[Closed] Americans. Are they really all religious ?

IME, no though they're more respectful and likely to say things that over here would suggest that you were.

Put it this way, of the ones I know, few regularly go to church though most would want/had a church wedding and might go on special occassions (eg Easter/Xmas)

something like 70% attend church on a regular basis
- so yes

can't remember source for that statistic so i'm prepared to be proven wrong but compared to the UK it is very different

It is much more common, yes, both in professed belief and actual church going.

The most irritating part is that they seem to take it for granted that everyone's Christian, and are possibly aware that you might be Jewish. Unless you're brown skinned of course.

I seem to remember a lot of very secular-sounding pop music credits thanking God too. I often wondered the same thing.

While you do get more religious types I think the major difference is it's socially acceptable to be openly religious, which isn't really the case here.

can't remember source for that statistic so i'm prepared to be proven wrong but compared to the UK it is very different

a quick google suggests 44% attend every week and my 70% might be a bit high for go to church but not that often maybe over 50% though

Not sure how true it is, but you've reminded me of [url= https://twitter.com/xelaflipped/status/315561914753228802 ]this sound-bite I saw retweeted by Richard Dawkins[/url] the other day;

If every #atheist left the USA, it would lose 93% of the National Academy of Sciences but less than 1% of the prison population. #atheism

[i]"something like 70% attend church on a regular basis"[/i]

Wow, that's a lot.
I suppose "regular" could mean anything from several times a week to once a year at xmas or thanksgiving, but I doubt the UK figure is anywhere near that.

When someone says

Oh my god, it's enormous

to me I assume they are being literal.

more sensibly, compared to the UK they are a very religious nation, although the disparity is as much about the UK not being very religious though.

Even if you allow for exaggeration by people claiming to do what they think they ought to be doing, rather than what they are actually doing, 44% every week is a lot.
I don't think I know anyone personally who goes to church at all, other than a few who might go to special events like midnight mass or a carol concert.

Even if you allow for exaggeration by people claiming to do what they think they ought to be doing, rather than what they are actually doing, 44% every week is a lot.

It's a lot more than in the UK. I think our figure is something like 16% isn't it?

I don't think I know anyone personally who goes to church at all, other than a few who might go to special events like midnight mass or a carol concert.

Sure but that's more likely to reflect your belief system and therefore the people you chose to associate with.

I've spent a lot of time in the US and it really depends on where you go as to how fervent people are with their beliefs. California is pretty secular whereas Texas is pretty 'gun tottin' messianic'.

You've got every extreme of belief with a population of 300m but still, I think the litmus test is could a confirmed atheist ever get elected President?

Sure but that's more likely to reflect your belief system and therefore the people you chose to associate with.

I was trying to count people I work with as well to get a more varied sample.
Thinking about it now, I used to work with a lot of Irish builders and going to mass and having the sacred heart posters on the living room wall was quite a big thing with them.

[img] [/img]

3 of my cousins who are proper happy clappy religious types all moved to the states and married into happy clappy families. Absolutely bonkers, the lot of them.

The going to church is high but as I use to go to church I don't see it as weird

But to me this a shocker

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/06/05/americans-believe-in-creationism_n_1571127.html

46% of Americans believe

"3) God created human beings pretty much in their present form at one time within the last 10,000 years or so."

The figure is rising

32% believe

"1) Human beings have developed over millions of years from less advanced forms of life, but God guided this process,

only 9% believe

"2) Human beings have developed over millions of years from less advanced forms of life, but God had no part in this process,"

given that france has paintings that are 17,000 years old that makes most Americans not just deniers of science but history as well

[img] [/img]

http://www.guardian.co.uk/news/datablog/2012/jul/04/us-fourth-july-twitter-beer-church#

My dad worked in the sates when I was younger (Chicago) with a view to us all moving out as a family.

His boss over there was very 'upset' that my dad was a non-beliver and that he would not go to church with his family on Sundays.

One story that always sticks in my mind is when they were having a conversation and his boss said that his god came first, then his country and then his family.

My dad told him he had his priorities completely wrong and family should come first... We never moved over there!

