http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/south_yorkshire/8472265.stm

I'd say I'm stunned, but not sure that's quite the right word either…

TBH I find that whole story deeply disturbing.

It's just so sad…… 🙁

Nothing to discuss really, is there.

Beyond grim.

I've just been reading this in the paper. The thing that strikes me is where and how to kids of that age get the knowledge, inclination and nastyness to do such a thing?

It's astonishing really, a terrible thing.

Nothing to discuss really, is there.

I was going to write a long post, then deleted it. Sort of didn't have anything to say after all after reading that…

PeterPoddy – Member
I've just been reading this in the paper. The thing that strikes me is where and how to kids of that age get the knowledge, inclination and nastyness to do such a thing?

It's astonishing really, a terrible thing.

from their parents…..sadly

poor kids ;-( and i bet the lads who did it get next to nowt as punishment and shipped off to a sunny country with new id's in a few years ;-( and the poor kids will be scarred for life

It's almost beyond belief that children can do this to each other.

I wonder if their parents could be charged with something it seems they deserve some measure of blame.

and i bet the lads who did it get next to nowt as punishment and shipped off to a sunny country

ah, perhaps brutalising them will improve their behaviour ?

they should be **** hung so dont even start do gooding

Is anybody up for arguing that not having children is a bad idea now if this is what htey have the potential to turn into?

The lads that did it are children too, f888ked up children but still children.

It's a hardline you're taking there.

bad parents make bad kids.

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1020530/ – Movies like this don't help 🙁

Sad story, for ALL concerned.

phew. hard reading.

it's hard to figure out, as someone for which that stuff just doesn't compute. to do that kind of stuff those kids must have come from a very bad place.

I can only imagine how I'd feel/what i'd do if that happened to my kids (if I had any)

Wish I hadn't read that. Horrendous.

they should be **** hung so dont even start do gooding

Don't be so quick to judge – where do you reckon they learned to behave like that?

Is anybody up for arguing that not having children is a bad idea now if this is what htey have the potential to turn into?

so 2 bad children = all children bad ?

they should be **** hung so dont even start do gooding

I noticed with the Bolger case a kind of righteous fury that children below the age of criminal responsibility were somehow more culpable than adults who do the same things and so deserved harsher treatment. I think it's based on a kind of unrealistic ideal of childhood innocence.

Truly shocking.

Is anybody up for arguing that not having children is a bad idea now if this is what htey have the potential to turn into?

What if my eldest is the person who cures cancer?

Execute them and their parents. The parents are as much to blame as the scum kids.

Its just sickening reading that.

i think the parents of the children that did it need a **** good hiding as it is them who has brought them up to behave like that.

those poor kids are going to be affected by this for life now whilst the other two **** will probably do something like it again .

no simon if adults did it they should be hung too

if you do something like that "as there was nowt else to do" (their words) then you dont deserve another breath

I have to agree with ton here – kids arent born monsters, they learn from their families, peers and environment. And before anyone jumps down my throat about do-gooding, don't bother, because I work with people who's lives are f***ed up because of sh*t like this, and I know only too well there are no fast answers. If they were, as reported, 'known troublemakers' then someone needs to put their hands up to this, preferably starting with the parents. It's sad, unbelievably sad, and it makes me so f***ing angry as well. You'd have thought that after the Bulger case we might have learnt something…

I believe they were in foster care at the time but I don't know the details
Social services may well have had issues with the parenting already

I think it's based on a kind of unrealistic ideal of childhood innocence.

I agree.

Really tragic, although, TBH, I'm not that surprised. I think children are quite capable of overriding whatever it is that's stops a lot of adults from similar behaviour. Children are exactly that – immature, unable to fully control their emotions and often unable to see through the full course of their actions. Once they start bouncing ideas off a likeminded associate (particularly if both have psychopathic tendencies) it doesn't take much for their behaviour to get out of control. Think of some of the worse cases of bulling you have seen…

Seems like these two had been in foster care according to this article. http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/south_yorkshire/8470299.stm

Doubt their unstable background helped much. Not that it's an excuse mind.

+1 for barnsleymitch

If they were, as reported, 'known troublemakers' then someone needs to put their hands up to this, preferably starting with the parents. It's sad, unbelievably sad, and it makes me so f***ing angry as well. You'd have thought that after the Bulger case we might have learnt something…

So we should have 24hr supervision? lock them up?

I don't think it's quite that simple.

Lord of the Flies, anyone?

Lord of the Flies, anyone?

That's what I was thinking. I'm not convinced kids are turned into monsters. They start off as monsters and have to be be taught otherwise.

It casts a shadow over our society when such appalling crimes can be committed by young people.

There is a section of our society where standards, responsibility, self discipline, care for others is either lost or blurred.

Children are shaped by how they are brought up by their parents, nurtured and taught to lead an active and responsible place in society.

When that does not happen why are we surprised when sink estates become ghettos and places of fear.

While we all ruminate on the hows and the whys four young people now have shattered lives.

Professional people such as care workers, police and social services have once again failed.

As for the parents, if you can't raise your kids then should you be allowed to keep them.

"So we should have 24hr supervision? lock them up?

I don't think it's quite that simple."

Read the rest of my post – you'll see that I believe there are no fast answers. Perhaps a reasonable starting point is for someone (hopefully the parents) to take some responsibility. And what's wrong with some level of supervision? I want to know where my kids are 24/7, and if the two lads involved were already known to the Police / Social services, etc, why didnt this happen?

It's not really surprising that kids do this sort of thing, they're generally exposed to the same sorts of violent images that adults are these days, if not more so, and they're also not fully aware of or don't think about the true depth of their actions, a bit like a drunk adult.

That's why kids should be more protected from such violent imagery etc – everyone knows how to kick and punch, but to take it that stage further requires thought and knowledge that has to have been gathered from elsewhere IMO. While the argument that computer games and films don't make a killer, they do sew the understanding and thought processes required to attempt it, even if it's just done out of immitation.

You'd have thought that after the Bulger case we might have learnt something…

I had hoped we would stop criminalising what are clearly badly damaged children. Very few other countries in the world do this – why – because it does not good.

Worth noting in my opinion that this isn't a new phenomenon (therefore not due to video nasties?). The wikipedia entry on Child murder, highlights that child on child murder/violence is relatively common and lists Mary Bell as an example (1968) as well as the image from 1748 Newgate Calendar.

TJ – I'm not saying we should criminalise children, merely reflecting my thoughts that as a society we should be doing something more, and not in a punitive way.

Professional people such as care workers, police and social services have once again failed.

You've never going to have a perfect system where this never happens though are you.

The case is absolutely sickening.

However, the kids, and they are still kids, can't have been like that to start. I think upbringing, or lack of, has a lot to do with it. Sadly this won't make it any easier for the victims.

+1 TJ – this reminded me of a comparison to the Bulger case with a similar incident in Norway.

woody2000:
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1020530/ – Movies like this don't help

🙄 *

*I did write a lengthy rebuttal to the above but decided the eye rolling emoticon was much more succinct.

barnsleymitch – Member

TJ – I'm not saying we should criminalise children, merely reflecting my thoughts that as a society we should be doing something more, and not in a punitive way.

Agreed mitch. I didn't think you were