I wish, as I would hope many others on here do, that there was an answer to this – punishing the mother isnt going to change anything, what's done is done, and it sounds as if her life is punishment enough anyway. Apart from the two boys involved in the attack, she has another five kids, and we can only hope that someones making sure they're ok. I would imagine that social services will carry much of the blame for this, but when the media vilifies them for everything they do, what chance do they have?.
Sadly, most peoples attention seems to be focussed on how the boys that carried out this awful f***ing attack should be punished, and the two poor little buggers that were subjected to it get overlooked, and ultimately end up reliant on social and health services for the rest of their lives. It sometimes feels like our society is headed straight down the sh***er, or am I being just a bit too 'Daily mail'?

There is only one thing for it! Put something in the water and stop these B*&%£*ds from breeding and passing on their sh!tty DNA.

Oh is social engineering not PC these days?

barnsleymitch – Member

………………. It sometimes feels like our society is headed straight down the sh***er, or am I being just a bit too 'Daily mail'?

Paying too much attention to negative stories in the press. Murder rates are at a 20 yr low. all crime is much reduced from 10 yrs ago. children are safer now than they ever have been. Imagine a childs life in Victorian times if you were average working class compared to now.

Seriously – life is good. Engendering fear of crime is a deliberate aim of the right wing press – they are creating a moral panic out of nothing

I'm glad that no-one did that before I adopted my kids, inbred. It's not about genetics, it's about bringing kids up in a safe, nurturing environment. As I said earlier, kids arent born monsters – they only learn from their environment.

"Seriously – life is good. Engendering fear of crime is a deliberate aim of the right wing press – they are creating a moral panic out of nothing"

I'm just tired TJ, and probably ready to get out of forensics – when it's all you see on a day to day basis, the positives seem hard to come by.

Put something in the water and stop these B*&%£*ds from breeding and passing on their sh!tty DNA.

if it were their DNA then they'd not be responsible at all…
However, most of us, good and bad, drink water!

As I said earlier, kids arent born monsters – they only learn from their environment.

isn't that simplistic ? I think homo sapiens is basically a very aggressive creature – with the wit to wreak terible mayhem – though we also have a strong tendency to imitate and cooperate. Most of us learn to control and channel these traits to harmless or useful ends

Just try to remember that crime is at a historically low level at the moment and crimes such as this are vary rare indeed.

Oh I know the statistics TJ, just struggling to stay positive at the moment – this happened a few miles down the road from where I live, so I suppose it feels a bit more personal, if that makes sense.

Ok – try this one then – IIRC you are the sort of person that has some of the responsibility for the current low crime levels – so even tho all you see is the shite – you stop that shite flowing over the rest of us. ta.

Cheers TJ, and I'll try not to moan about 'more f***ing paperwork' when I do my next HCR20!

IIRC you are the sort of person that has some of the responsibility for the current low crime levels

good try, though I wonder if there's any evidence of a connection between policing acvtivity and crime? There might be no correlation, or it might be negative where more active policing exposes more crimes to view ?

Simon – hasnt the nature versus nurture debate been done to death? I'm stressed, feeling a bit flat, and am frankly too knackered to discuss this on much more than a visceral level. Sorry, but accepting that kids are born wicked and need training not to be is a bit beyond me right now.
It's not a cop out, seriously, but me and the wife went through a lot of s**t whilst adopting our kids, none of which I'm prepared to discuss on here, and this case kind of opens up a lot of old wounds for me.

Simon – so you don't think that the actions of those charged with reducing crime – police / social workers / probation officers / psychiatric nurses etc make any difference?

hasnt the nature versus nurture debate been done to death?

I believe there's still plenty of scope for controversy. I read a fascinating book called The Nurture Assumption which makes a good case for most received ideas on parenting being entirely unfounded.

Simon – so you don't think that the actions of those charged with reducing crime – police / social workers / probation officers / psychiatric nurses etc make any difference?

