Anyway to establish when a parking fine was sent.?

Just receive a 100 quid fine through the door from a private parking firm. Other half parked in a private carpark where she claims it was not clear it was a paid for car park, however tbh I imagine she just didn’t pay enough attention to the signs

the charge related to a parking violation on the 30th April, the letter was marked 13th of may. However we only received it today. Which makes me think it very unlikely to have been sent within the 14 day window period they need to adhere to. There is no proof of postage date on the envelope, only some numbers and codes from royal mail. Any way to establish when it was actually sent?

Also..A pcn can only be applicable if breach of contract occurs according to the CAB. I do question what ‘contract’ she signed tbh

Tbh I’m not going to dispute the fact she shouldn’t have parked there, but if I can get out of paying on a technicality I will, as I have no particular love for these companies. And if I’m going got have to give 100 quid of my hard earned away, I’d much rather give it to a food bank or charity than these cowboys

Can’t help with the timestamp, but can you see any signage on Streetview?

Aiui that signage is the contract. If you stay you agree with the terms. If you don’t agree you leave, so there is a very brief time for you to make your mind up.

I’ll pop down later but as said, I’d put money in it being her error. And if so and if they followed correct process then fair enough

but if they have not sent the letter in time and legally I don’t have to pay then I wont

there is a QR code on the envelope that can’t be read by my phone, plus a code 1 B036407. Not sure if that tells me anything

can I ask that the company can prove they sent it within 14 days? I very much doubt a letter posted on the 13th would not have arrived by the end of last week.

I had this earlier this year, the Mrs overstayed in a supermarket and I ignored a couple of letters addressed to me as they looked like junk mail from the envelope

Sent in 14 days not delivered. Not unusual for business mail taking a week to arrive. Sent last Monday night, not processed by RM until the Tuesday. The cynic in me might also suggest it’s been dated exactly 14 days after the alleged incident, but could have been sent later in week. We’re not talking weeks late though and I doubt an appeal process would be successful on those grounds.

unlikely to have been sent within the 14 day window period they need to adhere to.

Presumably this is in E&W and you are relying on Schedule 4 of the ironically named protection of freedoms act? Section 9(5) of Schedule 4 requires the notice to be DELIVERED within 14 days.  The first day is the day after the unpaid parking happened.  i.e. if she parked on 30th, day 1 is 1st May.  The assumption is it is delivered 2 WORKING days after it is posted.  If they posted it on 13th May (day 13), the assumption will be it was delivered on 15th may.  Prima facie, even if they posted it on 13th may, and royal mail delivered on time – it was delivered late…  assuming of course you are the registered keeper (i.e. do you Actually have the V5 – increasingly common for a lease company in the middle).

Also..A pcn can only be applicable if breach of contract occurs according to the CAB. I do question what ‘contract’ she signed tbh

There is clearly an implied contract every time you park your car on someone elses land and (should have) paid to do so.

And if I’m going got have to give 100 quid of my hard earned away, I’d much rather give it to a food bank or charity than these cowboys

Now, whilst I am in much the same view as you – often they have a “pay quick for a discount” option…

Ok on reading the CBA website again. The parking charge has been sent to me, but I wasn’t driving and can prove it as I was at work. So I can write to them and they with need to cancel it and reissue to my other half. at that point it’ll clearly not be within the 14 days!

However the CAB advice below is unclear. No ticket was issued at the time, so do I have to have received the letter within 14 days, or is that only if the subsequent letter references the protection of freedoms act (it doesn’t). Either way, if I have to pay I’ll make sure I make it as inconvenient for them as possible!

Check if the notice says ‘Protection of Freedoms Act’. If it does, the parking company usually has to post a notice to you within a certain time – or to the car’s registered owner if that’s not you.

The deadline depends on whether the parking company gave you a notice at the time you parked – this includes leaving it on your car.

If you didn’t get a notice at the time you parked, you must receive a notice within 14 days of when you parked.

If you got a notice at the time you parked and you replied to it, the parking company doesn’t have to send another notice. If you didn’t reply to it, you must receive another notice within 56 days of when you parked.

If you didn’t receive the notice in time, tell the parking company you don’t have to pay the charge.

If the notice doesn’t say ‘Protection of Freedoms Act’, there’s no time limit to send it. If it’s delivered more than 7 months after you parked, you can argue it’s unfair to make you pay.

Fyi- I’m in Scotland, the car park is in Scotland, although the letter was sent from England

snd I’m the registered keeper

If the PCN says ‘Protection of Freedoms Act’ then it has to be within 14 days.  If it doesn’t then it can be months.  No, me neither.

Parking in a protected area is implicitly accepting the contract.

