20mph in Wales…..

100% agree and that makes sense in a typical urban environment – i.e. town or city.

(the vast majority of Wales is not your typical urban environment. 😉 )

You do know the vast majority of roads are not within this 20mph zone?

There still will be 30/40/50/60/70 mph roads all over Wales.

You won’t be doing 20mph over Pen y pass or A40 past Camarthen – unless the traffic is bad as usual…

The traffic will have to be good to be going 20mph there :)

I’m going to try and get out for a road ride later on some of the roads that are most affected. It’ll be interesting to see if I can ride with traffic instead of being passed.

My favourite claim by the antis, was that improved road safety is a bad thing because it will decrease the number of organ donors. If those are the straws you are grasping you don’t have much of an argument.

I think those speculating about imminent 20mph Armageddon would do well to look at those areas where this has been in place for a while. As indicated earlier on in this thread, we have had blanket 20mph limits in residential areas of the Scottish Borders for about 3 years now.

On implementation we had people complaining that 20mph was higher risk as drivers would get bored at that speed and look around more, resulting in more accidents. We also had people saying that it was more dangerous as they would have to watch their speedo more carefully and this would take their eyes off the road!

Oh, and people who said buildings would fall down due to the increased rumblings caused by slow lorries. And, obviously, all of the shops would go out of business as no-one would come into the area due to 20mph limits.

We also had death threats being sent to the council officers responsible for implementing it.

Well, none of the predicted doom happened. Everyone just slowed down a bit and got on with their lives. It is easier to pull out of junctions, cycling on the roads is nicer. Kids find it easier to cross roads and the world just carries on. Just like it does in Europe where 30kmph is the norm in built up areas.

Remember, if it makes Daily Mail readers furious, it is probably a good thing for the rest of us. Don’t be like a Daily Mail reader.

Remember, if it makes Daily Mail readers furious, it is probably a good thing for the rest of us. Don’t be like a Daily Mail reader.

A fine rule to live by.

Someone on a Facebook post claimed that on Sunday morning their usual 15 min journey to the swimming pool took an hour and a half, due to the lower speed limit.

I’m going to try and get out for a road ride later on some of the roads that are most affected. It’ll be interesting to see if I can ride with traffic instead of being passed.

I’ve been out around town all day doing errands and lots of drivers aren’t sticking to 20 so currently it’s no different. I stuck to 20 along Albany Road and had the usual queue of impatient drivers behind me while the Deliveroo riders were speeding past on their illegal electric motorbikes.

It’ll take a good few weeks for any change to be noticeable.

excuses I’ve heard –

older kids should know better around roads.  it’s there problem if they step out in the road

it will take emergency vehicles longer to get anywhere

delivery vehicles will not be able to do as many rounds so it will cost us more money to get stuff delivered

it will cause more pollution as my car will be driving at higher rpm

I can’t drive my car at 20

my car doesn’t have cruise control

not everyone has an electric car

cyclist can go faster down hills, therefore it’s more dangerous

what about all the illegal scooters

prove to me driving at 30 is dangerous

the ‘people’ did not consent to a change to 20

it goes against the norms of the country, which is a 30 in urban areas

its unenforcable and therefore shouldnt be done

it will mean more overtakes and therefore more accidents

I gave up on the relentless barrage of twattery

roll on automated vehicles where choice on speed is taken away from people

Like most streets of it’s ilk, Albany Road (Cardiff I assume) has had a 20mph limit for some time. I am not sure how many changes we will see on the ground, as the Council already had implemented 20 mph in residential areas, and has designated a nummber of arterial routes as 30. So most of the pre-existinig signs will still be saying the right thing, though no doubt there will be changes with some previously 30 roads now 20.

20mph is more than the urban average speed.

When I commuted (by bike) car drivers would dream of being able to achieve 20mph.

What’s the pro lem?

There are few roads where slowing down is going to be noticeable that I use, one of which is Rhyd y Penau Road.

During COVID they put some speed bumps and a crossing at the bottom of that hill because there’s a nice woodland path that crosses the road and it had kids on bikes and walkers etc crossing a lot. That limits your speed, then there’s parked cars on each side after that as you approach a busy roundabout which was made 20 a while ago. So only the hill in this picture was fast. In the pictures it’s signposted 30 for a few hundred metres. If that goes to 20 then it will take mere seconds longer.

20mph is more than the urban average speed.

When I commuted (by bike) car drivers would dream of being able to achieve 20mph.

What’s the pro lem?

Average journey speed is not the same as driving along speed.

Every junction, queue etc (and of course, driving below the posted limit when the situation dictactes) is slowing you down.

