Another war in Palestine

@tomd – I don’t think you are capable of reflecting on the nature of what Israel IS. – a criminal apartheid state

Respectfully, I have but we’ll need to disagree.

I think I’ve been called a racist at least 3 times in the thread for daring to have views somewhere to the right if George Galloway, which is about par for single-track land. So spare me the tears of the (accused) antisemites.

No obvoius parallels?   Lets see.  Creation of a ghetto. Sytematic stripping of land and citzenship.  Extrajudicial killing.  Demonisation of one ethnic group.

No.  No parallels there at all

I can understand why direct comparisons to Nazis may well be very offensive depending on the  context in which they are made, but Alpin’s comments really don’t fall under that. For them to have been in any way actually anti-Semitic, you’d have to prove they were deliberately intended to be offensive/discriminatory towards Jewish/Semitic people. Which they weren’t. So we really need to move on from that mudslinging, as it’s really not further g the discussion or helping to achieve anything positive. I do hope this thread remains open, as it is I believe an important opportunity for people to discuss issues openly. Which is vital if we’re actually going to get anywhere. I think many people have made very valuable contributions to this thread, and I do hope that continues. We can all learn from each other, so let’s just try listening instead of shouting. 

benos

@colournoise Alpin’s comparison was of the Warsaw uprising with the Hamas attack. He even talked about the dance festival where the massacre took place.
edit Bringing in the Nazis is bad enough, but that comparison was something else.

Just been back and reread the post to make sure.

That interpretation of what alpin wrote feels like a bit of a stretch (but then I admit we aren’t probably both starting from the same place on this).

Yes, his post mentioned the attack on the festival by Hamas but his direct parallel was drawn between the way oppressed groups might feel and why that breeds resentment of an occupying force. Anything beyond that either way is down to personal interpretation.

A lot of people seem to be confusing antisemitism with individuals, including me, attacking the Israeli government. One last time, it isn’t the same thing. What the Israeli government has done historically and is in the process of doing right now is wrong, illegal and sickening. Trying to defend that and claim it’s antisemitism to speak out against it is not helping the discussion at all.

Yes the state has a right to defend itself. I fail to see see how bombing hospitals, journalists, women and children falls under defending oneself. Ditto for evicting people from their homes and making land grabs. The fact that no western government, including our own, has condemned their actions is beyond me.

So, are we aiming for 5 pages of discussion about whether a single sentence was antisemitic?

My question remains.  Is anyone prepared to say they don’t think that Israel is about to ethnically cleanse the north of Gaza (and possibly the whole of Gaza)?

No obvoius parallels?   Lets see.  Creation of a ghetto. Sytematic stripping of land and citzenship.  Extrajudicial killing.  Demonisation of one ethnic group.

No.  No parallels there 

Absolutely demented. Can you spot any differences, any at all? Like a table and giraffe have 4 legs and you get tables AND giraffes in Africa so they’re basically the same by your level of analysis.

My position on Israel is basically middle of the road as in it aligns with where most western governments are at. But apparently too extreme for this place 

Very true funkmaster. But its the tactic the Israelis and their apologists use continually.

My position on Israel is basically middle of the road as in it aligns with where most western governments are at. But apparently too extreme for this place

Most Western governments are giving their tacit approval to the ethnic cleansing of Gaza.  Is that where you are?

NO I see no moral difference between the nazis doing those things and the Israelis doing exactly the same thing.  care to explain what the difference is?

My position on Israel is basically middle of the road as in it aligns with where most western governments are at. But apparently too extreme for this place

so you’re okay with the slaughter of innocents? You’re fine with that and the illegal bombing of civilian infrastructure including hospitals? You’re fine with power and water being cut off? You’re okay with millions of people being told to leave their homeland even though they physical can’t because the very people that have told them have made it virtually impossible to do so?

TJ’s parallels are quite damning of the Israeli state. How, exactly, are they demented? Frightening is what they are. That a government can do to people what was once done to their own ancestors and relatives is flabbergasting and would be unbelievable but human history shows that we’re a bunch of bastards when you get right down to it.

Most Western governments are giving their tacit approval to the ethnic cleansing of Gaza.  Is that where you are?

That’s a straw man you’ve constructed and you know it.

Western governments recognise Israel is at war, but are urging restraint. The bigger picture is here is avoiding regional escalation and everyone is treading that line.

