us.

] That’s just a product of your own fevered imagination.

.gordimhor – Member
Sd-253 Funny that you have been arguing about a couple of policies for the last 3 hours. As for this

What’s funny about it and couple of policies I don’t think so. I have been arguing about it for 3 hours because there is nothing on the television.

I haven’t seen much in the way of policies of any substance from the pros other than the English are horrible to us.
] That’s just a product of your own fevered imagination.

Do you mean “other than the English are horrible is just a product of your own fevered imagination” ? I am afraid I hear the equivalent far to often to agree.

3 hours on a subject you don’t even get to vote on so whatever opinions you have just don’t count – what a waste of time, how sad.
And your attempt at a devastatingly witty reply will be just as wasted because
I’m away now. Toodle pip.

.ChubbyBlokeInLycra – Member
3 hours on a subject you don’t even get to vote on so whatever opinions you have just don’t count – what a waste of time, how sad.

Says it all can’t vote on a policy which clearly effects me. And not even entitled to have a view on it. If that’s not sad what is? Jock by any chance ChubbyBlokeInLycra? If not what are you doing on here?

Sd-253 Well if you can’t see any irony in your arguing that the Scottish government has no policies other than on the immigration issue and then posting about their policies for 3 hours. ….

SD-253 is obviously glaikit. Don’t be too harsh on the little man, you can’t expect him to see such things as irony in his postings.

.gordimhor – Member
Sd-253 Well if you can’t see any irony in your arguing that the Scottish government has no policies other than on the immigration issue and then posting about their policies for 3 hours. ….

. I merely counter arguments that are being put up about my views. If I fail to answer them It will be assumed that the other person has won. Also the telly is crap

.3 hours on a subject you don’t even get to vote on so whatever opinions you have just don’t count – what a waste of time, how sad.

I see no irony here, not a spec. A normal person would find it obnoxious. You seem to think it is an acceptable view?