Asking for (or demanding) an apology

Isn’t  an apology a specifc word for say that you are sorry? If it has to be asked for the offender is obviously not sorry and thus the apology is pointless.

Town Planning was an Olympic sport.

I would defo demand an an apology from South Glos CC for their crappy decisions.

I reckon they still use SIM City (demo version) for all their current planning decisions to this day 😉

If it’s that important then you have to wonder why there isn’t a system to monitor everyone’s certifications.

As above… That’s a cataclysmic failure of management and oversight.

Yes. To a large extent the dentist in question was too trusting. He did have a system that required folks to produce certificates. She was forging them. There’s a point at which, I guess, I was only tangentially involved, that he trusted a long standing and otherwise ‘good’ employee too much. Regardless, a patient complained about some her work (she was a hygienist placing fillings) and the house of cards came tumbling down…Anyway, I’ve no idea if she wrote an apology to him.

She was forging them.

There’s a bit of a difference between an honest oversight and fraud.

I think once we get to the point of criminality then we are a bit beyond apology letters.

I think once we get to the point of criminality then we are a bit beyond apology letters.

So, depending on what the certificate your example nurse didn’t re-new, she’s in the same boat. It’s a criminal act in the UK to be a practicing but unregistered doctor, nurse etc. So, even missing it for a few days is an act of gross misconduct/negligence. It does perhaps put in a new light the ‘demand’ of a letter of apology if she managed to keep her job, and less to do with dominance.

Bruce – it doesn’t seem that odd to me to be “demanding an apology”.  Getting one is far less common!

in many disputes all the person wants is someone to say sorry or admit an error.  Meanwhile the other side goes into defensive mode – if they realised it could be solved with a genuine apology then everyone could move on.

i haven’t seen your nurse’s two versions of an apology – but a lot of apologies come in a “sorry but”.  If the first attempt diminished her culpability I’m not surprised it wasn’t considered acceptable.  It might seem odd that the chat gpt version is better – but presumably many people would have wanted to modify it (or modify the inputs) so it was “saying sorry without admitting fault”.

I’m less convinced that an apology is the right resolution for a sporting “loss”.  I understand her anguish but ultimately she entered a competition with certain rules (3 humans, no VAR) so that’s the reality.  If you want to make sure the humans see the hit – make certain it’s a very obvious hit.  Her competitor also had moments she thought she hit something and was scored against.  Both missed earlier shots – either could have won earlier by being a smidgen better, when it’s that close there’s an element of luck in the deciding factor.  If you don’t want that element of luck – make sure you are better!  That will seem harsh.

one thing though – demanding an apology has three possible outcomes:

– you get a good one and move on (I doubt the shooter will get a good one)

– you get a wordsmithed “sorry you feel that way” or “we regret this” or “sorry but”.  Then what? (That where your nurses manager was)

– you get no apology at all.  Do you admit defeat or double down and create a PR fuss with “won’t even appologise”.

The otherside is having the same internal dilemmas.

So, depending on what the certificate your example nurse didn’t re-new, she’s in the same boat. It’s a criminal act in the UK to be a practicing but unregistered doctor, nurse etc. So, even missing it for a few days is an act of gross misconduct/negligence. It does perhaps put in a new light the ‘demand’ of a letter of apology if she managed to keep her job, and less to do with dominance.

She wasn’t deliberately misleading anyone.  It was a cock up.  Cock ups happen.

Workplaces should always have systems in place to prevent easily forseeable cock ups from happening.  And this is 100% an easily foreseeable cock up with an even more easily implementable system to prevent it.

Given the NHS has a reputation for a ‘blame and shame’ culture as well as a bullying culture, this is just more evidence of that culture because instead of putting easily implementable systems in place it chooses to treat its employees like schoolchildren who haven’t done their homework and are given a punishment exercise.

She wasn’t deliberately misleading anyone.  It was a cock up.  Cock ups happen.

Workplaces should always have systems in place to prevent easily forseeable cock ups from happening.  And this is 100% an easily foreseeable cock up with an even more easily implementable system to prevent it.