I had one recently, not dissimilar, the letter arrived right on the edge of 14 days from alleged date of issue.  They’re bastards but you’ve got little choice I’m afraid.

I can write to them and they with need to cancel it and reissue to my other half. at that point it’ll clearly not be within the 14 days!

It doesn’t work like that.  You’ve been notified.  Nice try though.

If the PCN says ‘Protection of Freedoms Act’ then it has to be within 14 days.  If it doesn’t then it can be months.  No, me neither

The CAB seems to suggest they need to have issued something at time of ‘offence’ ? Or am I misunderstanding that?

there is a QR code on the envelope that can’t be read by my phone, plus a code 1 B036407. Not sure if that tells me anything

Thats the Franking number of the machine used to create the postage.

It doesn’t work like that.  You’ve been notified.  Nice try though.

well I can notify them it wasn’t me so they need to reissue the notice as I have no legal obligation to pay it regardless of whether I own the car. Unlikely that will void the ticket, but it’ll take me 2 min and create more paperwork for them which is good. Sure we can waste a bit more of their time appealing it once she receives the notice directly, after which, if they’ve not given up I’ll just pay it!

Ok on reading the CBA website again. The parking charge has been sent to me, but I wasn’t driving and can prove it as I was at work. So I can write to them and they with need to cancel it and reissue to my other half. at that point it’ll clearly not be within the 14 days!

Ok that would be irrelevant as its only the notice to the keeper that has to be in 14 days.

Fyi- I’m in Scotland, the car park is in Scotland, although the letter was sent from England

OK in that case (a rather important point) – the POFA does not apply.  Accordingly you are under no obligation to respond.  That doesn’t mean they will ignore it, or that the problem goes away if you do.  In Scotland its largely a game of chicken.  They don’t know who the driver was and have no way to find out (unless there is CCTV and they go to ridiculous lengths).

To be honest, unless you can be bothered with getting lots of ever increasingly threatening letters for a few months and actually getting your facts right (you have to ignore most advice which is for E&W) you may be as well telling the wife to pay it at whatever discounted early payment is offered.

well I can notify them it wasn’t me so they need to reissue the notice as I have no legal obligation to pay it regardless of whether I own the car. Unlikely that will void the ticket, but it’ll take me 2 min and create more paperwork for them which is good. Sure we can waste a bit more of their time appealing it once she receives the notice directly, after which, if they’ve not given up I’ll just pay it!

If your objective is not to pay it will be counter productive.  You’ll just have “grassed” your wife in which is exactly what they are hoping for!  Do your research on how this works in Scotland if you want to play the game.

Thanks poly

so let’s get the right, if I wasn’t the driver and can prove that then I have zero obligation to respond? And I have no obligation to disclose the driver to them either?

and my next question.. if I pay within next 7 days the fine is 60 quid otherwise it’s 100 quid (which I’ll be having to pay as other half has no money). If I choose to ignore ever increasing threats, if they eventually take me to court, so long as I pay before that court date they can’t legally charge me more than the original 100?

im probably prepared to play chicken with them for 100, but not fir any more, and certainly not wanting to risk a ccj ( which as I understand it can only be granted after I go to court)

I would go to Pepipoo for advice. A much better source of info than here.  Also parking laws in Scotland can differ from England. You don’t say where the parking infraction was?

Is it a fine?

Is it a Penalty Charge Notice, or a Parking Charge Notice?

https://www.gov.uk/parking-tickets

If its not a Penalty Charge Notice, issued by a suitable authority, I believe they’re not really that enforceable, and are designed to scare you into paying up.

is the car yours or a lease? to put it another way is your name on the V5.

If its a lease the charge would have gone there first, and possibly within the 14 days

You’re in Scotland? I seem to remember the rules are a bit different but do your research!

It’s a charge from a private parking firm, not a local authority. Yes it’s my car, my name is on the v5 and I’m based in Scotland. But I wasn’t driving at the time and can prove that as I was at work

I can’t see why I am liable if i wasn’t driving, it’s my other half that is liable. But at the same time as far as I’m aware I’m not obliged to disclose her details to a private company. So good luck to them if they can track her down.

Be careful with that approach! In England you can choose to ignore the fine but the Parking Companies can come after you and win in court. Up to you whether you play the chicken game with them.

I don’t know about Scotland. So do your own research!

so let’s get the right, if I wasn’t the driver and can prove that then I have zero obligation to respond? And I have no obligation to disclose the driver to them either?

