- This topic has 44 replies, 31 voices, and was last updated 4 years ago by kelvin.
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Another reason to hate e-bikes
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SaxonRiderFull Member
Not really. BUT… it is a discussion I don’t remember us having on here.
A friend was telling me that the process for extracting and processing elements like lithium for ebike and electric car batteries is highly, highly damaging to the environment. I have read this piece on lithium extraction, but am no closer to understanding what aspect is damaging.
In any case, I just wonder if, in the rapid advance toward a more electrified – as opposed to fossil fuel-based – society, we aren’t just replacing one substantial problem for another.
In the end, is it possibly our constant quest for technological solutions to “problems” that only sort of exist (or shouldn’t be seen as problems at all), that keeps doing us in, as opposed to the solutions we actually come up with?
In other words, are ebikes and electric cars just another false panacaea, and shouldn’t we just stop consuming so much stuff?
alpinFree MemberYes.
We **** about with nature far too much. Nature will find a way to punish us.
CheesybeanZFull MemberRemove humans from the planet and it’ll be a much better place .
tdogFree MemberYh sod ebikes and the want to produce them to flood shop floors however my want for Ti needs to continue …
🤣 Muhahahaha
esselgruntfuttockFree MemberRemove humans from the planet and it’ll be a much better place .
At last, someone else who seems to understand the problem!
**** me. Here we go again. 😔
& why not? is it not a problem?
A **** great big one?konanigeFull MemberI read somewhere that the Lithium only constitutes 1% of the battery!
CheesybeanZFull MemberCheesybeanZFull MemberPoopscoopFull MemberSociety going electric won’t cure all the planet’s ills but I think that over all it’s for the good.
Huge sums going into researching new battery technologies and it would be great if they are environmentally better but I suspect that might not be the case.
Still, electric over petrol and diesel (if the leccy is generated in a sustainable manner), hell yes.👍
LATFull MemberNature will find a way to punish us.
Never!
it isn’t just car and bike batteries. It is all lithium batteries.
molgripsFree MemberA friend was telling me that the process for extracting and processing elements like lithium for ebike and electric car batteries is highly, highly damaging to the environment.
From what I’ve read, the process needn’t be damaging, it’s just that the deposits occur in countries that don’t give a shit.
linusrFull MemberBetter to have an e-bike than to have an e-car – by a long way. Utilitarian e-bikes for getting people around towns and cities and even for getting people from villages (often very car-dependent) into towns or cities and back home again as a commute or for shopping is relatively very green compared to driving an e-car or worse. Electric cars weigh around 1,500 to 2,000 kilos of metal, plastic and all sorts of nasty components. And they pollute the air with PM 10s and 2.5s. E-bikes only weigh 15 to 20 kilos.
konanigeFull MemberSo really what we’re saying is that Thanos had the right idea!!
thisisnotaspoonFree MemberAs above, the problem isn’t lithium mining done well, it’s lithium mining done badly that’s the problem.
Photographs of open cast mines are great PR for Greenpeace but realistically are only temporary. That gaping orange hole in the rain forrest will be a lake in 100 years time and disappear back into nature.
And lithium is a massively abundant element in the earths crust. We won’t run out. The batteries are also recyclable so you only need to mine to meet new demand, unlike fossil fuels which need a constant supply in perpetuity. So while the number of mines will increase over the next 50 years, that’s a trend that needn’t and won’t go on forever.
Bikes are bad for the environment FACT
I actually did sone maths on a similar thread a year or two ago to show that actually commuting to work by bike wasn’t as greenhouse has friendly as you’d think.
By the time your food has been transported to your house by plane, train and automobile cycling actually still emits about 50gCO2/km just from the extra calories.
Now there’s potential to grow your own or only eat food that was farmed without a tractor or car or fertiliser or anything and get it down a lot. But realistically it’s pretty bad!
Bring on the batteries.
Also worth knowing that a battery powered car does about 70% usefull* work. A hydrogen fuel cell powered car does about 20%.
*Kinda, poor word choice as in if you put 100kWh into the grid and transported it to your car you get about 70kWh to use to move it uphill, heat up the brakes and push air out of the way.
BezFull MemberBy the time your food has been transported to your house by plane, train and automobile cycling actually still emits about 50gCO2/km just from the extra calories.
Surely this assumes that prior to cycling you were only eating just enough calories to get you through the day without cycling.
I’m guessing most westerners could fit a good bit of cycling in every day without having to increase their calorie intake at all.
DezBFree MemberDon’t hate the eBike. Hate the rider.
(not really, was joke. i love them all 😁 )
PoopscoopFull MemberJust to be clear, we aren’t seriously suggesting that riding a bike or ebike is bad for the environment??
thisisnotaspoonFree MemberJust to be clear, we aren’t seriously suggesting that riding a bike or ebike is bad for the environment??
No. It’s still less than half the emissions of even the greenest cars. I was just surprised that it wasnt closer to zero.
Surely this assumes that prior to cycling you were only eating just enough calories to get you through the day without cycling.
I’m guessing most westerners could fit a good bit of cycling in every day without having to increase their calorie intake at all.
Also true. But for fairness I assumed a steady state. The car driver doesn’t get credit for being on a diet either.
chiefgrooveguruFull MemberPresumably everyone here is posting on a desktop computer?
BezFull MemberBut for fairness I assumed a steady state.