True but as a medical professional it is her responsibility (& probably a condition of her employment) to remain registered. There’s a personal responsibility that applies in medicine that is different from the usual situation that exists in other sectors.

Bruce – it doesn’t seem that odd to me to be “demanding an apology”.

I’m still interested in whether this is an English (or even a UK) thing.

Of the two examples I’ve seen posted to prove its common elsewhere, one was from the WWE, the other was from Curb Your Enthusiasm.  In the WWE the ‘demand for an apology’ is designed to show one character being able to force the other to kowtow (dominance).  In Curb it’s just to use the absurdity of the situation for laughs.

Neither example suggests to me its considered normal behaviour elsewhere.

True but as a medical professional it is her responsibility (& probably a condition of her employment) to remain registered. There’s a personal responsibility that applies in medicine that is different from the usual situation that exists in other sectors.

When I was working offshore, officially it was my responsibility to ensure the 101 certifications I needed to even be allowed anywhere near a rig were up to date.

In reality I had automated reminders, I had managers who also got my reminders who had to chase staff members up, and ultimately there were so many checks in place you physically wouldn’t be allowed on the worksite if you were missing anything that was required.

Why is healthcare such a special case that these checks (that are very common in many other industries) can’t be put in place? And instead they rely on shaming employees after they make a mistake.

And instead they rely on shaming employees

one character being able to force the other to kowtow (dominance).

It seems to me that you’ve got a very singular take on what apologising means. Using words like shaming and dominance aren’t normal in these scenarios, and mostly it’s not about either of those two things.

It seems to me that you’ve got a very singular take on what apologising means.

No, I think you do.

In your definition, an individual spontaneously offering an apology after a mistake is the same as an employer telling an employee they have to write a letter of apology as part of the disciplinary process.

They might both technically be called apologies, but the intention and the power dynamics are completely different.

They are not the same thing at all.

When I was working offshore, officially it was my responsibility to ensure the 101 certifications I needed to even be allowed anywhere near a rig were up to date.

In reality I had automated reminders, I had managers who also got my reminders who had to chase staff members up, and ultimately there were so many checks in place you physically wouldn’t be allowed on the worksite if you were missing anything that was required.

Why is healthcare such a special case that these checks (that are very common in many other industries) can’t be put in place? And instead they rely on shaming employees after they make a mistake.

In A Scotland I have to have valid GTCS registration to teach. It costs £65 a year and I have to pay it, not my employer. My employer can run a search and see if I have it but the payment can only be made by me in the portal. We get reminders both from GTCS and our employer as all renewals are on the same day. If I miss paying for it, it’s a bit of a pain to get it sorted – apparently about 2 weeks. If that were to happen I’d not be allowed to teach and colleagues would have to cover for me.

If it ever happened Id want to apologise to both the school and my colleagues for the extra workload I’d put on everyone. It would be entirely my fault because it’s pretty hard to avoid all the reminders (no idea why payments are not setup to auto renew).

There could be some lost in translation here – as a manager if a nurse **** up as above I’d expect them to be mortified about the consequences to their colleagues, or the cost to the hospital of bringing in bank staff. I guess someone who just dug their heels in with a ‘am I covered?’ might be asked to write an apology letter to their colleagues who had to cover for them. And the ‘am I bovvered’ nurse retold the story that the apology was to the manager….maybe.

This is getting into semantics.

On what they do in other countries? “I’m sorry” is one of the basic phrases you learn  in any language. European anyway.

France? First hit on google was this – six template letters of apology: https://www.laposte.fr/modeles-lettres/lettre-excuse including for professional situations.

(My frencn isn’t really at this level but I think the french word “apologie” is a bit of a faux ami as it’s closer to the english word “justification”, though of course this is also  one meaning of apology in english. And as you see in the url, french for apology is “excuse”. II could probably think of something mildly amusing to me at least to do with this,  given time and mental energy…)

I’m still interested in whether this is an English (or even a UK) thing.

