To be fair we’re generally going over and over extremes here, the Niche 29er SS crowd are not the majority nor are the IT manager on their £3K – 6” travel Dandy horses, they are extremes of the scale…

The “Typical UK trail bike” is probably a 26” wheeled, 4-5” forked, (2/3)x9 speed, hardtail, most likely with an Aluminium frame and160mm discs, this is what people can afford and justify it’s what they’ll find in many shops at various price points, and it will get you round Afan, Glentress, FOD, etc without too much fuss, you could race XC on it, you could have a pop at some DH tracks on it, it’s not a million miles from what the rest of the planet would recognise as an MTB… We ain’t that different from the rest of the world really…

29er wheel = 700c rims, so can use fat road tyres, cross tyres, or 29er tyres on my 29er. Swappage between bikes is much easier when the rims are all the same diameter. This is why I am getting rid of my 26″ bikes – it’s very inconvenient not being able to swap bits around.

So it only makes sense to get a 29er if you’re a cyclocross rider or roadie then?? 😉

aww.. Cookeaa, you can’t just go around bursting peoples bubbles like that! – there’s gonna be a lot of petted lips around various offices this afternoon 😉

you can get that stable yet flickable feel on big wheels too

here’s the thing.. No you **** can’t!
for the same reasons 26″ MTB will never equal 20″ BMX for technical riding or even trail flow for that matter

29er wheel = 700c rims, so can use fat road tyres, cross tyres, or 29er tyres on my 29er

I hadn’t actually considered that. I guess it shows that there is a sub-group of XC rider who also road rides, for whom riding a 29 makes sense.

I’m actually a lot less interested in the 29er debate though, more the issue of how the UK scene has diverged from mainland Europe and the US, and why.

The terrain and climate may have something to do with it, sure, but does the local MTB and ‘cycling’ media also not have a massive amount to do with it?

Edit – and I think its really interesting that DH racing is booming in the UK with most races sold out within minutes of going online.

WTF is a ‘petted lip’?

😮

GW – Member
‘you can get that stable yet flickable feel on big wheels too’

here’s the thing.. No you **** can’t!

Garbage.

If you were right it would be impossible to ride a motorbike offroad with their big heavy wheels (compared to a bicycle).

Flickability all comes down to how much trail you have. You can get the same trail figure with a steep headangle as with a slack head angle. With a steep headangle you would use less offset compared to the slack headangle. There are other factors, but trail is the most important one.

GW, you can almost get it, close enough that you realise that layout is the key to a bike. as i said, no point trying to replicate what a 26″ does well already, but no point writing it off just cos you’ve only ridden a heavy-wheeled, compromised geometry version.

when you say tech riding + trail flow, you mean tech as in style / tricks and DJ trails right? because riding a 20″ wheel over rough ground is sht and we’re talking about UK MTB traits and performance. if you’re looking for DH/long travel and DJ inspired riding traits a 29er will prob never be your bike, but for someone looking for more all round trail perfrmance there is more potential there than the current majority of big wheel bikes achieve.

also, ‘FFS’ about what in your earlier post? i’m not sure what you were getting at there.

Motorbikes are not a fair analogy. It’s easy to flick a bike when you have 40-50hp to boost it about with.

SpokesCycles – Member
Motorbikes are not a fair analogy. It’s easy to flick a bike when you have 40-50hp to boost it about with.

I’m not talking about using the power to flick the back end out, I’m talking about the ability to pick your way through a rock garden and the like where the ability to turn the bars quickly is important.

I don’t know many people who have gone back to a 26′ bike from a 29er, no doubt there are a few, but it seems to me that once you have ridden a 29er, 26″ wheels feel too draggy.

The terrain and climate may have something to do with it, sure, but does the local MTB and ‘cycling’ media also not have a massive amount to do with it?

I don’t think we have diverged as much as some think, and if we have it’s probably not due to the UK cycling media, they are merely the means by which the assorted “Big ideas” of foreign cycling companies (US/Euro/Japanese) are forced into peoples consciousnesses, I think it’s more evolution by environment:

People want to go faster down hills, then more suspension is adopted, they want to win XC races then low weight comes into the equation, they want to do a bit of everything well that’s where the inclusion/exclusion of certain bits of kit becomes more subtle and relative tradeoffs in function occur, throw Price into the mix and I think that’s how you probably come full circle back to the “Basic” 26er HT…

Over the last 20 odd years most of the changes in MTBs have been incremental, this sort of conversation will no doubt seem like cobblers in another 10 years time as the Emperor will have been through several new sets of clothes and we’ll still be riding largely similar bikes (with on extra cog on the back and yet another BB “Standard” maybe) trying to convince each other we’re living in the new golden age of the MTB and the UK is leading the world… It’s still just push bikes with slightly fatter tyres though…

I get the feeling that USA is just as fragmented as anywhere else. Here (Mid-Atlantic USA) is 29er central! 90% of the bikes on the trails here are 29ers and 75% are hardtails. (The trails here are far more ‘technical’ than most stuff I rode in 7 Stanes/Lakes/Peaks/Dales in a different way. Trails here are tight but flowing, short sharp technical climbs, rooty in places, massively rocky in other places.) People don’t ride in the wet for reasons already dealt with.

