Is that a serious question?

It’s a rhetorical one. I got much faster by thinking. Of course I have continued to improve via training, but thinking still worked very well. Still not seeing why it’s such a bad thing.

Do you think about your style when you are running? Do you literally think about your foot strike etc mid stride?

Yes. I try to get used to doing it right, and I experiment with a few different ideas during a run. Training isn’t all about legs and lungs, is it?

You may have naturally done it right from the start, I was naturally doing it wrong. So it seems appropriate to try and do it right, doesn’t it?

Or are you saying that technique is not important in running?

Based on this, but without knowing what speeds you are running, I would guess that you had to run faster in order to forefoot strike successfully.

Well no, the time I did it was on a treadmill, so the speed was the same. I just found it dramatically easier.

Are you suggesting that I suddenly gained a minute over the course of a few days and then ended up forefoot striking as a consequence?

Well no, the time I did it was on a treadmill, so the speed was the same. I just found it dramatically easier.

Are you suggesting that I suddenly gained a minute over the course of a few days and then ended up forefoot striking as a consequence?

Eh? So you did or didn’t lose a minute over night?

I think that if you’d gone out and done some sprint intervals your legs would’ve worked it out.

Or are you saying that technique is not important in running?

Bit mischevious of you, you rascal. 🙂

No technique is hugely important but in my opinion is a “by product” of striving for speed. Having said that since I (and many faster runners)were trounced many years ago by a scruffy looking runner who looked awful warming up (Hugh Jones) “style” “form” “technique” is not everything!
I do think there is a “rough” correlation between those things and the surface and distance involved.
Very generally track runners tend to be more stylish and the longer the distance gets the less important (although still very much so) style becomes.
If you watch a long distance race there are occasopnally less stylish runners who are very effective. Having said that even marathon runners have track background now unlike 20 years ago.

I’m confused now, how does the treadmill figure into this? the speed was the same so it wasn’t quicker, you just found it easier?

I think that’s an interesting question. It’s one way to classify runners, those that think about things, those that don’t. Same as those that think about the discomfort of working hard, and those that tend to zone out.

One guy I know spent so long working on form, he almost never just ‘went out for a run’ for around 12 months. Drills, intervals, stances, etc. That would kill me. Mind you, he now earns a nice little second income Pose coaching.

Another really handy fell runner (England vet) often goes on about ‘getting his breathing right’. I have no idea what he’s talking about 🙂

No technique is hugely important but in my opinion is a “by product” of striving for speed.

Well, not for me, I can testify. A more efficient gait means more speed for the same effort. Much like swimming.

Actually, I should clarify there. I have always done forefoot striking when running sufficiently fast, but only at the kind of pace I could keep up for 200m. On the treadmill what I actually did was run as if I were sprinting, and that’s what made it lots easier.

those that think about things, those that don’t.

Those that don’t think about it and don’t have naturally good technique are those that hate running and don’t do it.

I managed to go from a hater to an enjoyer by sorting my technique out. I didn’t just give up because I hated being crap.

Well, not for me, I can testify. A more efficient gait means more speed for the same effort. Much like swimming.

What training distances/frequency are we talking about?

I’m talking about ANY running that isn’t sprinting.

I’m confused now, how does the treadmill figure into this? the speed was the same so it wasn’t quicker, you just found it easier?

Phil – yes. I was on the treadmill, and thought I’d try running on my toes – result, much easier. Then next time I went outside to try the same technique and found myself to be a minute faster (or some large figure, I forget).

I posted about it on here in fact.

What training distances/frequency are we talking about?

+1

I read something by Stephen McGregor who’s done a lot of studying into running for you running geeks…

McGregor’s studies indicate that there is no such thing as good running form. Rather, skillful running is the result of an unconscious, evolutionary process wherein each runner’s unique body finds its own best way to run economically, resulting in a form that is slightly different from that of any other runner.

Now go out there and run.

I didn’t just give up because I hated being crap.

I suspect you are not crap and anyone who perseveres is an athlete in my book 🙂

Are you suggesting that I suddenly gained a minute over the course of a few days and then ended up forefoot striking as a consequence?

No, worded like that would suggest it (the forefoot striking) was a by product of running faster and was not a concious decission.

I said maybe in order to move away from a heel to a forefoot strike, as a concious decision, you had to run faster. As heel striking is more natural below a certain speed*.

The fact that you then found forefoot striking easier is the by product.

Basicly, ‘running faster allowed you to run faster (by allowing you to forefoot strike)’ not ‘forefoot striking allowed you to run faster’.

EDIT:
*I’m not claiming this as fact, just what I believe.

…As heel striking is more natural below a certain speed*.

EDIT:
*I’m not claiming this as fact, just what I believe.

and you’re wrong 🙂

try running on the spot, with a heel strike.

how natural does that feel?

McGregor’s studies indicate that there is no such thing as good running form. Rather, skillful running is the result of an unconscious, evolutionary process wherein each runner’s unique body finds its own best way to run economically, resulting in a form that is slightly different from that of any other runner.

would that also be an argument against using padded built up ‘corrective’ shoes to run in? because they would surely make it harder to feel your ‘natural’ running style?

I suspect you are not crap and anyone who perseveres is an athlete in my book

Yay!

Imma athlete. 🙂

Not you DD your still pants ! 😉

🙁

No, worded like that would suggest it (the forefoot striking) was a by product of running faster and was not a concious decission.

No, it was as conscious as any decision could be. I thought ‘hey I wonder what it would be like to run as if I were sprinting, but slower? Cos you know, the achilles and calf are meant to work like a spring, right?’

I thought ‘hey I wonder what it would be like to run as if I were sprinting, but slower?

So you used the technique that you’d normally use to sprint to run faster… madness.

