I wish I had the opportunity at work to allow me to have the school holidays off I haven’t hit summer holidays rostered leave for over ten years. But in 2019 I can have two weeks off in summer holidays 🙂 unless I get moved stations again due to cut backs doh…

And the childcare in the holidays costs more than a bloody holiday would 🙁

I’m married to a teacher and the amount we save on child care during summer far outweighs the extra cost for holidays!

Yes, but I don’t have kids so get the worst of both worlds!

Excellent result the law has it right and I pretty much agree with Stoner’s points on this thread.

*taps sarcastometer. unexpectedly showing no signs, or it’s bust*

Our school and a lot of other local ones are trying to work something out, one school booked all it’s 5 inset day to run 5 in a row in June which gave parents a chance to grab a cheap holiday, ours extended the Summer Hols by 2 days to make them the full 7 weeks, the last week being not quite the full bum rape summer hols rates and Easter is two weeks after the long bank holiday rather than the week before and after.

That’s grand, until you’ve got kids at two different schools and you end up where they’ve shifted the easter holidays so much that they’re actually not off at the same time…

My OH is an overworked underpaid teacher too, and I’d imagine what most teacher’s are concerned about is that the schools (which are now mostly acadamies, and desperate to meet ofstead targets to get funding) will insist teachers do lots of extra planning for each and every child that’s going to be taken out of class.

My OH is an overworked underpaid teacher too, and I’d imagine what most teacher’s are concerned about is that the schools (which are now mostly acadamies, and desperate to meet ofstead targets to get funding) will insist teachers do lots of extra planning for each and every child that’s going to be taken out of class.

Teachers – always me, me, me! 😉

My OH is an overworked underpaid teacher too

Well I guess she can take a holiday during term time now, given that everyone is agreed that kids missing a week or two of education is no big deal, right?

Private schools effectively ban term time holidays and it seems virtually no-one tries to take them.
I’m not quite sure what conclusions to draw from this but it’s not ‘parents with kids at private school can afford the higher holiday cost’. I suspect it maybe something to do with placing a higher value on education.
I can’t help but feel that it’s the teachers that will be the losers from this and this will filter down.

Junkyard – lazarus

Blah, blah, blah…

Thatcher would be proud of the way you ignore society and think only of yourself where yourself means your wallet,

And if the evil old bitch hadn’t decimated Britain’s manufacturing base, perhaps all us hard-grafting manual workers would still be able to afford holidays out of term time.

That is just laughable

Holidays can be really educative, Junkyard and I find it surprising that you find the idea laughable.

On holidays with junior, cycling as it happens, we’ve visited WW1 battlefields, the bridge too far, the dam buster dams, the iron curtain, check point Charlie, the Rhur valley, various bombed out and rebuilt towns around Europe, a U-Boat, numerous museums and galeries, the Normandy landing beaches, a concentration camp (from the outside, kids aren’t allowed in), Aix la Chapelle (Charlemagne), le Mur de L’Atlantique, Bosworth Field, London, a Napoleonic battlefield, Pilgrim routes and lots of religious sites, a viking village, medieval towns and castles, pre-historic sites… .

This year he is taking both a French Bac and German Arbiture specializing in history – can you see the link? I really think he learned a lot on holidays and more importantly was inspired to learn more.

I suspect it maybe something to do with placing a higher value on education.

Tosh.

What’s with the idea that education can only be had in school?

But you have to also legislate for the “unreasonable parents” who will take them for 2 weeks at a more critical time or will will take the proverbial.

The original concept was ‘at the headteacher’s discretion’. So an assessment was made for each pupil as to whether or not it would be detrimental. Seems the best way to handle it, to me.

Private schools effectively ban term time holidays and it seems virtually no-one tries to take them.

If you we’re paying tens of thousands per year for private schooling you aren’t going to take them out!

Private schools holidays are longer too, so they are on holiday when state schools aren’t.

The original concept was ‘at the headteacher’s discretion’. So an assessment was made for each pupil as to whether or not it would be detrimental. Seems the best way to handle it, to me.

Yes, and I would add ” or benficial” after “detrimental”.

The original concept was ‘at the headteacher’s discretion’. So an assessment was made for each pupil as to whether or not it would be detrimental. Seems the best way to handle it, to me.

^ This – no-one is advocating a free-for-all approach, just a return to the previous system of discretion.

Yes, and I would add ” or benficial” after “detrimental”.

That’s too subjective though – children from less well off background could get just as much benefit to their mental health from a week at the seaside as a well travelled child would get from a museum/adventure type trip.

HoratioHufnagel – Member
My OH is an overworked underpaid teacher too, and I’d imagine what most teacher’s are concerned about is that the schools (which are now mostly acadamies, and desperate to meet ofstead targets to get funding) will insist teachers do lots of extra planning for each and every child that’s going to be taken out of class.

Me too, until I told them to stick it up their…

Overworked and underpaid? Go and do something else!

Fair point.