That is my understanding of the rules in Scotland.  If they want to enforce they will need to prove to the court who they had a contract with and there is no presumed liability on the keeper in Scotland.

and my next question.. if I pay within next 7 days the fine is 60 quid otherwise it’s 100 quid (which I’ll be having to pay as other half has no money). If I choose to ignore ever increasing threats, if they eventually take me to court, so long as I pay before that court date they can’t legally charge me more than the original 100?

No.  They will at the least be able to charge you the court fees too (IIRC another £20 – I’ve not checked recently).  Depending on the terms of their contract they may be entitled to interest or other late payment charges; usually people say “small claims” have not risk of legal costs but thats a slight simplification.  But you need to be on your a-game to defend it and avoid judgement against you because you were on holiday, missed a letter etc.  You also won’t get any compensation for your “day in court” if you win.  Equally they don’t really want to enforce against one individual in a Scottish court, especially if they are based in England.  My understanding is that most of the time they will bottle it before court if you’ve never entered into any correspondence and its a single “fine”.  If you make a habit of it they have more of a point to prove.

im probably prepared to play chicken with them for 100, but not fir any more, and certainly not wanting to risk a ccj ( which as I understand it can only be granted after I go to court)

Well you defintiely wont get a CCJ – they are an english thing, but of course Scottish Courts have similar credit score damaging outcomes if you ignore their orders.  If the court makes an order against you and you don’t pay immediately it seems that other sheriffs officer charges often get added to for enforcement/collection.  If you are in work that would likely be be an earnings arrestment on your salary.

In the past I’d probably have enjoyed the argument and happily taken my chances.  Now i’d probably just pay the £60 so I know its dealt with.

Suck it up and pay the £60

Is it a fine?

Is it a Penalty Charge Notice, or a Parking Charge Notice?

https://www.gov.uk/parking-tickets

If its not a Penalty Charge Notice, issued by a suitable authority, I believe they’re not really that enforceable, and are designed to scare you into paying up.

I know the particular case relates to Scotland and the law is different, but to address the above for England…. that’s bad advice. Google Beavis vs Parking Eye, it is very enforceable and often will be.

I have no particular love for these companies.

Unpopular opinion but what does a private car park mean? I used to run a small business with a staff car park that we regularly couldn’t use because of joe and josephine public stealing our spaces. I’ll only be 10 minutes…etc. Who couldn’t park there while your other half did? What recourse do they have, it’s not always a victimless crime and while the cowboy clampers of old were a blight, that was quite some time ago.

I was in England. I ignored the letters. They did, in fact, file a claim against me at the County Court in Nottingham or something (via Money Claims Online). I called them up and offered to settle without prejudice because I had a valid defence but didn’t want the hassle. I politely said I wasn’t going to discuss what that was on the phone. We agreed I would pay 50% (or maybe a bit more?) of what they wanted and they would tell the court they had dropped it. I paid more than what the initial amount asked for was, less than what they probably would have got in Court. You win some you lose some…

protection of freedoms act

Ugh

Pay it.

Im not going to be paying it as it wasn’t me who committed the parking violation. I’ll be writing to them to state that, and able to prove i was at work at the time. Likewise their cctv will clearly show it wasn’t me driving at the time.

Unlike a speeding ticket or council fine, my understanding, and correct me if I’m wrong, is that I am under no obligation to provide the details of who was driving the car at the time. And I’m certainly not going to provide the address of my other half to a Private company unless I’m legally obliged to do so.

Unpopular opinion but what does a private car park mean? I used to run a small business with a staff car park that we regularly couldn’t use because of joe and josephine public stealing our spaces.

fair point but this isn’t a company car park, it’s a large public car park. I’m not defending not paying , she clearly should have and I can’t believe she missed the signage. But ultimately i wasn’t driving so it shouldn’t be my issue, it’s hers. So they need to contact her for payment, not me

I’m not defending not paying

You’re not defending it but you’re taking a crack at it! 😂 Why not, though…

Nah, if the signage was clear she should have paid the couple of quid for parking no question. I’m not defending that.

But regardless, I don’t see why I should pay the fine if I wasn’t driving. If they want to issue a penalty charge, issue it to her..

And if I’m going got have to give 100 quid of my hard earned away

^ this is a quote from your OP. I really think one of you should pay it

I don’t think a private parking firm has any 14 day limit – that is for notice of intended prosicution for breaking the law. This is a civil matter so I think they have 6 years to follow it up. Either way you can (I think) just tell them you’re not the driver, and (unlike a NIP) not nominate your wife

And if I’m going got have to give 100 quid of my hard earned away

^ this is a quote from your OP. I really think one of you should pay it

sorry not following. I’m not trying to defend not paying a fiver for parking. I am however more than happy to defend my right not to pay a fine I didn’t occur

either way I ain’t paying it. They can ask the missus to pay if they like. She probably will if they send her a letter.

