Abandon the North?

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  • Abandon the North?
  • Premier Icon Drac
    Subscriber

    “But these kindly efforts are misguided, Governments should not try to rescue failing towns. Instead they should support the people who live in them.
    “That means helping them to commute or move to places where there are jobs – and giving them the skills to get those jobs.”

    Makes sense to me.

    lemonysam
    Member

    The original is here:
    http://www.economist.com/news/leaders/21587790-city-sicker

    It’s a bizarre ramble of an article which encompasses scaling back arts and capital projects, improving regional transport links, binning HS2 & removing greenbelt restrictions. Pure linkbait. Which I’ve just fallen for.

    Junkyard
    Member

    Well i see a problem

    Instead they should support the people who live in them.
    “That means helping them to commute or move to places where there are jobs – and giving them the skills to get those jobs.”…..

    Despite these successes, experts claim the north-south divide is growing with house prices in southern England now more than £100,000 more expensive than those in the north.

    so they will give them the skills to be able to afford to buy a house down south with their new job…mmm seems likely

    On the broader point where a staple industry has declined and none can be brought there to replace it – welsh valleys for coal for example it may make some sense to do but it would be very difficult to implement to put it mildly.
    It is all very get on your bike tebbit stuff and people live in areas for reasons other than work – family for example- so it is unlikely to encourage lots to move to an area they cannot afford to live.

    Their size, location and demographics means theat[sic] they will never offer the sorts of restaurants or shops that the middle classes like.”

    I doubt people move to an area for the restaurants tbh – a bit of a silly notion that one and the deprive population will be working class anyway.

    Premier Icon jambalaya
    Subscriber

    This is one area where you have to congratulate economic migrants who are prepared to travel to foreign countries and often live in cramped basic accommodation to get work and earn some extra money. Investing in arts etc makes places more pleasant to live but if there isn’t work what’s the point ? I personally think the majority of Government and Civil service should be moved out of London and to these sorts of areas. Parliament is always going to sit in London but there’s precious little need for the bulk of the civil service to do so.

    Premier Icon ratherbeintobago
    Subscriber

    I personally think the majority of Government and Civil service should be moved out of London and to these sorts of areas.

    +1. People arguing that northern towns should be ‘abandoned’ forget that there’s neither the space nor the resources (water etc) in the SE.

    Even without HS2 it takes what? A bit over two hours to get from Manchester/Leeds to London? There is absolutely no good reason why public sector departments need to be in London given that.

    Burnley back in the news,great stuff – soon the tourists will start flooding back.
    Not sure about a failing city,it’s a small town at best although granted it is on it’s arse – with the exception of Wetherspoons natch

    Burnley back in the news,great stuff – soon the tourists will start flooding back.
    Not sure about a failing city,it’s a small town at best although granted it is on it’s arse – with the exception of Wetherspoons natch

    We’re in a far better state than some of the the other towns in the area. It would also appear that some people have very short memories – Burnley was declared “Most Enterprising Town 2013” about 6 weeks ago.

    big_n_daft
    Member

    http://www.businesszone.co.uk/topic/business-trends/burnley-named-britains-most-enterprising-place/53613

    A bit over two hours to get from Manchester/Leeds to London? There is absolutely no good reason why public sector departments need to be in London given that.

    the school run for Tristan and Phoebe would be a bit long though

    I didn’t even know about that enterprise award until I read about it in that article I stopped buying the Burnley Express years ago,far too depressing.I’ve lived here 43 years and nothing winds me up more than having to go into town on a week day during working hours and seeing the number of piss heads in the pubs or walking round with cans of super strength cider.
    I’ve worked in areas of the town that used to be nice and are nothing more than slums now full of smack heads but there are a lot of nice areas and you only have to travel 5 minutes outside town for some fantastic riding in great countryside
    Swings n roundabouts I suppose like most places

    MrSmith
    Member

    think the majority of Government and Civil service should be moved out of London and to these sorts of areas.

    They already have, that’s why all the tax/vat/pension/HMRC etc are all in deprived shiteholes. Placed there deliberately to appease regional authorities.

    “Because our organisations deal with so many different aspects of government, civil servants work in an enormous variety of roles. We employ 453,000 civil servants, almost three-quarters of whom work outside London and the south-east.”
    Source: civil crevice website

    Junkyard
    Member

    yes but things like DwP and job Centres are civil service so much of what the civil service do could not be delivered anywhere other than locally.
    if you remove this % what percentage “premium” does that there London/SE still have? still have?
    I dont know tbh but I would be interested to read

    I didn’t even know about that enterprise award until I read about it in that article I stopped buying the Burnley Express years ago,far too depressing.I’ve lived here 43 years and nothing winds me up more than having to go into town on a week day during working hours and seeing the number of piss heads in the pubs or walking round with cans of super strength cider.
    I’ve worked in areas of the town that used to be nice and are nothing more than slums now full of smack heads but there are a lot of nice areas and you only have to travel 5 minutes outside town for some fantastic riding in great countryside.