I was only thinking about the police, and their largely reactive stance. It could be that their existence is enough, that and people grassing each other up. I was just suggesting that the things they do to attempt to forestall crime might not be effective.

SFB – get real FFS.

Well who am I to criticise which ever esteemed academic wrote that Simon? as I've tried saying, I'm too tired, and yes I'll admit it, subjective right now, to enter into a debate. If winning an argument means that much to you, knock yourself out.

SFB – get real FFS.

so you know the answer ? No investigation required ? We often think we know things whe we've just made them up…

I think you will find there has been much investigation of both things and your ideas are just complete twaddle. do you have any idea how the police and criminal justice system works? For example police are not just reactive but are very proactive.

For example police are not just reactive but are very proactive.

or at least that's what they tell you ? And investigated by whom – and without vested interest ?

Whenever people use nice round figures like 10 or 20 I'm suspicious.

Crickey I think suggested the only thing I could really agree with. An underclass with no hope in hell has been created and perpetuated by deliberate lack of investment in practical educational pathways and deliberate policies to make work not pay and any educational pathway out of subsistence toil unaffordable for the majority, especially those out of their teens and realising their options. So why be surprised when the peasants turn nihilistic?

Since the people administering the country are all so well educated themselves,(and I hope the challengers to that postition have at least a 2:1 from a GOOD UNIVERSITY) I can only assume this was deliberate. I'm sure someone will be along to explain how it's "flexibility" or something to do with how the world works in Anglo Saxon Capitalist economys and not elsewhere.

Vile actions by the two boys for sure, but who hasn't done something incredibly stupid and potentially dangerous at that age? I did plenty. God knows what I may have thought normal if my father had provided access to vodka, weed, and adult pornography as well as regular lessons in how to beat the shit out of my mother and brothers at that age.

I'm no expert, but I think they need some serious **** psychological help rather than stringing up. What if it was you with that upbringing? Are you sure you would have turned out any better?

SFB – go away and actually learn something about what you prattle on about. On this one you are showing your ignorance and stupidity.

Occasionally you have a point to your argument – on this you have no point and no idea of what is happening.

I have worked alongside the police a bit and have some small idea of what happens. Do you? As for investigation of criminality – lots of good academic stuff over the years.

Sodafarls – eaay rounding up but on the murder rates thats was what was quoted after last years stats came out.

The family are from a roughish estate maybe a mile and a half from my house. Doncaster Social Services are utterly failed, and the recent management influx hasn't started making a difference yet. For maybe ten years, there has been a succession of unqualified or isolated and unsupported senior managers. The result on the ground has been absolute chaos. Rare to see the same face more than a couple of meetings in a row to a case conference, new bodies never up to speed, and always an overoptimistic and half arsed response when you get one, which can be difficult. At our school we have a senior manager spending 2/3 or more of their time on child protection work, trying hard to make sure that none of our children fall through the net. In the rougher areas, neglect, violence and sexual abuse aren't hard to find. Possibly as big a problem is lack of aspiration, and dependency on the state, drugs, alcohol and Jeremy Kyle culture is a norm. For the good guys trying hard every day to the good things for our children it is really grinding. In our primary school we are running at around 15% of the children subject of a child protection plan. Sure, lots of families need lots of intervention now, and at the school we are working our balls off to make sure they get it, but unless the underclass are reengaged with the rest of society, we aren't going to get very far.

SFB – go away and actually learn something about what you prattle on about. On this one you are showing your ignorance and stupidity.

ignorance of course, I'm not a criminal, and I don't appear to have anything worth nicking (judging by how often I forget to lock my front door). Stupidity I dispute – I was just advancing a theory based on intuition

Indeterminate sentence then.

I for one will be glad to see the back of this case, as I really don't want to have to hear anything more about what happened. Hideous.

i'll be glad to see the back of it too

sadly incarceration will likely do little for these two, they were let down a long time ago by their parents and the state.

Lets hope they are put in a decent caring institution that genuinely attempts to cure them as opposed to continuing their criminal indoctrination. Such places do exist, they just don't make good news stories.