However, people who have ridden in New England, or the West Coast say 26er full sus bikes are the choice there, and it sounds pretty similar to the UK, trails are ridden all year round. The USA is a big place…

The difference in rider style between Inners/GT (my old stamping round) and here is night and day. But I wouldn’t want to ride my UK bike on these trails any more than I’d want to take my SS down the north side of Nan Bield.

gavinb, i think the media here reflect the riding scene and it’s then self-perpetating as new riders come into it and read the mags / websites. to generalise / risk stereotyping, we have a ‘get on with it’ approach and are interested in the fun less than the tech. another sterotype, the german market love lightweight and tech. their media and bikes refect that.

maybe there are cultural reasons for all this, beyond the MTB scene?

cookieaa, i think that’s spot on. basic riding attitudes haven’t changed in all the years i’ve been riding. bikes have changed more than the riders attitudes and we all go through ‘bike type’ cycles.

I think the media here reflect the riding scene and it’s then self-perpetuating as new riders come into it and read the mags / websites. To generalise / risk stereotyping, we have a ‘get on with it’ approach and are interested in the fun less than the tech. Another sterotype, the German market love lightweight and tech. Their media and bikes refect that.

A very good point I think James-O

You seem to omitting a whole subset of UK riders from this debate, those who have realised that their local trails are in fact rather naff, and thus opt to regress from their 6 inch AM rig to a humble CX bike and set out to own the local trails before alcohol takes a hold and one day the find themselves rocking up at CyB and feeling rather underbiked and vunerable in the carpark prior to achieving piles the size of a bunch of grapes and forearms that are truely spinach worthy of popeye in his best steroid induced form

holy lack of punctuation batman

Qwerty: i’ve realised that my local trails are awesome and techy, with lots of climbing, i find a hardtail makes them easier…

(unless i’m on a bridleway – in which case you’re right, a hardtail makes them almost worth riding again)

.

we have a ‘get on with it’ approach

which is why we ride cx bikes and hardtails and ss bikes more as you say qwerty? just for fun innit.

qwerty – Member
.

haha – excellent response!

it’s an interesting debate but i think most of you are getting hung up on bike types and genres. i have 3 bikes – a 6″ FS, an LT HT & a short travel SS. i have used them all for local XC hacking around in the winter/summer gloop, carrying them up mountains and blatting down the other side, trail centres, big countryside epics, jumping and DH specific sessions. they all worked fine and i always had/have a great time so not particularly bothered about whether they fit within the UK scene.

i’d like to give a 29er a proper run out but at the moment there are plenty more bikes i’d rather be throwing money at.

James/epicyclo.

go and find a 20″ BMX(or kids mtb if you’re worried the geometry is too different), a 26″ MTB and a 29er. Try and 360 them on eafter another.

No rideable Geomtery or specific rake/trail/Headangle in the world will make the 29er spin better than the 26, or the 26 the 20.

Epi – If you want to use motorbikes in defence to your arguement go and find TJ he’s prob the only one so set in his ways he might bite.

James – FFS = a massively tallented bike rider of most disciplines turning up for one weekend a year to one event does not make a full time freerider. the “Elbry” comment was entirely tongue in cheek

Cy Turner (cotic) gave a very interesting presentation at Sheffield Uni a few weeks ago,

part of the presentation was a small bit on 29er design…

here we go, in a nutshell:

one of the key factors affecting handling is ‘trail’ (google it), wheel size affects trail, as a frame designer, Cy needs to alter fork offset/head angle to get the same ‘trail’ effect with a 29er wheel vs a 26er.

sus’ forks have only really been available for 29ers in the form of lengthened 26er forks (not ideal), with offsets of around 45mm. leaving frame designers with no choice but to steepen the head angle as the only way to get the same ‘trail’

consequently, 29ers handled like drunk donkeys.

now, fork manufacturers are starting to make true 29er specific forks – with offsets of 50-something mm, which will allow slacker head angles to get the same ‘trail’ as before.

consequently, 29ers might be worth looking at. some of them even look good now.