Israel is at war. I’m not sure you get this. They lost control of their country last week and now everything has changed.

It’s not a straw man, it’s happening right now. Western governments are basically posturing and tutting whilst doing nothing to help stabilise the situation.

Check out Grant Shapps on Radio 4 panicking and point blank ignoring Michel Husein’s very simple question on this subject. His lack of response says it all.

so you’re okay with the slaughter of innocents? You’re fine with that and the illegal bombing of civilian infrastructure including hospitals?

Yes because anything other than outright hatred for Israel means I want children to be killed. Good grief it must be really easy when everything is black and white.

My question remains.  Is anyone prepared to say they don’t think that Israel is about to ethnically cleanse the north of Gaza (and possibly the whole of Gaza)?

I don’t think anyone can answer that question definitively. I think as a minimum Israel is going to “demilitarise” Gaza and seek to rescue hostages, both of which are going to involve a lot of destruction of state infrastructure, Hamas assets, Hamas officers and associates – and inevitably the civilians and civilian infrastructure around them. It’s going to be a cataclysm. Like Grapes of Wrath, but far worse, as civilians have nowhere to go.

Is it possible to demilitarise Hamas and recover hostages without innocent people being killed and civilian infrastructure being destroyed?

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Grapes_of_Wrath

Western governments recognise Israel is at war, but are urging restraint.

Countries go to war with countries, not terrorist organisations.

Terrorists hide amongst civilians so the only way to get rid of them is to remove the civillian population.  Which is what we are seeing.  Murder and displacement of innocent people and terrorists with little to no effort to discriminate between the two.

The question is if it’s not ethnic cleansing then what is it?  And what does Gaza look like after it’s done?  Do the Palestinians move back or will Gaza simply become Isreal?

Yes because anything other than outright hatred for Israel means I want children to be killed. Good grief it must be really easy when everything is black and white.

Maybe you’d get on alright with Hamas – they’re intolerant of divergent opinions as well and also dislike Israel.

I don’t dislike Israel. I dislike the Israeli government and their tactics. This isn’t black and white at all and nobody is claiming it is. You have made your position quite clear. By agreeing with most western governments you are okay with what is currently happening in Gaza.
Pray tell how Hamas are that different to the far right Israeli government. They are as bad as each other and innocents will continue to suffer as a result.

This is an intereting thread from Twitter. It follows from the first line – “wanting revenge is understandable; seeking revenge is a mistake”

https://x.com/Judah_Grunstein/status/1712754451260268581?s=20

Wow.

Comparing the Warsaw uprising against the occupying Nazi military force as ‘the same as’ Hamas uprising against predominantly civilians and the atrocities that followed – no, doesn’t stack up to me. Is it anti-semitic to compare the two, that official definition might point at it but I’m honestly not that convinced by the definition. But, it is what it is.

But other parts, creating the conditions that led to this horrific response – much as it pains me to say it I do see parallels. Whether the intent (to eradicate a race/religion/nation) is the same or not, some of the tactics are similar and hence it’s possible to say the some of the thing they are doing are the same as the Nazis did without necessarily saying they’re the same as / as bad as the Nazis. Label the act, not the actor.

I can absolutely see why Hamas has decided to act, while at the same time utterly condemning the actions they took.

I don’t think anyone can answer that question definitively.

I think we can say definitively that Palestinians will never be allowed to return to northern Gaza if Israel succeed in taking it.

Wow.

Comparing the Warsaw uprising against the occupying Nazi military force as ‘the same as’ Hamas uprising against predominantly civilians and the atrocities that followed – no, doesn’t stack up to me.

No one made that point tho.  alpins point was quite clear.

And what does Gaza look like after it’s done?  Do the Palestinians move back or will Gaza simply become Isreal?

Are you familiar with what happened in Sinai or Southern Lebanon?

EDIT. Makes no sense now that the post I was responding to has gone.

Are you familiar with what happened in Sinai or Southern Lebanon?

Somewhat, but I’m not sure if those examples apply here.

I struggle to see how the population of Gaza can remain in Gaza, and yet there is literally nowhere for them to go unless the international community decide to accept 2.3 million refugees.

it’s wildly antisemitic. It’s not “an ethnic group” – it’s the Jews.

Sorry I have no idea what you are talking about the Jews in the Warsaw ghetto were an ethnic group, in the same way that the Palestinians in Gaza are an ethnic group.