Arbitrarily a steady state of obesity, though, not a steady state of consumption.
Show me someone who starts the year at 20 stone, takes up cycling to work and back every day, and ends the year at 20 stone…
Have you accounted for the reduced emissions needed for ambulances, delivery of medical supplies, insulin production…? 😉
thestabiliserFree MemberThat gaping orange hole in the rain forrest will be a lake in 100 years time and disappear back into nature
Errrr, apart from the toxic run off having killed the freshwater ecosystems in the area, with bioaccumulation of mercury, teratogenic solvents or whatever shit they’re using to strip out ore (more gold, REE and copper than lithium in this instance) that is….
DezBFree MemberJust to be clear, we aren’t seriously suggesting that riding a bike or ebike is bad for the environment??
Ah, reminds me of an old thread of mine…
https://singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/environmental-impact-of-cycling-to-work/thestabiliserFree MemberI think the biggest flaw with TINAS argument last time Was it assumed a high level of intensity from the cyclists as it was based on his Strava data. Probably accurate for cyclist types on here but for Joe public pootling in in his rigger boots and padded hi Viz on his rusty chained cube with a Rollie in his clopper the calories per km would drop away rapidly
thestabiliserFree MemberBit none of this means we should hate e bikers less.
The bastards
takisawa2Full MemberNever mind lithium extraction, it’s the length of modern hyperlinks that will kill this planet. ^^^
tinribzFree MemberBy the time your food has been transported to your house by plane, train and automobile cycling actually still emits about 50gCO2/km just from the extra calories.
Climate change is a scam to trade CO2 quotas:
jamesoFull MemberChild labour in cobalt mining linked to phones, cars and probably e-bikes now (2017 report)
https://www.thedailybeast.com/this-is-what-we-die-for-child-slaves-made-your-phone-battery
sam_underhillFull MemberNo. It’s still less than half the emissions of even the greenest cars.
Erm…. You seem to have included the transport and production cost of your “fuel” but not that of the car. How much CO2 is emitted to dig up, refine and transport a litre of petrol?
In fact, I think I remember reading that there’s so much electricity used in petrol production that you’d go further if you simply used the same electrical energy in an electric car. Which makes petrol a single use, C02 emitting battery. Madness.B.A.NanaFree MemberPanasonic are already on the verge of cobalt free batteries as are Tesla
https://cleantechnica.com/2018/06/17/teslas-cobalt-usage-to-drop-from-3-today-to-0-elon-commits/
https://cleantechnica.com/2018/06/09/cobalt-free-car-batteries-in-the-works-for-panasonic-tesla/
n0b0dy0ftheg0atFree MemberThere’s only one thing for it… Non-electric, human powered bikes with an aero 1000T sprocket. 😉
greyspokeFree MemberAny product made by any process (natural or industrial) will involve an environmental impact arising from that process. Whole lifetime analysis of the impact of any product is really difficult. For example a few years ago we wouldn’t have placed much weight on the impact on the environment of waste plastic, now it is a big concern. Similarly the water used in producing cotton has relatively recently become an issue. A look at the full impact of almost any product is likely to be a bit scary, but without a comparison it isn’t much use.
ETA also the human and social costs of making and disposing of stuff have recently also come under the spotlight (and rightly so).
PacemanFree MemberNo. It’s still less than half the emissions of even the greenest cars.
Erm…. You seem to have included the transport and production cost of your “fuel” but not that of the car. How much CO2 is emitted to dig up, refine and transport a litre of petrol?
In fact, I think I remember reading that there’s so much electricity used in petrol production that you’d go further if you simply used the same electrical energy in an electric car. Which makes petrol a single use, C02 emitting battery. Madness.As well as the huge environmental impact of producing a car – almost immeasurable when you try to break it down.
thisisnotaspoonFree MemberThere’s a thousand things you could add to that calculation on either side, what if the mechanic at your lbs drives to work, who has to pay for that co2?
It’s a fairly simple calculation based on eating some extra potatoes and everyone already having a bike and a car in the garage. It doesn’t in any way show that bikes are worse than cars or even close. All it shows is that actually it was a lot further from zero than anyone expects (as evidenced by how upset and passionate a lot of people get about it).
Yes cars have an embedded environmental impact, but that exists whether I use it or leave it to rust on the driveway. Yes harribo is more energy dense and lower co2 per calorie than potatoes. Yes if you eat any meat to get calories then the result swings massively (being vegan would save about 4000g/co2 per person per day). Yes you can account for the co2 emitted during refining and transporting fuel (about 18%).
kayla1Free MemberSo really what we’re saying is that Thanos had the right idea.
Yes.
slowoldmanFull MemberPresumably everyone here is posting on a desktop computer?
Laptop here. Smaller footprint.
cookeaaFull MemberJust to be clear, we aren’t seriously suggesting that riding a bike or ebike is bad for the environment??
Well… it basically is.
But I think we should be clear if you want to be as binary as ‘good’ or ‘bad’ pretty much everything humans do would fall into the ‘bad’ category.
The truth is its a sliding scale from most to least impactful, and perhaps we could all stand to look at the bigger picture and the associated environmental impact of all of our activities not just pick the couple of things we do that we think are a bit less damaging and claim we’re doing our bit…
You can try to minimise your environmental impact, as things stand today anything that genuinely does that will almost certainly cost you time and/or money, for real change to take place that economic relationship to the environment needs to be reversed.
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