Poly is pretty much on the money, POFA doesnt apply in Scotland yet so just respond saying as registered keeper they can’t pursue you and you have no intention of telling them who was driving. Leave it at that, you don’t need to prove you weren’t driving. Don’t volunteer anything else, it won’t go to court.

England and Wales POFA applies if it is explicitly referenced on the PCN, not all companies bother with POFA even if they get the PCN out in time. So unless there is a correctly worded POFA paragraph reject it as above. If it is POFA compliant it’s a different ball game as they can hold the keeper liable. POFA doesnt then apply if the keeper names the driver as the parking company then knows who entered the contract and can chase them. Don’t try giving a fictious driver though as they will check they are real using a credit reference agency and it bounce back to the keeper.

Pepipoo seems to have died completely. The regulars have set up a new forum, https://www.ftla.uk/private-parking-tickets/.

 it’s a large public car park

Nope it’s a large private car park that the public can park in if they adhere to the terms and conditions set by the land owner, the people who paid to put the car park in, maintain it, pay rates and drainage charges, probably pay to light it etc.

Nope it’s a large private car park that the public can park in if they adhere to the terms and conditions set by the land owner, the people who paid to put the car park in, maintain it, pay rates and drainage charges, probably pay to light it etc.

sorry I obviously meant it’s for public use and not a company carpark for their staff. And I agree whoever uses it should pay the appropriate cost, in this case about a fiver. I have reiterated this point to my girlfriend..

So reading the OP carefully and then subsequent – you said it was a private car park which to me meant a premises like an office, residential, etc. and if you park in those and get a PCN I have little to no sympathy as per rationale before.

Then you clarified it was a large public car park, but administered by a private parking company. I’ve got a bit more sympathy here, because the charges are substantially higher for (in general) overstaying and to get whacked with a charge of ca £100 (reduced for not fighting it and paying early) is harsh – particularly if you’ve paid and just gone over by a few mins. OTOH, and since Beavis vs Parking Eye it has been ruled that charges can be at this sort of level because it’s not unreasonable to have a deterrent effect. So harsh or not it is legal. In the (good) old days where people fought the genuine pre-estimate of losses defence there was no deterrent – don’t buy a ticket and if you got caught simply say all they lost was your fee and a couple of quid for the letter and postage, here’s a tenner now *** off. Until Mr Beavis went to court and ****ed it up.

The contract situation is clear, if the signage is clearly visible etc., then you’re deemed to have accepted the contract by parking. The contract terms have to be fair though, see above etc.

The rest is technical and IANAL and certainly not a scottish one, but in England and I think Wales the registered keeper is liable so the ‘I wasn’t driving and I don’t have to tell you who was’ loophole isn’t there. And it is a loophole, I’m not having it any other way. Someone parked it there, didn’t follow the rules, got caught and it’s up to you as to whether you’re going to avoid paying on a technicality. You’re as in ‘the royal’ you’re, you know who it was.

I’m not defending not paying , she clearly should have and I can’t believe she missed the signage. But ultimately i wasn’t driving so it shouldn’t be my issue, it’s hers. So they need to contact her for payment, not me

I don’t see why I should pay the fine if I wasn’t driving. If they want to issue a penalty charge, issue it to her.

I’m not trying to defend not paying a fiver for parking. I am however more than happy to defend my right not to pay a fine I didn’t occur [incur, I assume]

To me the ‘moral’ response is to tell them who was then so they can contact her. Which may not lead to marital harmony, granted. Any defence along the lines of ‘not up to me to do their job for them’ or ‘I’m not giving someone’s details to a private company’ are convenient get outs rather than what should be done in my book – but if you hold that line then you will almost certainly (AIUI in Scotland) avoid the Penalty. Not in E+W though.

Was a 7 year old child involved?

I’d say pay it unless you fancy paying double. They’re relentless and just dont care, even if an excuse is legitimate.

These companies are as parasitical as it can possibly be. I dont drive, but i simply hate them for what they are.

And it is a loophole, I’m not having it any other way.

👜 👜 👜

These companies are as parasitical as it can possibly be.

Go back to the days of cowboy clampers, pay to be released and then try and get the money back and I’d agree. But not nowadays. As I say, having been the ‘victim’ of parking thieves my opinion has changed…. if the public played by the rules, including not trying to get off ‘on a technicality’ then they’d all go broke in no time.

That a few people who didn’t realise or just overstayed got caught as well….they’re the collateral damage to the thieves, same as we all pay a bit extra in shops to cover the cost of people who steal from there.