Asking for (or demanding) an apology

If you don’t get a spontaneous apology it’s pointless asking for one because it’ll be anything but sincere and thus worthless.

A quick search reveals it’s definitely not a “English thing”

These people are as far from English as you can be with their badly acted silliness –

A while back a floor manager (or whatever he called himself) from a large tech company, demanded a written apology from myself.

We had inadvertently broken a security rule  due to the facilities guys not following procedure.

I simply spoke to the chap the way he spoke to my younger colleague.

It got us thrown off site, never mind.

I didn’t write an apology, we’ve repeatedly been asked to do more work there and refused.

Its absolutely not an english thing. Watch Curb Your Enthusiasm. A lot of the jokes are based on an apology being demanded (often by Jeff’s wife Suzie) but Larry’s refusal to give one.

If you have to ask for an apology, any apology received as a result is meaningless.

The person whom the apology is being demanded from is clearly not sorry – otherwise they would have offered it freely. The would be recipient of the apology surely must know this so really, what is the point.

I think the point of asking for (and receiving) an apology is to hammer home the point that you were right and get one over on the apologiser. Its nowt to do with genuine contrition.

In context, it’s just asking for an admission of fault/error. Not particularly weird though not necessarily the wording I’d have used.

The would be recipient of the apology surely must know this so really, what is the point.

I think there are three reasons for doing it:

1. You’re trying to get someone to admit they were at fault and that they hurt you. Most people probably feel this should be accompanied by an apology and some people ask for (or demand) an apology as part of the admission.  I’m not sure what an apology adds to proceedings but there you go.

2. You’re trying to assert your dominance.  You are trying to force them to make a demonstration of contrition to show that they are beneath you.

3. Demanding an apology from your opponents is just what you do in politics.  No one actually expects anyone to apologise, let alone mean it.

It’s a sad, sad situation, and it’s getting more and more absurd.

Is it just me or is there something strange about asking for an apology?

In general terms, I guess for some people it could form part of some sort of closure process / coming to terms with something they feel is grossly unfair, but I suspect it’s often a sort of shorthand for asking for an acknowledgement that an error took place.

In a different era it would probably be a precursor to challenging someone to a duel… ‘Apologise, or else!!!’

Perhaps we need the reintroduction of duelling to sort out procedural grievances, mistakes, differences of opinions etc. If, for example, you felt that On One – to use one example, plucked ‘at random’ from the digital air – should replace your cracked titanium frame, you could simply decide the matter using flintlock pistols or épées, preferably at dawn, if your mutual schedules allowed.

I think there are three reasons for doing it:

1. You’re trying to get someone to admit they were at fault and that they hurt you. Most people probably feel this should be accompanied by an apology and some people ask for (or demand) an apology as part of the admission.  I’m not sure what an apology adds to proceedings but there you go.

2. You’re trying to assert your dominance.  You are trying to force them to make a demonstration of contrition to show that they are beneath you.

3. Demanding an apology from your opponents is just what you do in politics.  No one actually expects anyone to apologise, let alone mean it.

Or, more compassionately, as I posted above, it could be something that someone could use to help themselves get closure. I’m sure there are plenty of other reasons too.  The ‘dominance’ thing sounds mildly insane btw.

The ‘dominance’ thing sounds mildly insane btw.

In terms of the nurse having to write a letter (and then rejecting the first letter as not being sorry/sincere enough), I’m not sure what reason there could be other than to show some sort of dominance.

Or, like you said, the person demanding it is insane.

I think the Dodson Gilpin battle also falls into this category of ‘dominance’.  Both strike me as the type who would find this kind of thing important.

Or, more compassionately, as I posted above, it could be something that someone could use to help themselves get closure.

I think we’re getting onto a sort of different level when we are talking about people who have lost loved ones.  Yes, in that case it is probably related to closure and finally being able to move on.

This isn’t really the type of example I was thinking about when I wrote the first post.

I’m not sure what reason there could be other than to show some sort of dominance.

Given we don’t any of the circumstances and we’re hearing 3rd hand after you heard it 2nd hand, the first letter could just say “Ner ner you smell, and I’m not sorry” or may have done the well worn non apology dance “I’m sorry that you felt bad” we just don’t know, so to conclude that it can only be a display of dominance is a stretch.

But in your world being told to write an apology letter is a perfectly normal thing for management to do?

If I was expecting an apology letter and I got whiff that it was written by ChatGPT I wouldn’t be pleased. Even less so if it was a rewrite of a previously rejected letter.

