Stop blaming the Tories, Labour introduced them (despite it not being in their manifesto in ’97. Labour tripled them (when former NUS President Charles Clarke was Education Secretary), despite their manifesto saying there would be no increase in tuition fees. The legislation to push it through was passed only with the support of Scottish Labour MPs who should have abstained as it didn’t affect their consituents following the creation of the Scottish Parliament (Scots hang your heads in shame, it may have been payback for the polltax, but that’s like blaming German kids now for 2 world wars).

Once it was introduced fees were only ever going to go one way? Where were the NUS when fees were introduced? Not upsetting labour, as they didn’t want to risk their future careers. NUS president of 97 has been a Special Adviser to the Scottish Parliamentary labour Party, NUS President of ’98 stood as a Labour Candidate for Milton Keynes at the last election. They should hang their heads in shame for shafting future generations.

Politicians are almost exclusively self-serving scumbags regardless of their “affiliation”.

I’ll be encouraging my kids to do vocational studies unless they want a “profession” that can afford the debt.

…the income of their parents will have no effect on graduates ability to handle the debt – you pay out of your earned income…

Oh come on! No effect?

You don’t think it is a bit easier to handle the tuition fee debt if you know the Bank of Mum and Dad will pay for all your accommodation, food, beer, course materials etc while you are at uni and probably for the next few years after that while you get yourself established in a well-paid job? Maybe even pay off the fees for you?

We should be working ensuring that everyone has equal access to the education they want, regardless of background – not putting in additional barriers and costs!

Trekster – Member

Don’t think it even covers the interest!

is that a problem?

Remind me again which government introduced tuition fees?

Yep – Labour are no better. Almost as many posh-boy Etonians in there these days.

But it was the Tories that decide to triple the fees.

You are presumably unaware that fees can be paid for by loans which you need never pay off if you don’t earn very much, so it doesn’t actually make the slightest difference to your finances or those of your family if they increase the fees.

Ahh… so it is 44k of purely theoretical magical debt that doesn’t really exist and never actually needs paying off?

I’m confused how anyone can think that 44k of debt doesn’t make the slightest difference to family finances, regardless of how it is structured and paid off.

You have a good point about the other costs of uni being a barrier, but as pointed out multiple times, the tuition fee debt is an irrelevance compared to that. Just in case you missed it above, the Tory government decreased the tuition fee burden on those struggling to make ends meet.

Well £27k of it certainly is – the other bit is nothing to do with tuition fees. Given that somebody on low income will pay less under the current system than the previous one, why is it an issue how big the nominal debt is?

I’m confused how anyone can think that 44k of debt doesn’t make the slightest difference to family finances, regardless of how it is structured and paid off.

If it makes no difference to your take home pay or to your ability to get a mortgage, what other difference do you imagine it would make to family finances? Banks certainly don’t treat student loans the same as ordinary debt when assessing financial circumstances.

£44k, normal degree 3yrs. Tuition fees 3x£9k = £27k
So lets call it £6k a year to live off. That is perfectly doable.

Rent would consume around £4k p.a. Still think £2k p.a. for everything else is doable?

GrahamS – Member

Ahh… so it is 44k of purely theoretical magical debt that doesn’t really exist and never actually needs paying off?

pretty much, yes.

but most importantly, the repayments are less, by £50/month than they were.

that’s £600/year, can i transfer my old student debt to the new system please? – i’ll gladly accept the increased debt, because as has been mentioned once or twice, it’ll makes no difference (other than reduced repayments)

Why do people go to Uni?

Because there is a glass ceiling above their heads otherwise.

I’m applying for a MSc course, not because I want to from an academic perspective, but because I have to in order for my career to progress.

Without a degree, my years of experience (and subsequent responsibilities) mean naff-all. I even applied (out of curiosity) for the most junior position in my area of IT, neglecting to include in my CV I had already done that job back in 2005. No degree? Sorry, you’re not qualified for this position.

Without a degree/masters, there is no “up” from where I am now – and seemingly, no “down” either, which is worrying.

The poorer you are less you have to pay.
More importantly there are staggering amount of jobs which never required a degree in the past. I know someone who left school at 16 and is an area manager for a bank. All her qualification she picked up at the bank ie they were directly related to her job. Lots of jobs you used to learn on the job. It seems rather a waste of resources to be teaching people things they will never need.

25 yrs ago a £400 student overdraft was a big deal, and your annual student Loan of £500 was used for a pc or to help out with beer living expenses and if I recall had to be paid back in 5 years 😆

You would presumably also happily triple your “debt” in order to do so?

(I’m assuming here that you’re not a particularly high earner, so won’t be paying off the debt).

double post – somebody please report to mods?

ransos – Member

Rent would consume around £4k p.a. Still think £2k p.a. for everything else is doable?