A quick Google of ‘demand an apology’ would show you it’s not, with examples from all over the world if you get past the first page.  That’s regional results searching from an English IP.  Try the same search with a country name after it (Scotland for example) and you’ll get plenty of local examples.  It also seems particularly common in the US. I don’t understand why you would think it’s an English thing?

On what they do in other countries? “I’m sorry” is one of the basic phrases you learn  in any language. European anyway.

Again, we aren’t talking about “I’m sorry”.  What we are talking about is, ‘I want you to say, “I’m sorry” to me.’

There could be some lost in translation here – as a manager if a nurse **** up as above I’d expect them to be mortified about the consequences to their colleagues, or the cost to the hospital of bringing in bank staff. I guess someone who just dug their heels in with a ‘am I covered?’ might be asked to write an apology letter to their colleagues who had to cover for them. And the ‘am I bovvered’ nurse retold the story that the apology was to the manager….maybe.

Even if that was the case, what purpose is this letter supposed to serve?

It feels more like the dueling analogy earlier.  The employee has besmirched the honour of their colleagues and satisfaction is demanded.  In the past it could have been settled with pistols. The equivalent of a duel today is presumably dismissal and then an employment tribunal for unfair dismissal.

If someone doesn’t spontaneously apologise I’m not sure what purpose forcing them to do so serves other than satisfying honour.

And in this day and age I still find that **** weird behaviour.

A quick Google of ‘demand an apology’ would show you it’s not, with examples from all over the world if you get past the first page.  That’s regional results searching from an English IP.  Try the same search with a country name after it (Scotland for example) and you’ll get plenty of local examples.  It also seems particularly common in the US. I don’t understand why you would think it’s an English thing?

I’m not searching from the UK.

Can you post some examples because I’m really not finding any that are equivalent of a sportsperson asking for an apology for a mistake made by official. Or whatever the hell was going on between Dodson and Gilpin.

Also, I’m not talking about politicians or pressure groups demanding apologies.  In these cases the meaning is different.

I could find some examples from the US of employers requiring employees to apologise in public but I’m not sure I would hold US workplace practices up as ‘normal’ behaviour.

Actually, here’s an example from a non-British person:

https://www.cbssports.com/tennis/news/us-open-final-2018-serena-williams-demands-apology-from-umpire-after-controversial-game-penalty/

So maybe it does happen elsewhere.  Still think it’s weird though.  Although in Serena’s case I suspect she was just completely losing it at that point and raging against the dying of the light.

And in the end it turns out the coach was cheating afterall:

https://web.archive.org/web/20201023122917/https://www.sportingnews.com/ca/tennis/news/patrick-mouratoglou-serena-williams-coaching-us-open-final/uu0mars28xk61dkz9jkmnpk4p

In Curb it’s just to use the absurdity of the situation for laughs.

But the joke wouldn’t work if the demand for an apology wasn’t something expected by society. The humour is around the situation that gets him to that point and the resultant consequences. “I think you owe me an apology” is a common phrase that comes up a lot in American film and TV. Not just in England.

And if you want more proof… https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M5BdBfhliwM

a sportsperson asking for an apology for a mistake made by official

That’s an incredibly specific thing – I doubt there are many examples from anywhere else.  The discussion on this thread, including your own contributions have gone far beyond that example in the OP to people asking for, or demanding an apology more generally.  It’s seems pretty clear, it’s a widespread practice without geographical limitations.  I agree by the way, it’s a ridiculous thing to do. Anything other than a spontaneous, sincere and unprompted apology is worthless.

Can you post some examples because I’m really not finding any that are equivalent of a sportsperson asking for an apology for a mistake made by official

I’m about to head out on my bike so haven’t got time to dig into that, but a ten second search threw up these:

World Rugby have ‘no plans’ to meet Scotland’s apology demands

Motherwell boss Stephen Robinson demands apology from referee over disallowed goal

Celtic manager Brendan Rodgers demands apology from referee Don Robertson after Dingwall penalty gaffe

Why do you think it’s an English thing?