54% of Americans would vote for an atheist for president, and that represents massive progress!

http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/news/religion/story/2012-07-26/athiest-poll-president/56516466/1

I have just remembered the "where's the first presbyterian church on Gordon Street" bit in Wayne's World 2. 😀

That's an interesting survey from the Huffington Post, even if it is a small sample.
Creationists are always portrayed as the lunatic fringe minority, somewhere on a par with suicide bombers, but it looks like they are more common than that.

I don't think ( apart from a few decades about 100 years ago) the UK has ever been particularly religious. Sure lots of people paid lip service to it, but I don't think as a nation we are or have been "believers"

The US on the other hand is founded on their "creation myth" as pious Christians escaping from religious persecution ( interestingly the ones that founded America were much more Puritan than the folk they left in the UK) they reinforce that belief every year with thanksgiving, arguably a bigger celebration for them than Xmas.

Church attendance is falling though I believe.

is it's socially acceptable to be openly religious,

Or social and political suicide to be perceived as atheist.

Secularism is written into the American constitution and ironically the UK is non secular. Although you would think the opposite,

AFAIK the USA is made up of largely migrant populations from around the globe often people who fled their own countires becuase they were persecuted for their religious beliefs.There is a large proportion of people descended from slaves who had also turned to religion.The more recent migrations of Hispanics also come from countries where religion is still very popular.
So not surprising really.

Creationists are always portrayed as the lunatic fringe minority, somewhere on a par with suicide bombers, but it looks like they are more common than that

The statistic is very high although I would have to look it up. over 50% believe that Jesus will return to earth in the next 50 years.

54% of Americans would vote for an atheist for president, and that represents massive progress!

Thats progress but I am skeptical of the study.

something like 70% attend church on a regular basis

I've known a few Americans, and have been told in the past, that there quite a few go to church, even though they're not at all religious, because it's expected of them within the community.

...as above, I suspect it's more important to be seen as a believer than actually be one. (certainly for those in the public eye)

Part of the reason I asked is that I subscribe to a few facebook groups such as;

https://www.facebook.com/TheEarthStory?fref=ts

Every new story is followed by Americans twisting the facts to support their belief, as if publicly denying the evidence provided by science is an affirmation of faith.
It's not just that there's more of them in the USA, it's that they go out of their way to let everyone know.

I met an American Christian a while back who said that whilst the majority of Americans seem to be Christians and go to church, most aren't really whereas here the church goers are more genuine.

Secularism is written into the American constitution

Which makes that bit about 'one nation under God' particularly tricky.

I think the constitution does not so much advocate secularism as it does that church and state should be separate, which is different.

I've known a few Americans, and have been told in the past, that there quite a few go to church, even though they're not at all religious, because it's expected of them within the community.

[url= http://allendowney.blogspot.co.uk ]Secularisation[/url]

This chap, Allen Downey has done alot of stats work on the secularisation of the US, taking the numbers from the census etc.

He has shown some interesting correlation with the rise of the internet.

Matt

I don't think ( apart from a few decades about 100 years ago) the UK has ever been particularly religious. Sure lots of people paid lip service to it, but I don't think as a nation we are or have been "believers"

You seem to be completely ignoring all of the UK's history up until "a few decades about 100 years ago"!

I think the UK is pretty much aligned with the rest of Europe - the younger population is basically secular, with church going an old people's activity, and slowly dying out.

it's common for people in the UK to say things like "Oh my god, it's enormous"

Years ago I had a girlfriend that lived in Maine. She was a trainee doctor and atheist. Being an atheist was very difficult where she lived. She was forced to move when she didn't have her son circumcised, no shop would serve her, people would cross the street to avoid her. Scary stuff.

Predictably, someone will now claim that circumcision has nothing to do with Christianity. Equally predictably I will reply with this quote from some US Christian spokesperson

"Jews, Muslims, and Christians all trace our spiritual heritage back to Abraham. Biblical circumcision begins with Abraham. No American government should restrict this historic tradition. Essential religious liberties are at stake."

the younger population is basically secular, with church going an old people's activity, and slowly dying out.

Well it will never die out but daresay the number of young Christians is lower than in the past. Some very busy churches in London.

Mogrim don't confuse history with historical record ( what's written down and by whom) for instance the historical record shows that Vikings went from from church to church, pillaging and raping, that's not to say Vikings didn't solely go to those places, it's just that the folk writing down what was happening were religious orders and they were mostly concerned with what happened to churches.