Should be able to get rent below that, I pay that living in a nice part of Cambridgeshire, but yes, I think it’s doable because I do it.
Add on a job for the holidays and it should be no problem.

Rent would consume around £4k p.a.

My daughter is at uni in That London Tarn. 4k pa rent looks like a dream to me !! 🙁

aracer – Member

You would presumably also happily triple your “debt” in order to do so?

yes, happily, where do i sign? It’ll save me £15,000, in actual money.

(I’m assuming here that you’re not a particularly high earner, so won’t be paying off the debt).

correct, exactly average salary, that’s an Engineering degree for you.

Without a degree, my years of experience (and subsequent responsibilities) mean naff-all. I even applied (out of curiosity) for the most junior position in my area of IT, neglecting to include in my CV I had already done that job back in 2005

Your contradicting yourself you applied for a job which you were qualified (via experience) for but didn’t tell them and funnily enough they didn’t give you the job! Honest!
Also you had done the job before therefore how did you get the job that you weren’t qualified for?

We need a better educated work force, the question isn’t whether more people should be going the question is whether we should subsidize higher education more.

[video]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WMF-Z74C1QE[/video]

Ah yes – I too have one of those, and worked out I would be better off under the new system than the old (fortunately I’m old enough not to be on either).

Your contradicting yourself you applied for a job which you were qualified (via experience) for but didn’t tell them and funnily enough they didn’t give you the job! Honest!
Also you had done the job before therefore how did you get the job that you weren’t qualified for?

I neglected to tell them I had done 1st line support work, but included the 2nd line, 3rd line, etc.

Lack of degree meant I didn’t even match their minimum criteria for entry (regardless of experience)

Rent would consume around £4k p.a. Still think £2k p.a. for everything else is doable?

My rent (in 2004-2008) was £2500/yr for a room in Sheffield. And that came out of a £4k loan, and I actualy came out of uni with money in the bank (mostly saved from summer jobs and never spent).

So yup, £2k is plenty, £3.5k is even more.

Uni is still good VFM, just need to be bright and pick your course. Engineering, medicine, etc. University for people with B’s and C’s probably less so.

There are alternatives that may (I stress may) bring education costs down. MOOC’s are growing in popularity and the technology makes the long distance learning alternative more viable and appealing. Adults less engaged in new technology may find it hard to acclimatise but kids will find it more ‘normal’.

PS and she doesn’t work for the coop bank where qualification are a disadvantage!

Surely payments START at £50/month

Just paid off my mortgage style loan after a million years (including a few years of downplaying earnings for deferrment). Have to say I would think twice about going to Uni now the debt would certainly scare me off. Seems far more transactional these days, less about getting an education and more about getting a job. Very sad state of affairs.

ahwiles – you’re talking rubbish

I was old enough to vote and I voted for the party that said they would never back the increase of tuition fees..

Well two parties have said that, and both did the opposite after the elections (2001 & 2010).

But the truth is, the people who this most effects directly in future, still can’t vote.

It is pretty terrible. But it’s not quite had the effect we expected, the prediction was that it’d hammer admissions from lower income homes, not so much because of affordability but because of the whole spectre of debt thing- middle class people are just assumed to be more comfortable with scary sums of debt. In practice that doesn’t seem to have happened, at least not for us, there does seem to be some truth that the lending facility is a playing field leveller- applications from lower income areas have actually increased a little. Mind you, we’re doing more for widening access- more funding, more consideration during applications (and that extra funding largely comes from the higher income from fee-payers so it’s a big feedback loop) and some say that we’re actually seeing a longer term increase being suppressed a little, rather than a new increase. Frankly the statistical cases are easy to fiddle.

aracer – Member

No need, as under EU rules your kids will be able to go to Scottish unis under Scottish student finance system once Scotland is independent. Might be a fight for places, but living in Scotland won’t help with that.

I’ll field this one 😉 Actually, the outcome isn’t decided at all but what you describe is the least likely outcome and isn’t taken seriously by the industry.

The 2 most likely outcomes:
1) The legal case for special circumstances is succesful. Fundamentally exemptions are allowed where legislation would bring an essential service into risk. Some folks seem to think this is going to work, I’m not, it’s the scottish fee-free system that’s at risk not the university sector. So the alternative…

2) The incredibly simple one, make it free at point of sale via automatic scholarships so while scottish/resident students are still officially paying fees, a fee abatement or scholarship for the same amount is made for every qualifying student. This is a system already widely used for PG funding via the SFC so the infrastructure all exists, it’s really just a process change. I bet 10 scottish salmondollars this is what will happen.

Well £27k of it certainly is – the other bit is nothing to do with tuition fees

If it makes no difference to your take home pay or to your ability to get a mortgage, what other difference do you imagine it would make to family finances?

