it would seem clear that if the absentee imposes work on the teacher, however small an amount, then it would of necessity have a negative impact on the class.

again also self evidently true so not sure why you are struggling so much to accept this.

Do I need to prove that as well 😕

Footflaps..I was on the verge of going postal…so this is a MUCH better alternative 😉

DrP

so this is a MUCH better alternative

Selfish and shameless 😉

The STW mob will have burnt down your practice by the time you get back!

Its has a severe impact on learning for the entire class..

This may be so (yet to see evidence of this produced) but your attitude seems to echo the issues within formal state-provided education with regards to the education needs of the individual.

The rush to meet targets/levels is all well and good, and all manner of efforts are thrown at those who struggle to meet their’s, but what about those who exceed them by some margin?

My daughter is often bored in her lessons because, even with the anchor of my genetics, she is an outstanding pupil, being very intelligent and self-motivated (she is learning Japanese and Sociology outside of school).

Whilst I understand the ‘herd teaching’ theory you appear to be espousing, does it mean that my daughter (who is rapidly becoming tired of state-provided education due to its lack of challenges) is merely a teaching tool under your theory? That her mere presence, regardless of her individual learning needs, assists the teaching of the less able? If this is so, what happens when she becomes weary of lack of challenge and becomes disruptive? How will that affect the learning of others within her class?

As it is, my wife (who is a teacher) and I have no qualms with removing her from school during term-time for holidays (most recently to the US for a family wedding), because I know her education needs are met more by our’s and her efforts beyond what the school can provide. Also we’re not so keen for her to remain in school purely to make up the numbers, whilst perhaps building up resentment towards the system.

As an aside, the school she is at is an excellent school. We just understand the limitations of the current education system and, given they’ve agreed to all our in-term holiday requests, so must they.

evidence suggests that taking kids out of class affects the learning outcome for those kids in particular.

And that’s is of my own concern, to manage/mitigate as I see fit. Not anyone else’s.

Falsely projecting the harm onto others is certainly NOT self evident.
Afterall, I can just as easily show that class achievement improves with smaller class sizes as a teacher has more time to dedicate to each other pupil…so, absentees from class tends to greater class achievement! Genius! We can both keep on making up “self evident” facts all day long if you like. Insistence is not the same as evidence.

Anyway, on a more philosophical bent: I’ve been consistent in my liberalist/small-state point of view here. Im not sure how Drac’s appearance on my side of the fence squares up with his politic though. And more to the point, how on earth did we end up with a political axis of evil, misfits, disparates such as Junky, THM and Edukator preaching for the assimilation of the borg state absorption of our children?

you cannot teach someone who is not there

Sceptical of Junkyard’s graph. Strikes me a lot of information is being lost by graphing that days set. In other words, it does not factor in the reasons for absence.

Err, I’ve been arguing the opposite Stoner. First Drac, now you. Could someone point me to the post where someone hacked my login and posted something against parents being able to take kids out of school for a holiday.

my apologies, fellow libertarian!

how on earth did we end up with a political axis of evil, misfits, disparates such as Junky, THM and Edukator preaching for the assimilation of the borg state absorption of our children?

😀

Well that is not what I am preaching but amused at the point and the thread.

what about those who exceed them by some margin?

Well there is gifted and talented but yes the one size fits all is not perfect for all. The “problem” is, and no offence meant as everyone loves their own kids more than some other kids and this is not a bad thing, all parents only GAS about what education does for their child. However the teacher has to care about the best outcomes for all.

A deep pedagogical debate is unlikely to happen on STW but essentially the teacher needs to manage your daughter and try to make sure she is also stretched. I am not sure what you think my theory is beyond you need to be there to learn. Its as true for your daughter as for any other child. The only real difference is your daughter could either learn quicker and do less hours or learn more if pushed.She still needs to be there though. Hardly a controversial view.
The reality is she will be bored for a large portion of her schooling if she is in advance of her peers. I encourage my eldest to help those least able in his class when he has finished He likes helping folk. I am not sure it will last though but who knows.

Sceptical of Junkyard’s graph.

Its not mine and it as just a nice Google hit I have no idea of actual source or content

Falsely projecting the harm onto others is certainly NOT self evident.

It is hence why you are still refusing to answer the question or the one from Dr J

Afterall, I can just as easily show that class achievement improves with smaller class sizes

Its not quite as linear or as universally true as that and that one i can evidence. Its an oft stated reason by those not in education though* NO offence but its not really true that point.

as a teacher has more time to dedicate to each other pupil…so, absentees from class tends to greater class achievement! Genius!

Except the person not there is still in the class and still part of the class achievement. That its terrible on every level

We can both keep on making up “self evident” facts all day long if you like

.
Yes but mine make sense and you cannot negate them. Yours have neither of these qualities. 😛

how on earth did we end up with a political axis of evil, misfits, disparates such as Junky, THM and Edukator preaching for the assimilation of the borg state absorption of our children?