Do you ask your employees to write you apology letters often?

But in your world being told to write an apology letter is a perfectly normal thing for management to do?

No. I’ve never experienced it or seen it. But nursing is a profession, and there’s an expected level of competence and well, professionalism. Depending on what the certificate was for, it could be that a nurse was acting illegally, which in turn could open the practice to legal challenges from patients which the practice/trust would be un-indemnified for.

I have seen examples where an uncertificated dental nurse essentially caused a practice to close and folks to loose their jobs and their business. In those circumstances a written apology seems like the very least trouble one should go to

also, you could argue that if someone can’t acknowledge what it is they’ve done wrong, as in say what it was they did or didn’t do and say why it was wrong, then there’s a chance they’ll do it again.

(I couldn’t imagine asking for a work-related apology, but a “what happened there, what could we have done differently” conversation could amount to something similar I guess. What you don’t want is righteousness or dug in defensiveness.)

I have seen examples where an uncertificated dental nurse essentially caused a practice to close and folks to loose their jobs and their business. In those circumstances a written apology seems like the very least trouble one should go to

this is interesting. Did the nurse loose her certification, or was she never certified? If it was an error on the nurses part, then the nurse would probably want to apologise. If the practice manager had employed uncertified staff the the manager should be apologising.

I love auditing

Now that is something you should apologise for.

Haha,  bite me.

I am a nice auditor, we help improve processes rather than hang them up by their ankles and beat them

we help improve processes rather than hang them up by their ankles and beat them

Ahh so they successfully managed to hide the real dirt from you.

It’s a sad, sad situation, and it’s getting more and more absurd.

I’d like that comment, it deserves credit! But the like button is broken, will we get an apology for that?

It was once strongly suggested to me, by my manager, that I write an email of apology to a bunch of board members, as I’d previously emailed them calling a certain process ‘a complete shit show’ and ‘unfit for purpose’ and other words to that effect.

I duly complied as life is too short, and it smoothed things over whilst I searched for a new job and resigned… but you can imagine how sincere it was.

It’s definitely a power play designed to subjugate a person in some scenarios… me in this case.

I have seen examples where an uncertificated dental nurse essentially caused a practice to close and folks to loose their jobs and their business. In those circumstances a written apology seems like the very least trouble one should go to

If it’s that important then you have to wonder why there isn’t a system to monitor everyone’s certifications.

I used to work offshore which requires an endless stream of certifications to get anywhere near a rig. My work knew exactly when everything ran out and gave me no chance to forget to renew anything.

Seems like putting a robust process in place to monitor things would be a better than making people ‘sincerely’ apologise when they cock up.

People are always going to cock up. A good business accounts for that.

I have seen examples where an uncertificated dental nurse essentially caused a practice to close and folks to loose their jobs

As above… That’s a cataclysmic failure of management and oversight. Yes the nurse was in the wrong, but that wrongness is far overshadowed by the fact there’s no processes in place to allow someone at such a ‘low level’ to cause so much damage.

Seems like a classic case of ‘shit rolls downhill and find a scapegoat’.

Ahh so they successfully managed to hide the real dirt from you.

Rarely,  but they do try hard sometimes.  Bless them.

We are internal so actually help improve the place,  when we go external they don’t seem to be quite so positive

I suggested that someone re-write an apology letter last week. It’s a fairly common thing to have to do in healthcare.

What purpose do these apology letters serve?

For someone who works in a regular job the idea of requiring people to apologise for cock ups seems ridiculous.

Either you have hired someone who isn’t able to do the job or there has been a failure in the process that was supposed to catch the cock up.

Either way, if anyone is writing apology letters it should be management.

you have to wonder why there isn’t a system to monitor everyone’s certifications.

It’s not always a case of simple expiry date so having one system to monitor various requirements across various professional standards across various professional bodies. It might just be best served by a self-certification system.

For example, asking each person at a regular interval whether they are certified or not. If they answer incorrectly they have failed to take responsibility, either through negligently answering ‘Yes’ but not knowing whether they were or not, or by lying and saying ‘Yes’ knowing that they are not.

For a professional that is not a big step to get right.

Getting it wrong is worthy of some sanction. Perhaps if nurses were not in such high demand, there might have been an alternative sanction e.g. dismissal or reporting to the professional body and being struck off?

As above, such is the shortage of nurses, dismissal might not be ideal for anyone, but acknowledging the mistake and apologising could be a much better alternative.