GW, I have 3x 20″ wheel bikes, several 26″ wheel bikes, and 1x 29er. I have ridden them all extensively on the trails around here (yes, even the 20″)

The 29er is the best bike.

Also if the argument about the weight of the wheels had any water, then motorbikes are a relevant comparison because they have heavy wheels. It is not a relevant argument though, because the wheel weight difference between a 26″ and a 29″ is a minor factor.

If you are interested, try reading Phil Irving or Tony Foale (motorbike – but easy reads), and Y. LeHenaff on Dynamic Stability of the Bicycle.

Oh noes not this again!
Don’t waste energy on thinking about what type of bikes others ride (too much sus, too big wheels etc etc). They don’t care. Not even a little bit; they’ll ride whatever they want to and have just as much fun as you.

Man with firmly held conviction argues against another man with firmly held conviction: pointless deadlock ensued.

Other Man makes comment

GW, ok point understood on Gee / ‘full time’. fair point not made too clearly. rider contract details aside, there are riders in the uK that can cut it at that level if required but the uk’s scene, spons opps and terrain seems to support racers better than freeriders. USA / Canada may well be quite different.

anyway, fair play if you can 360 well, but i don’t think more than maybe 2 or 3 people on an MTB forum like this look for 360-ability in a trail MTB. it’s just not an example that disproves what i’m saying about wheel size vs geometry for XC-trail riding. ‘chuckable / flickable’ in a technicaly-capable trail mtb is different to a 360-able DJ bike.

are the most technically skilled riders we all ride with on 29ers? no. is that because 29ers suck technically? in 90% of cases, probably yes. does that mean no-one will ever make a good 29er for technical trail riding? of course not. there are a few, and they may well get better. the wheels themselves are only seem to be a limiting factor in the designer’s aproach to the complete bike.

yeah, this is about bike attitudes in the US/Europe/UK not 29ers, but they’re a good example to highlight the differences – as well as the way people write a bike off being something that perhaps all MTB scenes have in common )

‘don’t like’
‘why not’
‘just don’t, not ridden one enough to understand / don’ care / think it looks odd / mate says they’re crap’
‘ok but i like mine so maybe you should’ 🙂

time to go. sorry but my job involves NOT writing bikes off and that’s been an eyeopener cos i’m just as opinionated on what i like / don’t as anyone, so i can have this debate with myself 🙂

I think the big forked HT thing has a lot to do with the lack of lift assistance in the UK (understandable as the hills are mostly so dinky, especially in the Midlands). I ride a LT HT because I can, with some grunting and moaning, get it to the top by pedalling and still have a lot of fun going back down. From there it’s not a big step to think, ah, I’ll just get rid of the XC FS bike and ride this for everything.

epi – OMFG – I have read and do understand “trail”
but it seems clear you don’t seem to understand that to get the best handling out of them, off road bicycles are not ridden in the same way as motorbikes!! On an mtb the fastest most stable way through a rock garden has very little to do with being able to turn your bars quickly but if you knew what you were talking about you’d already know that.

J – being able to actually 360 well is irrelivent, it was simply an example to show you two that wheel size does actually matter in terms of “chuckability/flickability” – there’s a hell of a lot more to cornering than turning the bars 😉

FWIW – I never said I didn’t like 29ers. I completely “get” them but even on trails much more suited to a 29er than a 26″ mtb I wouldn’t want to be on one, coz I’ll always find something fun/interesting to ride even on the dullest terrain.

i think we can agree that it makes a difference. and i can appreciate what makes a ‘funner’ 26″ bike preferable to many riders on any terrain, my 26s tend to be biased that way since i was into 4x and DH on my chameleon years ago but i still loved it on all day xc hacks, i just don’t do that kind of wheels off the ground riding much anymore.
However when a rider can move a 26″ FS DH bike that’s 38lbs around like good DHers can, and knowing how varied 29ers can feel to hop / jump / drop over day to day trail obstacles, i honestly believe that the wheel size is of minor importance compared to other factors in the bikes design for how you corner and move it around.

up to me to try to prove it sometime i guess..

some laughable thread content and some good comments between the repetitive dross through.

I think the uk still follows what happens in the usa. Whether due to fashion, effectiveness or just parts availability i am not sure. most of the homegrown brands are trying to carve a slightly different rut as there is a small demand for it by ‘forward thinking riders’ but mainly because you cant compete with the big companies head on for the majority of the market. showroom appeal, marketing, brand, xt rear mechs sell more bikes over here than anything else.