My niece was allowed to come and visit us from the USA during term time. She visited plenty of historical sites and was given an assignment to write it up and present it to the class. Given that most of her classmates will probably never leave their state, it was probably highly beneficial.

no-one is advocating a free-for-all approach, just a return to the previous system of discretion

The precedent has now been set however to do it without permission. Which renders the headteachers decision useless.

What’s with the idea that education can only be had in school?

The idea that kids ‘learn’ while on a holiday that consists of skiing or swimming in a pool/playing on the beach (which is what 90% of these holidays are) is just deluded.

The idea that kids ‘learn’ while on a holiday that consists of skiing or swimming in a pool/playing on the beach (which is what 90% of these holidays are)

Says who?

There are two things being discussed here:

1) Is it reasonable to let kids out of school for say family reasons or to have quality holiday that will be beneficial?

2) It it reasonable to let parents have complete control over whether or not their kids can take time off school?

3) Can a beach holiday be beneficial?

4) Can a skiing holiday be beneficial?

Re point 1 – my niece was only allowed to come *on condition* that she made it into an educational trip. Had she spent the whole time in the pool it would not have met those criteria.

Re point 4 – I never went on a skiing holiday as a kid, and never been as an adult. And I do feel I missed out on some good experiences. It’s quite difficult to arrange skiing in school holidays, isn’t it?

lunge – Member

Unless we’re talking about a significant percentage of parents taking their kids out of class, but is that the case?

It’s not now, no. But this recent ruling may well mean that is does become the case.

I’d find that hard to believe – prior to, maybe 3 years ago I think things were simpler – you just gave a note to Teacher – “little Timmy won’t be in next week, we’re going to Torremolinos” and Teacher said “lucky you” – the end. Classes were generally pretty full and kids disappearing off on hols tended to be on the last couple of days of the year and maybe a few days after Easter.

I don’t know if other parents feel the same, but this is how I fell things have changed in the last couple of years:

Councils more than schools I think starting sending home these letters via the schools, “if your child has Polio you’re only allowed to have them home for half a day” or words to that effect, I forget the exact advise but you needed to have a pretty ill kid on your hands for whoever was behind the letters to agree you could keep them home – quite rightly most Parents decided if they’d be the judge of when and how long their kids needed bed rest etc if they were ill.

Then there was the leave for bereavement – if someone died in your family, it didn’t matter one jolt how close they were to them, or how devastated they were, if they weren’t immediate family then they had to go to school, parents again decided “I’ll be the judge of that”

Finally, it came to the Holidays – it doesn’t matter if your kids had otherwise perfect attendance, or how many days your school took your kid away from their class to play cricket or rugby, book a holiday during term time and you’d pay a fine, if you don’t pay you’ll go to prison.

I think the most maddening thing was the clauses that meant the parents of kids who NEVER went to school completely avoided the fines.

The latest issue we have now with our local schools is a return to Victorian dress code for High School kids, blazers, hats etc – they’re impractical, uncomfortable and bloody expensive – I asked for the rational behind it – “oh we looked at schools who have the best exam results and copied them” Well Shock horror if Eton and such didn’t have the best results and oh they all were silly clothes too – but I reckon theirs more to their success than dressing like a Dickensian Swell.

A ski holiday introduces kids to a whole new world. An economy based around the joy to be had sliding down some snow up a mountain. Glaciers aren’t just something in a geography book, they’re what shaped the landscape and in some case what’s under your feet – hanging valleys, u-shaped valleys, geology all around you. The language will probably be foreign, the culture different and it’s all real without a screen or script.

Thanks for the holiday in the Alps, mum and dad. I learned to do all the things I saw people doing. Thanks for the trip to Brittany when we saw one of the first windsurfers, I learned to do that too. And thanks to the teacher who explained that with this new fangled EU thing I could live and work anywhere I chose.

Surely this just about cost saving rather than educational value?

The same holidays can be taken between terms.

Sky News: Update – Department of Education source says “we will now look to change the law” after father won legal challenge over term-time holiday

enjoy it while you can peeps…

[edit] I’ve seen no argument that says children get more from a holiday taken in term time than the same holiday taken in the holidays. IT’s an economic argument that people then try and justify,

The problem with replying on “at the headteacher’s discretion” is that is will be inconsistent between schools and perhaps between pupils. So one head may interpret that it’s a reasonable request and the head at their sisters school deems in unreasonable. Discretion is based on opinion, it’s human so people won’t be happy about it as it’s won’t be their opinion. So you then get requests for consistency, rules get brought in, and then people complain about a lack of common sense so the cycle continues.

The rules were strict but they were also fair and even. This will not be the case as soon as this is changed.

*taps sarcastometer. unexpectedly showing no signs, or it’s bust

I know. My fingers bled as I typed it.

It’s worse though as we have THM, Junkyard and Edukator agreeing with each other. It truly is Friday the 13th.

Thanks for the holiday in the Alps, mum and dad. I learned to do all the things I saw people doing. Thanks for the trip to Brittany when we saw one of the first windsurfers, I learned to do that too. And thanks to the teacher who explained that with this new fangled EU thing I could live and work anywhere I chose.