Why the sarcasm? I wasn’t sprinting, so it wasn’t obvious to use my sprint technique for not sprinting, was it? There’s a big difference between sprinting and distance running, as you well know.

Because to me it seems like phil.w knows you better than you know yourself…

Regardless… run more.

Bit of an insulting thing to say Yeti. Feeling down about this whole thing now. You lot telling me I’m a fool and you know best, despite having not been there.

This is an interesting conversation so another serious question.

There’s a big difference between sprinting and distance running

Is there? I dont agree. Where does sprinting end and distance running begin? There is a continuum of speed between say a 50m race and a 10,000m race and of course running 50m will mean you run only on the furthest point of your foot but why would you not still stay on your forefoot? There is no reason to then run on your heel.
Both events are “sprinting” to some degree.

I wasn’t sprinting, so it wasn’t obvious to use my sprint technique for not sprinting, was it? There’s a big difference between sprinting and distance running, as you well know.

forgive me if i’m being an idiot, but:

a)i thought the only difference was the speed you did it at (thus impacting on how long you can do it for… the faster you want to go the more exaggerated the movements become)

and/or

b)if you already knew so much about technique how come you had to think/change/develop to work out that runnings easier when you dont slam your ankle into the ground?

iConfused

Where does sprinting end and distance running begin?

Next to the pile of vomit by the side of the track 😀

sprinting: properly on your toes, arms pumping away.

running: a bit more like mr soft…

You lot telling me I’m a fool and you know best, despite having not been there.

Easy tiger I’m not calling anyone a fool I love your enthusiasm on the running threads and certainly not trying to put you off. Sorry if it came across like that. 😥

try running on the spot, with a heel strike.
how natural does that feel?

Tried it, your right, there’s nothing natural about running on the spot…

In order to run on the spot you have to use a high knee lift, this is more similar to running at speed. Nothing like running at speeds slow enough to mean you are more likely to heel strike.

You lot telling me I’m a fool and you know best, despite having not been there.

Hold up, I’m not saying that at all and I definitely don’t know best. What I do have is a different perspective, good coaches and a bit of experience, only trying to share and if it comes across differently maybe it’s best I don’t?

In order to run on the spot you have to use a high knee lift,

no i don’t.

i must be doing it wrong!

🙂

my running on the spot style is pretty much the same as my running at 4min/k style.

Sorry… I did warn you I was going to get offensive if it’s any relief?

It’s also nowhere near as offensive as I thought I was going to be…

Where does sprinting end and distance running begin?

Exactly at your anaerobic threshold, I think.

surfer – I shouldn’t have said ‘you lot’ I should have said ‘Yeti’ 🙂 You are contributing nicely, and it’s appreciated.

Philc

– I didn’t know anything about technique at first.
– I had an idea (unprompted, I hadn’t read anything or heard of barefoot style) and I tried it out.
– At the same speed on the treadmill, it felt much easier.
– Over the same distance as my previous running routes, I was much quicker.
– After this discovery, I went to google and found a lot of information about barefoot style
– I then started thinking even more about technique, resulting in lots more experimentation during my own runs.

I used to think that I naturally knew how to run distance because everyone does, I realised I was very wrong.

a)i thought the only difference was the speed you did it at (thus impacting on how long you can do it for)

No because thats true of every distance.

You are contributing nicely

I’m learning, DD will be along to bollock me soon if I misbehave! 😳

molgrips – Member

– I didn’t know anything about technique at first.
– I had an idea (unprompted, I hadn’t read anything or heard of barefoot style) and I tried it out.
– At the same speed on the treadmill, it felt much easier.
– Over the same distance as my previous running routes, I was much quicker.
– After this discovery, I went to google and found a lot of information about barefoot style
– I then started thinking even more about technique, resulting in lots more experimentation during my own runs.

– i didn’t know anything about technique at first.
– i knew my shoes were causing me pain
– my doctor wanted to operate.
– i realised that 1 pair of shoes didn’t hurt me. i originally bought them for work, but i found i could even run in them, i was very happy!
– i went to a running shop to buy some shoes similar to the now knackered pair of clarks
– they tried to sell me several pairs of orthotics.
– i bought a pair of minimus.
– then someone gave me a copy of ‘born to run’
– now i’m one of those twatty running evangelists.

Philc

– I didn’t know anything about technique at first.
– I had an idea (unprompted, I hadn’t read anything or heard of barefoot style) and I tried it out.
– At the same speed on the treadmill, it felt much easier.
– Over the same distance as my previous running routes, I was much quicker.
– After this discovery, I went to google and found a lot of information about barefoot style
– I then started thinking even more about technique, resulting in lots more experimentation during my own runs.

I used to think that I naturally knew how to run distance because everyone does, I realised I was very wrong.

fair play 🙂 the way you mentioned contemplating sprint technique led me to (wrongly on my part) assume that at the point you already knew techniquey type stuff. myself… i dont run, if i did i’d stick to short distances as i’m built for power not for distance. used to be the second fastest in my school on the short distance stuff, boringly average for the EPIC and death-defying 1500meters. i’m the same with riding i suppose, the thought of riding further than 1500meters is exhausting!

i dont run, if i did i’d stick to short distances as i’m built for power not for distance.

😆

you laugh yeti, but its troo.

i’ll race you on sunday…. 5am, local school field with faded white markings of an old 400meter race track. barefoot, damp grass, the smell of sunrise….. BRING IT ON!

Mate, we’ll go at it teeth and elbows… victor takes the loser as his bride.

Molly – I’m sowwy. You do know yourself better than we do… it’s just the way you phrase things sometimes I guess.

I’m sure Yeti once promised us a 5min mile…

I got distracted with swimming…

I intend on getting to that speed by running more.