What's left if our history is v religious,I agree that's not to say however that the evidence says that people in this country necessarily were....

Several years ago I worked for an American co. & spent several weeks each year over there. This subject came up more than once - usually because they were interested in why the church had declined in the UK. A few things have stuck in my mind:

In many States, it is seen as 'normal' to attend church on Sunday irrelevant of your beliefs, therefore folk do.

It was more common for them to say "I believe in God" rather than "I'm religious".

Practicing Christians will not use phrases such as "Oh my God" as this is seen as edging toward blasphemy - you are more likely to hear "Oh my gosh" from them.

This was a decade ago so things may well have changed - and this was from experience in New York & Michigan so could well be local viewpoints.

it's common for people in the UK to say things like "Oh my god, it's enormous"

If one looks at the world, you generally find religion and education/knowledge are related. Where education is high, religious belief is low, and vice versa.

In the US we see the same thing, West coast generally less religious than East coast.

This also explains the loss of religion around the world as educational standards and knowledge improve.

Some very busy churches in London.

They aren't really all religious. Quite a few are, of quite a few different flavours. You appear to be basing your views on the vocal few who are on the same common interest websites as you. Your view is biased towards their input. They have an input because they have a special interest.
Many go to church - it doesn;t make them bad people. Many of them are happy to absolve themselves of making big decisions and letting a preacher / pastor lead their thoughts. That is a sad bit, but no, not all religious.

[i]If every #atheist left the USA, it would lose 93% of the National Academy of Sciences but less than 1% of the prison population. #atheism[/i]

The most shocking part of that statement is that 7% of the science academy are religious. How can you be part of an organisation that essentially proves the non-existance of any higher authority and still be religious?

Unless they believe god is testing them.

Overall my experiences of America and Americans suggest they are on the whole, much like us. Church attendance is more popular on Sundays in places but that's a community rather than religious thing. The 'God bless America' thing is just something they say.

Busy by what standard though ?

A busy church - esp see the stuff about church plants:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holy_Trinity_Brompton

I occasionally lurk on some guitar forums and on there, musical god bothering really is the norm for those from the US. Over here, people in bands play in pubs. Over there, people in bands play in church. You also get a lot of the "[i]What delay pedal for praise and worship?...[/i]" nonsense.

The most shocking part of that statement is that 7% of the science academy are religious. How can you be part of an organisation that essentially proves the non-existance of any higher authority and still be religious?

What how does science prove gods non-existence? Seems a rather inflammatory statement to me

Secularism is written into the American constitution

Not exactly. Disestablishment is written into it. It doesn't tell you to be secular, it says they won't tell you what religion to be.

interestingly the ones that founded America were much more Puritan than the folk they left in the UK

Hmm, careful here, perhaps a little more reading on American history? Puritans founded colonies in New England, but even the original 13 colonies contained much more than New England. Many many groups contributed to the early nation, and its development to today.

I think the constitution does not so much advocate secularism as it does that church and state should be separate, which is different.

Yes its what I meant (and understood)however its a busy Friday here in the office!

Disestablishment is written into it. It doesn't tell you to be secular, it says they won't tell you what religion to be.

As above.

How can you be part of an organisation that essentially proves the non-existance of any higher authority and still be religious?

I know what you mean however never underestimate a persons ability to "compartmentalise"

Most scientists aren't researching the origins of the universe, btw.

Nobby - Member

Several years ago I worked for an American co. & spent several weeks each year over there. This subject came up more than once - usually because they were interested in why the church had declined in the UK. A few things have stuck in my mind:

In many States, it is seen as 'normal' to attend church on Sunday irrelevant of your beliefs, therefore folk do.

It was more common for them to say "I believe in God" rather than "I'm religious".

Practicing Christians will not use phrases such as "Oh my God" as this is seen as edging toward blasphemy - you are more likely to hear "Oh my gosh" from them.

This was a decade ago so things may well have changed - and this was from experience in New York & Michigan so could well be local viewpoints.

my experience broadly similar with some other states thrown in - mostly more conservative and if you stayed over a weekend then an invite to attend church with your colleagues was what you got - from expereince of my US colleagues coming to UK then many would have already checked out local church services and would just want to know easiest way to get there (read as "will you come along and bring the kids")

My wife's family are mostly religious, but they don't attend church when they're visiting. My mother in law asked about local Catholic churches, but out of curiosity as much as anything else, and we never ended up going. Partly because I had no idea where the nearest Catholic church was 🙂

You all forgetting your history lessons...