    If you think Burnley’s bad, take a trip to Accrington, Blackburn, Rochdale or Oldham. Burnley’s like Biarritz by comparison.

    Premier Icon ratherbeintobago
    Subscriber

    If you think Burnley’s bad, take a trip to Accrington, Blackburn, Rochdale or Oldham. Burnley’s like Biarritz by comparison

    I’d have to dispute that. Rochdale is a pit (its telling when even Maccy D’s has moved out if the town centre) but it’s still nicer than Burnley. And the train to Manchester takes 20min..

    Warrington. Now, there’s a hole.

    TheBrick
    Member

    I don’t think its really a just a north thing, that’s just a good head line and overly simplistic. It an areas that have little economic activity and are very unlike to gain any. Its just that typically there are more of these places in the north but area of South Wales and even some parts of Kent are like this, Margate used to be terrible, not sure what its like now.

    It is not about about Manchester, Leeds, Newcastle e.t.c. which seem to be doing pretty well (from my travels) and defiantly the potential to grow as economic hubs. It more about places like Blackpool. Its not going to become a holiday destination again with a big enough economy to be able to support the local population in non min waged jobs, no big business is going to set up. For manufacturing its covenant for F all, high-tech companies will not set up there as there is no pool of highly skilled work force.

    It is not necessarily about people moving down south but people have to except that if the jobs go in your area you have to move. That may be a move to Manchester area or it may be a move down south, or to Scotland. Its not easy in areas where there has been poor employment for a long period e.g. my example of Blackpool. it has to be done otherwise its just people growing up with no hope.

    TheBrick
    Member

    think the majority of Government and Civil service should be moved out of London and to these sorts of areas.

    This can be done to a certain extent but you will always need a considerable amount around the seat of power to be at the for front of things. U.k. is overly centralised but we are a small county and the international importance of London will always dominate more region cities.

    TheBrick
    Member

    Even without HS2 it takes what? A bit over two hours to get from Manchester/Leeds to London? There is absolutely no good reason why public sector departments need to be in London given that.

    Its not really Leeds and Manchester that are failing though. Its Hull, Blackpool e.t.c.

    Premier Icon garage-dweller
    Subscriber

    I are confused.

    In a period of relatively high unemployment where are these people going to move to/commute to that has a shortage of labour. The south its doing relatively ok but I am not aware that there are masses of jobs that cannot be filled.

    Moving jobs/existing operations up there doesn’t create new jobs it just moves the workers/ problem from one place to another (and maybe saves some non staff costs)

    Creating real sustainable jobs in that area that are not reliant on taking productive work from other locations or government long term subsidy is surely better.

    So the question is what can we produce our do in the UK that we can ideally export and sell domestically at a competitive price or exceptional quality and premium priced.

    If someone can answer that then we have a starting point.

    warton
    Member

    Didn’t one of Thatchers advisors suggest doing the same to Liverpool in 1980?

    Premier Icon stumpyjon
    Subscriber

    Whilst there is a small proportion of people in places like Burnley, who’ve been left behind there’s plenty of people who are economically active and a fair amount of employment including manufacturing. There’s also a fair amount of employment in the surrounding area. What they’re really talking about is abandoning the minority who are becoming more and more marginalised. Whilst as a society we can’t afford for both moral and practical reasons to abondon these people I would agree much of the money currently spent to support them isn’t yielding many positive results.

    Premier Icon Riksbar
    Subscriber

    Parliament is always going to sit in London but there’s precious little need for the bulk of the civil service to do so.

    Why does parliament need to be in London? It’s basically a big meeting/conference, with some admin support. Cabinet is the same especially with modern communication links. Put parliament in the most deprived ward in the country for 5 years, all the lobbyists would move or stop lobbying, each is a result for some of us. Having to live there when the house is sitting is going to incentivise them to do something about the deprivation. I suggest we also use the local unemployed on compulsory work to do admin support for parliament.

    Premier Icon jamj1974
    Subscriber

    Centralisation to reduce costs for corporates and civil institutions was always a flawed idea…

    Jambalaya partly has it with this:

    I personally think the majority of Government and Civil service should be moved out of London and to these sorts of areas.

    Also, businesses should be encouraged to be less SE-centric. I would be inclined to tax rather than positively incentivise.

    MrNutt
    Member

    just build a wall along the M4, cut London in half and continue it along to Foulness Island. Israel have a nice modular construction method with auto turret upgrades and everything.

    MrSmith
    Member

    Also, businesses should be encouraged to be less SE-centric.

    Why should they?
    If anything they already are with regional development zones and tax breaks on buildings. I have a client based in one of the most deprived towns in the country who was basically given an industrial building on an ‘enterprise park’ by the welsh assembly as having 100 local men employed was better than having an empty building. The town is still a grim place though.
    But if a business wants to locate in the S.E. that’s up to them and it’s obvious why a lot of businesses choose to be there.

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