I can do a fairly extended motorway drive, with the cruise control set to 72, and have a journey average of about 55. the 2 miles of slow urban traffic at each end takes a massive chunk off the average speed, which would very hard (ie requiring very illegal speeds) to catch back up.

Someone on a Facebook post claimed that on Sunday morning their usual 15 min journey to the swimming pool took an hour and a half, due to the lower speed limit.

Which means either / or

– They have been driving everywhere at 40mph in a 30mph zone.
– That they are driving 15-2o miles to get to a swimming pool – completely on residential streets and busy lanes?

I am struggling to think of a city in Wales that is over 15 miles in diameter….?

Which means either / or

– They have been driving everywhere at 40mph in a 30mph zone.
– That they are driving 15-2o miles to get to a swimming pool – completely on residential streets and busy lanes?

I am struggling to think of a city in Wales that is over 15 miles in diameter….?

Mathematically they would have to have gone from 100mph down to 20?

Although I suppose their argument was that somehow it increased congestion, which meant they sat in a traffic jam for 75min.

That and their timekeeping is like my OH’s. In her head she can be anywhere in 5 minutes by car. So if there’s traffic and she’s half an hour late then it’s the traffic’s fault. Nothing to do with her being 15 minutes late leaving the house, and it actually being a 15 minute journey, of which a few seconds was added by traffic.

Average journey speed is not the same as driving along speed.

Every junction, queue etc (and of course, driving below the posted limit when the situation dictactes) is slowing you down.

Indeed, but if you logged your speed around town between two junctions it would something like:
0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 5 10 15 20 25 30 25 20 15 10 5 0 0 0 0 0 0 0

And now it would be:
0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 5 10 15 20 20 20 20 20 15 10 5 0 0 0 0 0 0 0

The actual change in average speed is going to be tiny.

And that’s assuming an empty road in the middle of the night. In the real world you’re crawling along well under the limit because traffic can’t flow. So in the real world it’ll probably make no difference, or more likely actually speed things up a bit as traffic flows better.

Well according to this (Dunno how trustworthy the numbers actually are) the average UK car journey is 21.5 minutes and a distance of 8.4 miles, so an extra minute adds a whopping 4.6% to the time you’re stuck in your upholstered box with climate control and a stereo…

I found this one interesting:

People spend 16.8 minutes walking on average when they complete a trip mostly on foot. Those heading on longer walks tend to stay out for 31.3 minutes.

So people seem more prepared to spend time sat in cars than walking (seems to align with the 15 minute cities though). And half an hour is considered a “long walk”…

people must have very content and happy lives, in the grand scheme of things, if this is the thing they are going to waste their energy on getting irate about.

Indeed Imagine someone from Libya who’s entire family has just been washed away reading this thread and thinking “Blimey, I thought I had problems!”

That and their timekeeping is like my OH’s. In her head she can be anywhere in 5 minutes by car

That is familiar, My missus has pretty much the same understanding of how Cars travel through time and space, the mega-disruptive roadworks in Reading this last couple of weeks have helped to adjust her understanding a bit I think…

In traffic drivng along speed is sporadic the difference of 10mph will be minimal. How many time have you had someone over take you and speed away only to catch them up at the next pinch point.

If I had to drive to work it used to take longer than cycling very gently speed in urban situations is way of kidding yourself you are hurrying.

I’ve ended up emailing my mother to make sure she knows, given I expect there to have been plenty of changes around the Rhyl/Prestatyn area.

Stop cars parking on footpaths so pedestrians can use them as intended. The problem is that there is no roi on there

Never heard of parking tickets? FFS.

You’re not going to get a parking ticket for parking up on the pavement (subject to various caveats where you might but it’s not unlawful in itself).

It’s a speed limit, not a target. HTH.

I’m so bored now of this hoary cliché. Driving at or near the limit is absolutely a target so long as it’s appropriate for the road conditions. Go drive round at 20 in a 30 on your test without good reason to do so and you will fail. Driving too slowly can be classed as a CD30 (“being an insufferable pain in the arse to other road users”) and that’s 3-9 points. “But it’s a limit not a target, officer.”

Also, excessive speed differential can cause problems. If you did 20 on an NSL dual carriageway you’d potentially cause carnage. (See also, motorcyclists filtering too quickly relative to other traffic.)

sharkbait
Free Member

Absolutely agree – so they are reducing the speed limit so cars have to decelerate and accelerate more to/from 55/60??

Yep, and if the only speed changes you ever do were from 60 to 20 and back again that’d make a tiny difference, but that’s not how it works. You do way more speed changes in towns so the “slow down from 60 and speed back up” at the ends have less effect than everything that happens between.

On average obviously, there’ll be individual cases where you go from 60 to 20 and never slow down or speed up til you leave. But there’ll be far more cases where you do a bunch of speed changes between, so that’ll more than even out

What Cookee says !