Education and the EU make for some strange bed fellows I grant you that 😆

I think , though not sure, THM and i agree on Utility in the philosphical sense – we also agree on grammar schools – though not quite fully.
I do get your point and its one of those. My kids do ok i could remove them and it have limited impact. However you cannot have every child out for two weeks, which will include those that struggle the most anyway, and think this wont impact on what can be taught TO ALL as the teacher will be spending time , that could be done teaching everyone, on teaching the absentee one to catch up or preparing work for them to do when away. I just dont see how you cannot accept that point. Its pretty basic stuff IMHO

You might as well argue you could build a house just as quickly and well if some of the folk who are meant to be on site in your 38 week period can just take two weeks off whenever they feel like it as it wont have any impact on the overall outcome. Its just so obviously false i cannot believe you want “science” to prove it to you,

*The evidence base on the link between class size and attainment, taken as a whole,finds that a smaller class size has a positive impact on attainment and behaviour in the early years of school, but this effect tends to be small and diminishes after a few years.The most recent research supports this.
https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/183364/DFE-RR169.pdf

^ good paper. contents absorbed.

Research on parental opinion on class size in 1996 found that 96% of parents believed
that the number of children in a class affects the quality of teaching and learning. In the
same study teachers and head teachers were also found to consider class size to be
an important issue.

Dont tell me the pros fell foul of the same assumption?

You still cant evidence class harm from absenteeism though 😉

😆

I also cannot prove that if i have twins and i educate one and dont educate the other [ ethics would prevent this and then i would need replication anyway] that the educated one will be the brighter.
I Guess the outcome of that will have to forever remain a mystery to us to 😉

Falsely projecting the harm onto others is certainly NOT self evident.

You do seem to be struggling with this concept*. Not sure why.

To take it out of the emotive context a little I’ll run this one by you and see what you think.

Are you aware of what is going on with A level at the moment? We are moving from module courses to linear. Modular means AS exams to sit at the end of 6.1 and linear means all the exams are at the end of 6.2. The new linear courses are a little more content heavy acknowledging the fact you are not pausing half way through to revise for a bunch of exams – you are expected to be teaching proper through the summer of 6.1. Only snag is Gove in all his twattery decreed that different subjects will change over in different academic years. This is the first year of the shitfest and AS exams start on Monday. Some kids are doing all modular subjects, some all linear and most a combination of the two. In an attempt to navigate this abomination most schools are not pausing for exam leave and are teaching straight through exam season with kids missing the day of and the day before each exam but otherwise getting on with normal lessons. For the next 4 weeks I’m not going to have a single unaffected class. Every class will have a sizable minority missing. I’m meant to carry on regardless….but I’m not going to. How can I introduce a new, complex concept from which all subsequent work depends and then build upon it next lesson if I know a bunch of students will be missing; then the same the next lesson and the next for 4 weeks. So we are going off on a tangent and doing some ‘nice to have’ shizzle and recovering old areas to check for understanding.

Fortunately this clusterfook is only going to last 3 years until all subjects have switched across but in my opinion based on 18 years of teaching this is what it would be like every summer if all entitled self-orientated parents did what they please only thinking about their little darling and not comprehending the big picture. If you want bespoke and to call all the shots, go down the homeschooling route.

*I hear your clamour for research data. I’m not going trawling for you because, to be frank, I can’t be arsed – I’ve done this job long enough to know what it’s like to convince myself and if you are persuaded or not doesn’t bother me that much. I do know that Chichester university’s education dept have some PHD bod working on something akin to this but know no more than that at the moment.

^ This – no-one is advocating a free-for-all approach, just a return to the previous system of discretion.[/quote]

I wonder what the head teacher would have to say about a proposed trip to Disney World in term time (for a pupil who had already been taken out of school for a week)? Ah, actually we know, the school didn’t give permission.

I tend to agree that is the best solution (and clearly it does still happen, given Stoner’s experience and I’m also aware that some kids at our school have got permission for the odd day or two out of school). The thing is, for the case which went to court, the school hadn’t given permission – so the court ruling isn’t in favour at all of headteachers making the decisions. In fact the court ruling was made on the basis of a small technical legal point – on which point the government says it will change the law. That’s the way with court rulings – no comment or ruling was made on the broader issues.

Of course the pupils in our school (and the one Stoner’s kids go to AFAIK) are mostly from families who care about education. So not only are the parents less likely to ask to take a holiday which will have a significant impact on the education of their kids (or impact on the education of the class as a whole), they’re also likely to take steps to mitigate any impact on their education (which will also minimise any disruption to the rest of the class). The schools are also well run and know their kids so are well aware of which kids a couple of days out won’t be a problem for. The trouble is, not all schools are like that, so I can see how there can be problems with headteacher discretion.

Convert – you teach a-level. Do you think the situation is different earlier in schooling? Genuine question.

The problem with discretion is that it often amounts to discrimination.

How about a few simple rules for all:

One week a year no questions asked. A second week with a pedagogical justification.

No obligation on teaching staff to do anything whatsoever to help students catch up with worked missed during parent-requested absence.

Informal help to catch up between students encouraged but neither formalised nor imposed.

The results of students for whom teachers have not been given their full support for absence will not count towards appraisals of teachers.