In mainland europe mountain biking is still a bit of a niche for road guys to play with, it is changing but still heavily influences the bikes and style.
this is changing gradually and is likely to produce some very good riders in the future.

One thing that does seem clear is that everyone has more terrain to ride on, we just use what we have effectively.

29ers, not tried one yet but will do and like the idea for some things. i have heard that germany is the only place in europe where sales are starting to take off.

anyone got a cannondale hooligan? new niche maybe. ummm i think we use the word niche too often to make ourselves feel special.

Also, if we have such special conditions and demands why is it we only produce frames (that should really be design not produce) can someone not make a super mud compatible gear system and sell loads?
The big stores also seem to take euro bikes and sell them over here far more readily than they sell our brands over there.
Thankfully cycling has the diversity that the automotive industry is losing, i hope it continues.

Going back to my post – my point was that, other than a few more 29ers coming in to the UK (as well as home grown), nothing has really changed. Forks might get a bit longer, but the HT remains, the FS is still there and so are the niches. I don’t really see a ‘trend’ in Europe or the USA that is specific to them that we’re ignoring or picking up.

As for ahwiles’ post – either Cy Turner is 3 years out of date with his ‘research’, or you’ve gone astray a bit on what he said. It’s a bit like saying ‘suspension forks were a bit rubbish once – they are better now’. 😕

You could be right I think Ivantate.

Perhaps a big factor in the difference between the UK scene and the US/Euro scene is where we’re coming from. I’ve run an MTB Club at the school I work at for nearly 10yrs now and invariably the kids come from BMX/skateboarding into MTB, and as such, want to play in the woods on their bikes, many moving on to downhill, dirt jump and trials. Out of the hundred or so kids I’ve taken out riding over the years, only 2 or 3 have moved onto road cycling (one very successfully I hasten to add). Kids coming into the sport are ultimately what are driving the UK scene.

I get the impression that in the USA and Europe especially, mountain biking is more of a niche aside from the bigger road cycling scene (perhaps why 29ers are more popular as the standard seems more familiar?). Our kids are generally not so attracted to road cycling as a sport to take up, despite our success on the track etc recently. Freeride / Downhill / Trials etc on the other hand are readily available to them in an attractive form on YouTube etc. The boys I take out are currently obsessed with Red Bull Rampage footage for example (not my cup of tea!).

Kids just want to do what they think is cool, and as new entrants onto our UK scene they are in the driving seat over the next decade.

It’s a bit like saying ‘suspension forks were a bit rubbish once – they are better now’.

Isn’t this true though TooTall?

Surely designs improve over time as more manufacturers / designers / engineers / testers and ultimately consumers become involved. 29ers seem to be improving in this way, as have carbon frames and components etc.

Although AH seems to have quoted Cy Turner almost word for word I am sure at the end of the 29er bit he mentioned that although the fork crown offset standard has been changed for 29ers now it is only about half of what he would want to be added for the kind of riding he designs his bikes for.

Also, as he is now selling frames in the US there will have to be a 29er in the Cotic line up, what he didnt say was if it would be designed to ride as close to a big wheeled Soul or whether the rest of the bike would be designed to suit the riding dictated by the steering geometry.

a bit off topic but atleast shows that no matter how small the %age of sales you have to have a 29er in the line up to have a crack at the US market.

SpokesCycles – Member

Motorbikes are not a fair analogy. It’s easy to flick a bike when you have 40-50hp to boost it about with.

You’ve never raced an offroad motorbike have you…

You make some quite stupid claims from time to time but that one realy made me laugh.

Paceman – the fork trail issue was dealt with a few years ago – it just takes an entrenched public a few more years to catch up.

Road cycling – the USA has a more roadie-friendly network of roads – those smooth surfaces have to be a good thing. The MTB scene in the USA is there and big – just not the coverage. They even have schools competing against each other – that has to be good. 29er has nothing to do with familiar standards – they have a lot of racers and a lot of big country riding that suits the bikes – we have a small, crowded island where we cram a lot into small spaces! I think more people just ride bikes now – I know some hardcore roadies commenting on the ‘******* sportif riders’ being dangerous in higher Cat races – blurred edges between the niches.

Never seen a 29er in the flesh either
Are you taking the mickey? 4-5 local riders round here have them, mayber more.

Never seen anyone on a 29er round here either (W Yorks/Peaks/Calderdale)

Anyone thought about another aspect of the 29er thing? I think they will catch on more with the taller riders but at 5’7″ in height I think 26″ is best for me.