There is nothing “wildly anti-semitic” about saying that. And if you claim it is then that pretty much sums up just how casual you are when it comes to throwing allegations of anti-semitism around.

@colournoise That was a very Livingstonesque explanation of why someone might have brought up the Warsaw ghetto uprising in opposition to the targeted killing of Jewish civilians. You haven’t made it acceptable. 

So, are we aiming for 5 pages of discussion about whether a single sentence was antisemitic?

But it is always the case though, isn’t it?

Cause a distraction by shouting “anti-semitism” in the hope that everyone will stop talking about Israel and the horrors that the Palestinians people have to face on a day-to-day basis.

No one made that point tho.  alpins point was quite clear.

With respect – claiming there are parallels without actually saying what the parallels are is not clear. Hence the point of my post. Some posters seem to have interpreted as the extreme end (which it isn’t) as a way of refuting the point. Others, me included, point out the points where there are clear similarities.

The rest is then both sides refusing to acknowledge that both viewpoints can be true. How very STW

Whilst you’re getting caught up on that @benos (wrongly IMO) Israel is bombing civilians trying to use the “safe route” that Israel told 1.1 million people to flee down.

Your focus is in the wrong place.

I don’t think I can continue to express any support for Israel on this thread. I’ve been called a racist 3 times, received endless hostile “why do you support innocent children being killed” questions and had to watch the weird spectacle of people dance on the head of a pin to explain why it’s cool to bring up the Nazis in what is a very Jewish context

I’ll say it again, my views are very much mainstream moderate western opinion. There is no space for that here.

You haven’t made it acceptable.

Haven’t stated that was my aim (it isn’t). Saying I’ve failed in that is nothing other than you assuming what my motives are.

A few pages back, I merely said I didn’t understand why it was immediately jumped on as anti-semitic.

While I possibly now have a better understanding of your response to the post, that doesn’t mean I have to agree with it.

FWIW, I think that both Hamas and the Israeli government are acting more than a bit shittily, and both are (illegally and immorally) using civilians as weapons in their conflict. I also think that there are more than a few relevant historical parallels we could draw on to learn from, even if the current protagonists in Gaza clearly have no interest in doing so…

Your views are the same as those expressed by the majority of Western governments. They seem fine with the mass killing of innocents as per my previous post re: Grant Shapps. That’s not the same as the opinion of westerners. You’re welcome to your views and for what it’s worth I’ve not called you a racist. You’ve accused me and others of antisemitism though and suggested I’d get on well with Hamas so there is that.

I’ll say it again, my views are very much mainstream moderate western opinion.

Not so sure. I would say I’m a pretty moderate westerner. The views you’ve posted here do not speak to me.

I’ll say it again, my views are very much mainstream moderate western opinion.

Not so sure. I would say I’m a pretty moderate westerner. The views you’ve posted here do not speak to me.

That very much reminded me of this;

Thank goodness, finally some Tory MPs asking for the brakes to be applied and warning of the legal consequences for Sunak and his warmonger cabinet.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/gaza-war-crimes-uk-rishi-sunak-b2429728.html

I’ll say it again, my views are very much mainstream moderate western opinion. There is no space for that here.

I think you are confusing politicians with mainstream moderate opinion.
No one is saying hamas shouldnt be held to account but its the approach taken that people are opposing.
The answer to innocents being killed on one side isnt even more innocents being killed on the other.

Whilst you’re getting caught up on that @benos (wrongly IMO) Israel is bombing civilians trying to use the “safe route” that Israel told 1.1 million people to flee down.

The bombing that upon closer inspection has all the hallmarks of an IED planted under the road, and is therefore way more likely to be a Hamas attempt to draw international condemnation of Israel?

Excellent article, yes it’s the Daily Mail but worth reading.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12629243/raised-curse-israel-pray-destruction-jews-AYAAN-HIRSI-ALI-Hamas-ISIS.html

The bombing that upon closer inspection has all the hallmarks of an IED planted under the road, and is therefore way more likely to be a Hamas attempt to draw international condemnation of Israel?

Please post your professional qualifications and experience to back up that assertion.

@chevychase I’m not trying to make excuses for that. I couldn’t even begin to. It’s horrific and I condemn it without reservation or qualification.

But this is a mountain biking forum and what we do and say here scarcely matters so far as having a focus is concerned. Why are you defending someone making excuses for the horrendous Hamas attack on Saturday using baseless comparisons of Jews fighting the SS?