I didn’t know these things stopped happening during the school holidays…

I’m agreeing with Molgrips, Drac.

A major problem is that the people making the laws have the capability to pay the extroniate premium holiday price in the school holidays…so those making the laws have little understanding of the dilemma poorer families have….

And I’m agreeing with edenvalleyboy.

Advantage of legislation is that the rules should be applied equally to all, the discretion should be removed from any changes.

Parents can’t see that two different trips at two different times of the year may have different advantages and impacts. It’s just “but the smiths took their children, why are we punished?” I had one kid come back from the school ski trip (grrrrr) only to be taken on a family holiday the next week. He was in an exam year and missed the prelim which would be critical if he needed to appeal. Only reason was cost. We had to hold the returning of papers and marks until he had sat and paper marked. The whole year suffered as a consequence.

I like to apply the “what if everyone did the same?” principal to situations like this. Well, if they did, summer holidays would start two weeks earlier, Christmas last two weeks longer, because no-one wants to go on a cold summer holiday or ski in slush (assumptions made to demonstrate the point). It’s a shame there aren’t 13 other weeks in the year when they could go. If most people took the last two weeks of July off, which parents seem to argue nothing much happens, to go on a cheaper holiday, what do you think would happen? Well we might as well start back two weeks earlier… And the problem starts again.
Parents who can’t take time off in non-term time aside, it really does boil down to money. Using the argument that your kid is top of the class, well, that’s about one in thirty then, applying the if we all do the same principle.
Teachers trying to decide which pupils can go on holiday will only ever come across as favouritism and favour the better educated parents who invest more of their free time in their children’s education. It really isn’t a school’s or head’s role to decide this, that’s why we end up with one rule for everyone. Special cases aside, it does boil down to money and self-centeredness.

Glaciers aren’t just something in a geography book, they’re what shaped the landscape and in some case what’s under your feet – hanging valleys, u-shaped valleys, geology all around you. The language will probably be foreign, the culture different and it’s all real without a screen or script.

Exactly the same as North Wales or Scotland then.

Oh and FYI stuff like glaciation doesn’t feature in geography as much as it used to anymore.

Anyway, I blame Murdoch, keeps putting the price of Sky up so all those people with all the packages can’t afford their Costa Whatever holiday.

Every time a parent comes into school and says “i’m taking my child on holiday for a week” the teacher(s) have to spend hours writing a weeks worth of lesson plans for that child, on top of all the regular planning, marking, goal setting, reporting and ensuring each of the 35 kids is either challenged or supported etc.

None of this happened in the Good Old Days, which is why no-one minded so much.

It’s no good leaving it up to the kids/parents, because it’s the school that loses out, so it’s the school that needs to ensure all the work gets done.

This could all be sorted with more money for smaller class sizes or something, but no-one likes paying more tax, especially the Conservatives, which is why they’ll just define the law more clearly and make it more illegal.

I’ve never seen a glacier in North Wales or Scotland. I’ve also no idea what’s taught in geography but it’s a real pity if kids aren’t taught about glaciers and how melting the remaining ones will raise sea levels and drown large populated areas.

Surely this just about cost saving rather than educational value?

The same holidays can be taken between terms.

The only times Stoners Jr have ever been taken out of school early are for the TdF. This term, again, we have asked for, and been granted, permission to take the boys out of school for the last Thurs/Fri of term so as to be able to make it to the last day of the tour.

Fortunately our headmistress isn’t some histrionic crybaby wailing about the huge disruption this will cause to the other 100 children in the school and damning them all to a failed education.

drown large populated areas.

*fingers crossed it’s the North*

I’ve never seen a glacier in North Wales or Scotland.

A bit before your time probably or you just weren’t paying attention – or you were away on holiday!

Fortunately our headmistress isn’t some histrionic crybaby wailing about the huge disruption this will cause to the other 100 children in the school and damning them all to a failed education.

🙂

the dilemma poorer families have….

Can I afford this holiday?

No

Better find one I can afford then. Like buying a tent.

As dilemmas go, it’s not **** rocket science.

I understand that for some kids, missing some time off school isn’t a problem, but the sense of entitlement some people seem to have about a holiday does grate sometimes.

How does this one work then?…

In a few weeks time my daughter is going on a French exchange trip, and only 5% of her Y8 pupils are going. During that week away she will miss a weeks worth of national curriculum work. Will she…

a) be losing out terribly on a weeks worth of normal school work to be forever damaged by this loss. And the remaining 95% of her year will now be 1 week ahead of her.
b) benefit from learning about about another country, their ways, culture, family life and their schools.

There will be no lessons during her trip, but I know which she’ll gain a lot more from.

An exchange trip, as in a proper exchange where your kids will be handed over to French families. I’m impressed, Muffin-man. The real exchanges Madame and her colleagues used to organise all fell through because British parents were worried that the French families would be sex fiends, irresponsible etc.. She still organises trips but they rely on paid host families In Brighton, Chatham etc.