We kicked them out because they were religious - the whole country is built upon that foundation

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pilgrims_(Plymouth_Colony)

By establishing any scientific principle, you're establishing the logical reasoning behind why it happens. It's no longer gods will and unless god is messing with us it's going to be the result of some severely complex atomic, chemical, biological etc. interactions'.

That's just the science though, think about the state of mind of someone who believes that god exists in whatever form, who is investigating something scientific like say.... gravity. That person is delving into the fine detail of god's grand plan. How far do you think they'll take that? How much do you think they'll be influenced by their beliefs? Surely a succesful scientist needs to enter any investigative endevour with an open mind, that's scuppered right from the start because whatever they're working on, they believe was put there by a deity...for a distinct purpose.

They believe it was engineered by design! They're not a scientist they're a mechanic.

How can you be part of an organisation that essentially proves the non-existance of any higher authority and still be religious?

My experience the further west you go the less they subscribe to all that.

Ignoring middle America 🙂 I think it's just the west coast that's relatively progressive

OP, have you formed your views on this based on what you have seen famous people say in the media?

If you have spent much time around the states, and I haven't spent that much really, but in the short time I did spend there I didn't meet one person who was overtly religious at all.

I have Scottish friends who lived out in Colorado for a few years - at both of their jobs (one political, the other techie) it was normal practise for the workforce to gather together for morning prayer every day before work. 😯

They were both asked to lead prayer sessions and had to face very awkward questions when they declined.

My experience the further west you go the less they subscribe to all that.

Not been to Missouri, Kansas or Utah on your travels then? Or were you displaying a level of geographical awareness that is oft levelled at the Americans?

In some ways I suspect that large swathes of Americans who are often poorly educated and raised on a diet of gameshow/evangelism/NRA/PepsiCokeMacdonaldsKFCTV are in some ways as occluded from what is going on in the rest of the world as those poor folk in North Korea.
Didn't a % of Americans think that Barrack Obama was part of Al Qaeida at one point?

I lived in Missouri for a while. Nearest town had a population of around 2,500 and 24+ churches!

I didn't meet one person who was overtly religious at all.

By that do you mean evangelistic? Cos loads of people don't seem religious at all until you have dinner at their house and they say grace. Or they'll tell you a funny story involving their pastor.

Surely a succesful scientist needs to enter any investigative endevour with an open mind, that's scuppered right from the start because whatever they're working on, they believe was put there by a deity...for a distinct purpose

Not at all. We've absolutely no idea why the universe is here. We can never know. Why would their even be a why? No-one can tell you that the big bang wasn't started by a creator. A divine being or even some scientist in a lab in another dimension.

As for your example, the 'why' of gravity - I don't see a problem here either. Yes we know things fall, people are investigating the possible origins of the force, but what caused those origins? You can only work so far back, in science.

Seems entirely compatible to me. These scientists aren't going to be saying 'god did it' when asked why gravity is there. But everyone knows there's no answer to why the big bang happened.

I suspect that some educated Amercians might question why our head of state is also head of the church of England and why unelected clergy sit in the Upper house 🙂
And why so few attend church!

I live in the San Francisco Bay Area, so it's pretty liberal, but even then there is a lot more religion than the UK, but none in school, which I like.

It's odd that a country with specific clauses separating religion from that state ends up with more religious influence than the UK which has a state religion, bishops in the House of Lords and mandatory Christianity in most schools.

I don't discuss religion, politics or healthcare with the natives.

I don't think I know anyone personally who goes to church at all

I have one neighbour, an elderly lady who attends and that's it. I have to confess I'm always quite surprised if I cycle past one and see people outside it! I just assumed no one went any more (bar old ladies)...

That's just the science though, think about the state of mind of someone who believes that god exists in whatever form, who is investigating something scientific like say.... gravity. That person is delving into the fine detail of god's grand plan. How far do you think they'll take that? How much do you think they'll be influenced by their beliefs? Surely a succesful scientist needs to enter any investigative endevour with an open mind, that's scuppered right from the start because whatever they're working on, they believe was put there by a deity...for a distinct purpose.