I think the OP owes us all an apology for this endless and essentially pointless thread 🙂

…. or else 😉

Go on, say you’re sorry!!!!

Why is healthcare such a special case that these checks (that are very common in many other industries) can’t be put in place?

Because something that very few people understand about Primary Care is that the reason that we’re so cost effective is that we do things on a shoestring.

I’m about to head out on my bike so haven’t got time to dig into that, but a ten second search threw up these:

World Rugby have ‘no plans’ to meet Scotland’s apology demands

Motherwell boss Stephen Robinson demands apology from referee over disallowed goal

Celtic manager Brendan Rodgers demands apology from referee Don Robertson after Dingwall penalty gaffe

Looking at your examples, from the first one I’m not sure if Scotland actually asked for an apology.

Earlier this week, it was reported that Scottish Rugby was seeking an admission of error from World Rugby that the officials reached the incorrect decision as Scotland were denied a match-winning try.

I wouldn’t say its exactly the same thing.  Like i said, there’s an expectation that mistakes are going to be made in sport so asking someone to apologise for them when it’s understood everyone is doing their best seems a bit off.

So yeah, absolutely fair cop on your second and third examples.

Why do you think it’s an English thing?

Because it’s not something I had seen or heard of anyone other than English people doing.  I was hoping people might have some real world examples of non-English bosses requiring either public or written apologies from their employees.

Like I said, this seems to happen in the US sometimes but who knows what weird dynamics play out in American workplaces.

Also, if anyone had any examples like the Dodson Gilpin shitshow that would just be entertaining to read about.

Because something that very few people understand about Primary Care is that the reason that we’re so cost effective is that we do things on a shoestring.

So making people write apology letters when the systems that would normally be there in any other workplace is somehow a replacement?

I’m not trying to have a go, but I really feel it’s a toxic practice and most likely does very little to actually increase the chances of people remembering to get their paperwork in on time.

To me, it’s just a form of bullying.  Something that several areas of the NHS have a reputation for as far as I understand.

And again, just to be clear, I’m not talking about writing apology letters to patients.  That is a completely different thing.

Go on, say you’re sorry!!!!

Dear Everyone,

I want to sincerely apologize for the recent discussion that turned out to be more of a waste of time than anything productive. I realize now that it lacked direction and relevance, and I deeply regret any frustration or inconvenience it may have caused.

Your time is valuable, and I should have been more considerate in ensuring that our conversation was meaningful and focused. I genuinely appreciate your willingness to participate, and I’m sorry for not making better use of our time together.

Please know that I’m taking this as a learning experience, and I’ll be more mindful in the future to contribute in ways that are more thoughtful and beneficial to everyone.

Thank you for your understanding, and again, I apologize for any disruption this may have caused.

Sincerely,
[Your Name]

So making people write apology letters when the systems that would normally be there in any other workplace is somehow a replacement?

Yes it is. Having professionals working autonomously is a very cost effective way of getting things done, but it does mean that there’ll be human error and mistakes. As with all things there is a balance between regulation and efficiency.

The difference between medicine, especially primary care, and other workplaces, is the complexity.

Yes it is.

That sounds incredibly toxic.

Although it does explain why the people who work in the NHS feel there is a blame and shame culture and that bullying is endemic.

To be honest, it varies.

Part of the problem is that the root cause analysis almost always comes down to not having enough resources plus the tension between politicians wanting to show accountability and their lackeys who enable that against the fact that doing things cost effectively means taking shortcuts, which is what we are expert at as GPs.

Sounds rough.

I still think getting people to write (and re-write) apology letters for administrative errors is not going to reduce the number of administrative errors.

And even if it does, I suspect the side effects are going to far outweigh the benefits.

To a certain extent they are. One of the (many) reasons that GPs are leaving the profession faster than they can be recruited is because of the number of complaints that we receive. One of our partners is on the verge of leaving for this very reason.

Quick google of manager demanding apology got me Rubiales in Spain, a LinkedIn post from a tech co employee in India and a cultural rundown on the Russian culture of apologising (or not). There are loads of other hits if you can be bothered to search but some fun ones from Iran, Malaysia and Germany.