Who knows?

But with some (international) imagination I can see why asking for an apology in some circumstances is not a totally one-sided exercise.

What purpose do these apology letters serve?

They resolve complaints.

Either you have hired someone who isn’t able to do the job or there has been a failure in the process that was supposed to catch the cock up.

Or in healthcare, we are human beings who work in an incredibly complex and demanding working environment where mistakes are inevitable.

Either way, if anyone is writing apology letters it should be management.

If I’m a registered professional and the complaint has been made about me, then I have a duty to respond directly.

Who is making these complaints?

As you said, mistakes are inevitable. Why are people being treated as if making mistakes is some sort of character deficiency that requires redress in the form of an apology?

Who is making these complaints?

Patients.

As you said, mistakes are inevitable. Why are people being treated as if making mistakes is some sort of character deficiency that requires redress in the form of an apology?

Because, generally that’s what people want when they make a complaint.

Patients.

That’s good, I thought you meant it was a way of resolving disputes between colleagues.

I can definitely see why it’s good to be able to sincerely apologise for potentially life changing mistakes made when treating a patient.

However, applying that same logic to make a staff member apologise to their boss for an administrative oversight is not really in anyone’s interest. I mean, in most jobs the responsibility for ensuring all staff have all requirements in place is a big part of what managers are there for.

I spent a bit of time there reading about the blame and shame culture in the NHS. It was eye opening.

Thats the thing – when is an apology really an apology?

Saying sorry is a great way to shut someone up who has a valid grievance. You say sorry and they basically have to accept it or look the bad guy. Most people accept this and reluctantly move on – the person who says sorry may not be the slightest bit sorry.

“I’m sorry you feel that way” on the other hand is pretty much a taunt

Breaking, and that Aussie lady’s performance in particular has robbed me of the opportunity of pointing out shooting is a crap sport and  participants being refereed to as athletes laughable.

Please explain why you think it’s a crap sport? There are lots of shooting events in both the regular Olympics, and the Winter Olympics has shooting as part of the biathlon. Are they crap sports? At least the scoring is (usually) objective, ie it’s obvious when the athletes have hit targets, rather than subjective, ie did the skateboarder execute an olly that tiny bit better than anyone else? In the case of the skeet shooting, it’s classed as a hit when the target is visibly struck, ie when powder or a fragment is knocked off the skeet, which she clearly did – why the judges didn’t appear to have, or use, video playback seems extraordinarily stupid in such a sport when it’s been available for years in others.

In archery, for example, if the edge of an arrow is touching the black line dividing two colours, ie between higher and lower scores, it’s called as scoring the higher number, but at 70m it’s impossible to tell, even close-up cameras can be fooled by shadows cast by other arrows in the target, so target judges look closely using a handheld magnifying glass, and because an arrow can hit the target at a slight angle, pushing the paper in, it can sometimes take a minute or two before a score is given, so why don’t the skeet judges take that extra time to properly check using the technology that’s already available. The athlete deserves a proper apology, footage clearly shows she got a hit under the event rules, the judges, for whatever reason say she didn’t, and obviously are just not prepared to go back and admit they made an obvious mistake and revise the given results.

Oh, and painting was once an Olympic event.

Oh, and painting was once an Olympic event.

Yes, an event, not a sport. I consider shooting to be a sport, but not everything in the Olympics has to be a sport. Sorry if that upsets anyone.

The athlete deserves a proper apology, footage clearly shows she got a hit under the event rules, the judges, for whatever reason say she didn’t, and obviously are just not prepared to go back and admit they made an obvious mistake and revise the given results.

I don’t think there is anything unusual about judges or referees making a bad or wrong call.  You’d probably be hard pushed to find any sporting event that didn’t have at least one dodgy call each match.

In terms of the rulemakers, every change made to the rules is a a compromise.  You have to assume that if they decide they aren’t going to use video then there is some kind of thinking behind it.

I think there is generally an acceptance that judges and officials are not trying to ruin a competition.  Sure, they might make mistakes but the assumption is they are doing their best.  Whether there best is good enough is another question.

Complaining about officials, rules, and procedures is nothing new.  In fact it’s pretty much part of sport.

What is unusual is to ask for an apology.  Off the top of my head I can’t think of anyone who has asked the officials for an apology after an incorrect decision.  Incorrect decisions are just part of sport.  If you accept that fact then what exactly is she asking them to apologise for?