Convert – you teach a-level. Do you think the situation is different earlier in schooling? Genuine question.

I think I have said this before on similar threads, but yes I do think there is a difference. Where the line is I’m not sure; maybe the primary/secondary divide, maybe a little earlier. Irrespective of age the disruption to the whole class’s momentum still stands though. I still think in this scenario the potential of the whole should be put ahead of the convenience of the individual unless there is a genuine need.

Maybe I’m bias though and just value what I know about more and it should all be treated equally.

Edit…

For the sake of the pedantic arguements…

from British Educational Research Journal ‘Bunking off” the impact of truancy on pupils and teachers.

You will require a lgin to gain acces, but here is the abstract…

There is widespread interest in the impact of unauthorised absence on pupil attainment, links with disaffection, exclusion from school and criminality. However, little is heard about what those who take unauthorised absence from school think that the effect has been on them; nor do we hear the voices of other pupils and their teachers. This article presents evidence from a one-year study of absence in seven local authorities in England funded by the Department for Education and Skills. It defines ‘truancy’, explores some issues from existing literature on pupil non-attendance, and presents evidence to show the impact that absence from school has on truants, other pupils and teachers. Finally, it suggests that although the greatest impact is on the academic and socio-psychological development of persistent absentees, the attitudes and learning of other pupils and the workload and morale of teachers are also affected.

IN YOUR FACE STONER IN YOUR FACE

😆

Who knew eh who knew 😉

Fos sake of clarity tongue in cheek banter

Can I afford this holiday?

No

Better find one I can afford then. Like buying a tent.

As dilemmas go, it’s not **** rocket science.

I understand that for some kids, missing some time off school isn’t a problem, but the sense of entitlement some people seem to have about a holiday does grate sometimes

You clearly missed the point @morecashthandash.

You seem to be saying that even if a family could scrape together the money to take their children to France (for example) to help with their language studies, understanding of other cultures, quality family bonding time, one-off experiences etc etc in non-term prices..it is however just tough luck if they cannot afford it in the rip-off prices of holiday time and should ‘go and buy a tent’. You can’t see a dilema here for a parent who may value informal education, life experiences and family time etc along with formal education and their child is performing perfectly at school so wouldn’t be missing out? That is a dilema for some.

And for the record – I am not in favour of removing children for holidays at all. It’s just I can see the dilema that you (I have to assume) can’t.

Do I spend a week with my family?

Yes

It’s not rocket science.

There is widespread interest in the impact of unauthorised absence on pupil attainment, links with disaffection, exclusion from school and criminality. However, little is heard about what those who take unauthorised absence from school think that the effect has been on them; nor do we hear the voices of other pupils and their teachers. This article presents evidence from a one-year study of absence in seven local authorities in England funded by the Department for Education and Skills. It defines ‘truancy’, explores some issues from existing literature on pupil non-attendance, and presents evidence to show the impact that absence from school has on truants, other pupils and teachers. Finally, it suggests that although the greatest impact is on the academic and socio-psychological development of persistent absentees, the attitudes and learning of other pupils and the workload and morale of teachers are also affected.

Lovely. Persistent being the key point there not one off.

My school took us skiing and sailing and went to drama festivals in term time. one of the ski weekends was extended at short notice to a week because there was snow at glencoe.

Drac if your staff just took week off when they felt like it I am going to argue it has no impact on the ability of the service to do its job , has no impact on other staff/people or patients and has absolutely no consequences for anyone but the person not in work.
Makes sense I assume just like the schools argument.
I am still stunned that folk, I guess in an effort to think their choices dont impact on anyone but their kids, want to delude themselves.

I really cannot believe folk cannot accept this blindingly obvious point.

Drac if your staff just took week off when they felt like it I am going to argue it has no impact on the ability of the service to do its job

Haha! A bad example to pick. The fact that it has a massive impact is the reason I often go a year without a term time holiday so don’t get that full week with the kids. Of course it’s not that and it’s about cheap holidays like so many think.

Last year we had to return early from the holidays for the kids to go to school for 2 days at the start of term. They did absolutely no learning in those 2 days but I would have been fined if I had taken them out. This year I had to go cap in hand to get permission to move a week so we can get away as a family. I got it granted so this year I’m extremely lucky and have 3 weeks off in August. Next year I have none.

Both our schools have made it clear it has no impact except a little on our kids but they will follow the policy and report the absence even though they don’t agree with it.

Before I had kids in school I’d imagined taking them to the US for Thanksgiving. However now I’m not sure I would, because my eldest isn’t that confident with certain things and I would worry about the impact. I’d imagined them being geniuses at everything, of course, like their dad.

Yup that’s a sensible individual response.

Those gits over at the Mash clearly haven’t read the academic paper either… http://www.thedailymash.co.uk/news/society/six-year-old-taken-on-term-time-holiday-will-never-catch-up-on-colouring-20160515108831

Absence requested by parents = truancy, Junkyard. That report talks about a different issue.

Junior was 18 in January. Quite nice as since then he’s signed off his own absence. The school lets me know, I ignore it, nothing to do with me.