Makes no difference to your take home pay… unless you earn more than £21,000 (when last I heard the national average wage is £26,500).

Okay you have a long time to pay it off but it is still money directly out of your pocket when you are starting your career.

Banks certainly don’t treat student loans the same as ordinary debt when assessing financial circumstances.

Perhaps not, but what about that other £17k worth of debt…?

I’m glad I graduated long before all this, but even way back then I was still on pitiful student loans, four of us in a two bedroom flat, eating KwikSave “mince” and holding down two night jobs to pay my way.

My rent (in 2004-2008) was £2500/yr for a room in Sheffield. And that came out of a £4k loan, and I actualy came out of uni with money in the bank (mostly saved from summer jobs and never spent).

So yup, £2k is plenty, £3.5k is even more.

You’re way out of date. The cheapest self-catered halls at Sheffield are now more than £4k p.a.

https://www.sheffield.ac.uk/accommodation/prospective/rents

Lack of degree meant I didn’t even match their minimum criteria for entry (regardless of experience)

That’s the dumb ass HR filter in full effect, and why I cajole all my minions to ensure they get certified. Don’t give anyone an excuse to not interview you.
Although I agree a degree for a service desk job is just bollocks.

Surely payments START at £50/month

Just for factual accuracy, payments start at 9% of earnings above £21K. So if you earn, for example, £25K you would be expected to pay 9% of £4K pa = £30pm.

If you earn less than £21K the amount you earn goes up by the current rate of inflation. By £41K pa earnings the interested accrued goes up to rate of inflation plus 3%.

Anyway, the staggering thing about the tripling of tuition fees is that it isn’t significantly reducing the cost of higher education to the taxpayer.

http://www.theguardian.com/education/2014/mar/21/tuition-fees-former-tory-adviser-government-maths-wrong

the national average wage is £26,500).

Average graduate satarting sallary in 2013 was £29,500 IIRC, so that’s a 9% retrun on an investment of £44k, that you may not even have to pay back if it doesn’t give you a return!

One daughter university degree 32 £35,000 a year
second daughter no degree £50,000 a year and a company BMW and neither of them will give me any money surely the bank of Dad should be paid first.

.thisisnotaspoon – Member
the national average wage is £26,500).
Average graduate satarting sallary in 2013 was £29,500 IIRC, so that’s a 9% retrun on an investment of £44k, that you may not even have to pay back if it doesn’t give you a return

I think that £29,000 should be after tax?

thestabiliser – Member

ahwiles – you’re talking rubbish

example?

graduates at our place start on £23k, that’s £2k over the £21k threshold.

they pay back £200/year, that’s £17/month.

(ok, it’s 9% over the threshold, so it’s actually less than i’m suggesting)

Graham S – But it was the Tories that decide to triple the fees. “

Following the precedent set by their Labour counterparts, who introduced them and tripled them within 5 years of their introduction, despite a manifesto which said that they wouldn’t.

Once introduced fees will only go one way….

VAT was a tax on luxury goods when it was introduced, is heating and lighting your home a luxury???

ransos – Member

You’re way out of date. The cheapest self-catered halls at Sheffield are now more than £4k p.a.

So get a private house share for much less.
Unless you’re telling me that accomodation around Sheffield is more costly than my nice part of Cambridgeshire, which I sincerely doubt.

Surely anyone who warrants a university education can work that out.

kelvin – But the truth is, the people who this most effects directly in future, still can’t vote.

But shouldn’t WE be voting for our kids futures? Not the baby boomers that really did “never have it so good”?

Our kids are effectively mortgaging their futures to pay for the retirements that their grandparents were promised.

You’ve confused me now, Graham. By saying “mounting fees” and “what the Tories want.” I assumed you were complaining about the fees being increased by the Tories, not them being introduced by Labour. Apologies if it’s actually Tony you’re having a go at. What the Tories have done with the fee system increases the take home pay for those on national average wage.

Perhaps not, but what about that other £17k worth of debt…?

The debt which is related to the abolition of grants rather than the introduction of tuition fees? Well I think you can actually blame that one on Facha, but it might even pre-date her.

I’m glad I graduated long before all this

Not in maths presumably?

sbob – Member

Unless you’re telling me that accomodation around Sheffield is more costly than my nice part of Cambridgeshire, which I sincerely doubt.

probably not, but Sheffield has 2 good universities, and only a small part of the city is favoured by students, there’s a lot of demand!

The average 29k graduate salary is calculated by looking at graduates entering graduate schemes and the like. It completely ignores the fact that many graduates will not be doing these sorts of jobs or be earning those sorts of wages even though the job they’re doing might list a degree as a requirement.