So demands for apology are global.

Spain

India

Russia (sort of)

Iran (Iranian Navy)

Malaysia (PM but asking for Meta apology – don’t we all?)

Germany

I’m not trying to have a go, but I really feel it’s a toxic practice and most likely does very little to actually increase the chances of people remembering to get their paperwork in on time.

If the apologiser does it again then they can’t really use the ‘I forgot’ excuse a second time as they are on record as having acknowledged that they messed up. That could be quite helpful in ensuring that people who persistently fail to manage minor tasks are not doing a job where there are major consequences if they make similar mistakes (cock ups) when performing more significant tasks e.g. checking for allergies, preparing insulin injections etc.

Perhaps the words confession of failure would be more appropriate.

To a certain extent they are. One of the (many) reasons that GPs are leaving the profession faster than they can be recruited is because of the number of complaints that we receive. One of our partners is on the verge of leaving for this very reason.

But in this case you’re talking about apologies to patients, aren’t you?  I’d say the motivation behind telling an employee to write an apology letter to the management is very different.

Letters to patients have to possibility to defuse a situation and reduce the chances of it escalating.  Making an employee write a letter to management is not really trying to achieve the same result, is it?

I doubt there is much to be done about patient satisfaction while resources are so stretched.  However, one thing that I definitely wouldn’t do would be to piss off nurses for honest mistakes where no one was directly hurt.  Even if it does reduce the number of administrative errors I really don’t see how it doesn’t end up hurting patient care in the long run.

But YMMV.

She wasn’t deliberately misleading anyone.  It was a cock up.  Cock ups happen.

Presumably the lack of culpability was why an apology was sufficient?  I suspect none of us (even you) really know the details but it sounds like its the sort of thing that is a “strict liability” offence – ie. its irrelevant that you didn’t mean it, your responsibility was to make sure it was done and you didn’t.

Workplaces should always have systems in place to prevent easily forseeable cock ups from happening.  And this is 100% an easily foreseeable cock up with an even more easily implementable system to prevent it.

How many workplaces with drivers do you think have really robust mechanisms to ensure that driving licenses are renewed?  What was it she was “in trouble” for? (a) not applying in time to prevent the certificate lapsing, and therefore not being employable for X days whilst the mess was sorted OR (b) knowing that she’d left it too late but not telling her employer her registration was lapsed….  two very different things.   I doubt that any employer has a system robust enough to ensure that drivers with 3 year medical renewal licenses are warned/reminded in sufficient time for DVLA medical team to do the renewal as that is highly variable depending on condition, quality of answers on the questionnaire, ability to get information from GP / consultant etc.   Likewise what easily forseable prevention (not just risk reduction) is there for the NHS to ensure that all its Nurses renew their status before the deadline?  They might be able to remind the nurse say by email, but it doesn’t preclude them ignoring / missing that email etc, moreover it opens up the “I’m sorry I forgot to renew but usually HR send me a reminder” excuse.   They can send the manager an email saying “X’s registration is due to expire please check its renewed” but that doesn’t eliminate the Nurse saying, its in hand or the manager being too late for X to sort it.

Given the NHS has a reputation for a ‘blame and shame’ culture as well as a bullying culture, this is just more evidence of that culture because instead of putting easily implementable systems in place 

My experience is its not a blame and shame culture – its a deny and coverup culture!  Getting people to admit that they’ve not done what was expected of them and show some contrition for it is actually a huge step forward!

it chooses to treat its employees like schoolchildren who haven’t done their homework and are given a punishment exercise.

Its not quite clear to me what it means that her manager wanted an apology or was the arbiter of that apology being sufficient but whilst you’ve assumed this is bullying and petty punishment, depending on the details of what she did its actually pretty lenient.  It would seem strange for a manager to say “you must write and apologise to ME” (and even stranger to say “thats not good enough”).  BUT it would seem less odd to say “if you write and apologise to [the Trust] I’ll ask them to draw a line under it” and then to say “that letter doesn’t really sound convincing”, try again.  Your friends-sister-boss-is-a-bully might actually be friends-sisters-boss coached her how to handle a mess she got herself into.