That's a good reply. Lets not fall out over this. But Gravity was great example as of course Newton really did believe that he was uncovering gods clock work. But Newton didn't believe in mysticism, he didn't believe that good could break his own rules.

Newton described gravity he made no effort to explain it.

I suppose I'm a bit hung up on it as I spend most of my life teaching science to religious people. So I have had to rationalise the god and science together thing despite being pretty unconvinced by the God argument. I don't see evolution as contradicting God. If I was a supreme being would bother designing a 1,000,000 beetles. No way I'd just let my universe run with a really cool system where you end up with things taking care of themselves and you end up with a 1,000,000 different beetles all perfectly suited for their own habitat.

I suppose you can't be a scientist who believes that your prayer will mean that it will rain so much in the Sahara that you can grow crops. On the other hand praying for a good summer this year would seem to leave god room within the laws of physics to oblige. I don't have much contact with prayer but in general I understand that prayer asks for one of the possible outcomes, not an impossible outcome or a miracle. At least in the milder branches of religion I grew up with

Molgrips

I agree with loads of that

it's common for people in the UK to say things like "Oh my god, it's enormous"

I think I'm more likely to hear "keep that thing away from me."

My experience the further west you go the less they subscribe to all that.
Ignoring middle America I think it's just the west coast that's relatively progressive

OP, have you formed your views on this based on what you have seen famous people say in the media?

Mogrim don't confuse history with historical record ( what's written down and by whom) for instance the historical record shows that Vikings went from from church to church, pillaging and raping, that's not to say Vikings didn't solely go to those places, it's just that the folk writing down what was happening were religious orders and they were mostly concerned with what happened to churches.

What's left if our history is v religious,I agree that's not to say however that the evidence says that people in this country necessarily were..

Weird view of history you have there, which seems to go against everything I've read - all evidence suggests that people from >200 years ago were [b]very[/b] religious, indeed by 21stC standards they would be considered fundamentalist.

And it must be said the year I spent in Idaho completely backs up the image of a massively religious population, in this case LDS.

In ferreted to hear where you read that, mogrim. A lot of people 200 years ago acted religious, cos it was the done thing. Also remember the people making and recording history were a very small subset of people.

I used to do medieval reenactment, one of the things i found when i researched the period was that people really were very devout. You can put that down to a lack of secular knowledge, a dominant church etc but the reality was that the population lived in close harmony with the church.

I'm quite interested in the science versus religion thing to be honest.

We have one friend who used to work in genetic research who then became a vicar. When we've talked I suggested that the two are mutually incompatible so what was it that in effect, changed his mind. He was earning big money as a scientist and then became a pretty poor vicar. It must have been something fairly major to shift his mind set.

His answers unfortunately carried little weight with me and we discussed it at length but ultimately he believed that evolution is something god put in place to help us survive. He still believed that humans were the superior species and that there was a plan for us all.

I'm not precious in any way about it. People can believe what they want but I like considering the conflicting aspects of science and religion.

I've been led to believe that all US citizens are holy.. 😕

The main thing to consider with things like faith and church attendance here or in the US is the difference between what people say and what they mean.

Church attendance has declined quite steeply in the UK, although it used to be the social norm here. It took a long time for people who don't attend church to stop describing themselves as 'Christian' in a census though.

In the us its very much the social norm to attend church, its part of the fabric of the community and its something that is broadly expect of people. A lot of people who attend church do so out of social duty politeness rather than because of deeply held faith. And going to church can be an entertaining and thoughtful and socially enjoyable experience regardless of beliefs.

But because its socially polite to attend church, out of politeness many people fake it such as.........

54% of Americans would vote for an atheist for president, and that represents massive progress!

Americans have already voted for an atheist president, he just politely fakes it. A scandal arose during Obama's presidential campaign as it turned out the pastor, Jeremiah White, at the church he attended gave angry, seeming anti-american sermons. This gave Obama's opposition the perfect "When did you stop beating your wife?" question. Faced with questions about questions about his relationship with White and his sermon they were pressing him to admit that he does what lots of americans do: To say they attend a church with a very large congregation, so that nobody notices if you're not actually there.

When a lot of people in the US attend church, or [i]say[/i] they attend church its because they don't want to offend the person who's asking, or get into a long conversation about why they don't go to church.