Did anyone else hear on Today on R4 this morning how Mr Camron's next brilliant move will be to use this horrifying case to demonstrate how labour have failed on justice over the last 13 years, and how it would be so much better under tory government?

Is he so desperate he has to turn even this into party politics?

Hmmm. Captain, as I said we have an underclass of people who we ignore and pretend don't exist…

Bring back Stocks! Let the community show their disgust at the behaviour, and after a few days of that, put them in a dark cell, and let them rot!

We don't need people like that, at all.

Bring back Stocks! Let the community show their disgust at the behaviour, and after a few days of that, put them in a dark cell, and let them rot!

We don't need people like that, at all.

The question is not whether we need them or not. Perhaps this should happen to the parents, but even I struggle to see how 100% of the blame can be apportioned to the two children convicted

It has to lie with the parents.

Too many see kids as a way of getting money from the state (yes I know not all)

All I seam to hear from people I hear and come into contact with is "its my right to have kids" and see no separation from that and having responsibility for your kids in bringing them up well.

We have lost our way as a society whether we like it or not and the dreadful events like this will occur again and again.

So because they are children its the parents fault?
So what about adults who do the same? blame their parents to?

I fail to see the difference.

10/11 is old enough to take responsibility for their own actions.
A smack on the wrists and saying "kids will be kids" for things like this and anti-social behavior will not accomplish anything.

Look back through the years and you'll notice an increase in anti-social behavior and a decrease of ability to do anything about it.

When I was a kid and did something wrong I got a good ole smack, and I turned out fine (mostly). I'm sure the most of you also were brought up with 'spare the rod, spoil the child', Which worked.

We're just all getting soft, in case it might hurt someones feelings.

These kids are a good example of what can happen when kids don't have boundaries, I'm bored so lets beat the cr*p out of those two kids there…

It's not just the parents fault, you find it everywhere.

That's my 10p anyway.

Look back through the years and you'll notice an increase in anti-social behavior and a decrease of ability to do anything about it.

Quite simply utter rubbish.

What happens now is you hear more about it not that it happens more.

When I was a kid and did something wrong I got a good ole smack, and I turned out fine

which means you ignored the lesson that bad behaviour can be cured by violence

It has to lie with the parents.

so what? Nothing you do to the parents will fix the kids, so it's mere tokenism.

Zokes, you are entering the whole nuture vs nature debate….

I am not saying humans are dogs, or foxes, but did you see the Horizon about dogs? There was a Russian experiment ( still going) where they bread foxes, and deliberately bred tame and overtly ferral animals. After 7 generations, the tame genetics and the ferral genetics were obvious. They then put ferral pups with tame mums and visa versa. No change in their initial traits, so it proves to a certain extent that behaviour patterns are genetic!

They are mammals, so make up your own mind.

Our society is tiered as much as it ever was, and we are essentially (not exclusive to the UK) creating a rod for our own backs. I don't have any answers, and I wouldn't want to be the judge making the ruling on this case.

Saying all that, my previous judgement stands. If they had done this to my child, I'd be after re-instating the death penalty.

Quite simply utter rubbish.

What happens now is you hear more about it not that it happens more.

I disagee, 10years ago I'd quite happily walk through a council estate with no issues. Now its a completely different matter.

20years ago I could of played as a child in the front garden without worry, no I would not let a kid play in a front garden on a council estate for fear of things being thrown or the insults that would also be thrown etc.

I could go further back but Im not sure if its worth the argument.

A smack on the wrists and saying "kids will be kids" for things like this and anti-social behavior will not accomplish anything.

Would you like to illustrate just how much more reformed they'd be after spending a good few years being 'educated' by real criminals?

simonb256 I agree totally.

Today no one takes responsibility and there are always "factors", to me bad parenting that costs society should be landed back at parents.

We have no go areas in our country based on a thuggish minority.

Less arms around them and more them taking responsibility.

Right i'm off for a ride now, rant over