Letters to patients have to possibility to defuse a situation and reduce the chances of it escalating.  Making an employee write a letter to management is not really trying to achieve the same result, is it?

I don’t see why not?  Someone in the management chain is either saying “FFS we let this nurse on the ward when she was not certified” or “FFS this nurse can’t do basic admin so the rota has a short notice gap”.  I think both have all sorts of potential to escalate.  Perhaps we are desperate enough for nurses there’s nothing we can do.  But then patients are kind of stuck with the healthcare system too.  Neither necessarily wants to see anyone punished but they do want people to put their hands up and say “we need to learn from this so it doesn’t happen again”.  A “system” isn’t necessarily the fix to every problem – some personal responsibility is a good thing in any profession.

I still think getting people to write (and re-write) apology letters for administrative errors is not going to reduce the number of administrative errors.

I’m not sure – what would you say we should do with people who say forget to renew their car insurance (an analogy that many people here can presumably relate to)?  Would a grovelling apology to DVLA actually be a better reminder than a fine?  Would your peers knowing it was embarrassing and a pain, be a better deterrent than just having to “buy your way out” with a fine?  Had the Nurse in question been docked a days wages or required to pay a “late fee” to the NMC would you even have heard about it?

The difference between medicine, especially primary care, and other workplaces, is the complexity.

By the way Kramer, I call bullshit on this.  Medicine is full of “exceptionalism” (as are other slightly odd professions like lawyers).   Theres lots of jobs with life and death decisions, with poor budgets and resources, with high personal responsibility and huge complexity – Police Firearms Officer? Fire Service Station Manager? Criminal Defence/Prosecution Barrister? Headteacher? Captain of Nuclear Sub… etc…    Some doctors need to realise that they are really good at medicine but not at management and that its OK to let people who are not doctors do what they are good at and manage.  BUT I’d expect any of those people to be responsible for managing their own registration/certificate renewals not needing a “system” to do it for them.

My experience is its not a blame and shame culture – its a deny and coverup culture! Getting people to admit that they’ve not done what was expected of them and show some contrition for it is actually a huge step forward!

The deny and cover up is specifically a result of the blame culture. Which is endemic.

The NHS is trying to introduce a safety focussed ‘just culture’ but many organisations at place level lack the cultural and leadership maturity to implement it effectively, they also have archaic rules from governing bodies and the ‘we’ve always done it this way’ attitude to contend with.

Writing an apology letter to mangement is one such example of this, an impartial and fair assessment would struggle to come to the conclusion that it would be a appropriate or acceptable outcome to an error or mistake.

It’s a hollow and empty gesture that serves no purpose other than to serve an ego or clueless leader who has had poor development or mentoring.

@poly wind your neck in

OK, it’s definitelty not just an English thing.  Maybe it’s just cause I’m looking for it now I’m noticing it more.

The demands from the now removed Raygun B-girl petition (50,000 people signed it before it was taken down):

1. A full investigation into the selection process
2. A public apology from Raygun and Meares for “attempting to gaslight the public and undermining the efforts of genuine athletes”
3. A “global public apology to the breaking community for the unethical behavior that has tainted this sport”

This hasn’t done much to convince me demanding an apology has anything to do with attempting to find a constructive conclusion and instead has everything to do with bullying and humiliation.

Writing an apology letter to mangement is one such example of this, an impartial and fair assessment would struggle to come to the conclusion that it would be a appropriate or acceptable outcome to an error or mistake.

This is 100% correct, imo.  But then maybe I’ve just spent too long in Scandinavia.  Many of the attitudes shown on this thread just seem so completely alien and genuinely incomprehensible to me now.

I would distinguish between a personal apology and an organisational apology, I think they’re different things. The latter can be an admission that the organization treated an individual unfairly and should hopefully lead to it looking at its policies and procedures.