When it snowed and the road was a solid jam it only took 2hrs 30mins to walk 7 miles to work. I quite enjoyed it.

If you did 20 on an NSL dual carriageway you’d potentially cause carnage

Only if people weren’t paying attention 😁

That is familiar, My missus has pretty much the same understanding of how Cars travel through time and space, the mega-disruptive roadworks in Reading this last couple of weeks have helped to adjust her understanding a bit I think…

Makes a change from disruptive cycling infrastructure putting people off riding 😂

How many time have you had someone over take you and speed away only to catch them up at the next pinch point.

Yesterday.

Driving up the road into Burnley, it’s built-up for a while then there’s a two-lane dual carriageway section. It’s 30mph throughout. I was doing 30, there’s another car behind me so close that you could probably have got a cheese slice between us. As the road widened he booted it past me and roared off with his head on fire.

Caught him up at the next lights. Where he was turning right. So when the lights changed I just pootled past him in the left lane. I glanced across to see if he might appreciate a cheery wave, but he was making it Very Obvious that he hadn’t seen me.

And sure, that’s an anecdotal pool of “one” with a side order of confirmation bias. There’s every possibility he’d have got there ahead of the lights cycle instead and I’d never have seen him again. I’d probably have done the same if I was following someone doing 20mph with an “it’s a limit not a target” bumper sticker. But it just seems so pointless for such a short stretch of road.

Only if people weren’t paying attention 😁

Whilst I agree completely, that will likely be of little comfort when you get out of hospital.

Whilst I agree completely, that will likely be of little comfort when you get out of hospital.

True, but it’s not going to stop me cycling on nsl dial carriageways.

Taking primary?

Taking primary?

No, to be fair, I think anybody doing that on any road is a bit of a prick 🙂

I’m so bored now of this hoary cliché. Driving at or near the limit is absolutely a target so long as it’s appropriate for the road conditions.

You’ve caveated your point into oblivion there because it’s the ‘appropriate for the road conditions’ that’s the entire problem with road safety and very specific to this issue.

No, to be fair, I think anybody doing that on any road is a bit of a prick 🙂

Any road? There are times where it’s appropriate. I don’t want someone overtaking me on a blind bend on a narrow road for instance, or squeezing past me when there’s a bollard creating a pinch point.

You’ve caveated your point into oblivion there because it’s the ‘appropriate for the road conditions’ that’s the entire problem with road safety and very specific to this issue.

It’s the entire problem with thinking that mostly arbitrary numbers on poles is the de facto answer to the issue that people cannot be trusted to make sensible decisions. But we’ve had this conversation before.

Any road? There are times where it’s appropriate. I don’t want someone overtaking me on a blind bend on a narrow road for instance, or squeezing past me when there’s a bollard creating a pinch point.

It shouldn’t be down to me to decide when somebody overtakes me, they should only ever do it when it is safe. It should make no difference whether I’m cycling in the gutter or the middle of the road.

It’s the entire problem with thinking that mostly arbitrary numbers on poles is the de facto answer to the issue that people cannot be trusted to make sensible decisions. But we’ve had this conversation before.

Well they can’t really be trusted can they, people keep on demonstrating that, 30 seems to be a number enough people struggle with already, so why not try 20 eh?
What is really the worst that can happen? a few less people die? at the expense of Drivers spending an additional 60 seconds on a comfy seat? I know there’s lots of imaginative ideas been proposed, but let’s be honest it’s all bollox, you know it won’t make a jot of difference.

The tantrum point from earlier is a fair one and one of the best ways to deal with toddlers not quite getting the message is to be prepared for further escalation of measures, if it’s not working in a decade or so how do you think you’ll feel about 15 in built up areas ;)

What about walking pace with a man with a red flag to walk in front? :)

I personally don’t find it to be a problem seeing as the roads are so battered and i’m rarely in a rush. Although, some roads are daft to have a 20mph limit because the roads are more like stroads.

What irks me are the people who think that their cars are going to die, their car is incapable of doing 20 or that fuel-consumption is the same regardless of the speed being driven.

It shouldn’t be down to me to decide when somebody overtakes me, they should only ever do it when it is safe.

I agree, but “shouldn’t” is doing some heavy lifting there. There’s plenty of things drivers shouldn’t be doing.

At the risk of repeating myself, I’m sure that being right will be of great comfort to you when you get out of hospital.

you know it won’t make a jot of difference.

It has in my town – and everywhere else in Scotland that 20mph has been introduced.

It takes one driver to slow to 20mph and you won’t have any choice in the matter.

It’s the entire problem with thinking that mostly arbitrary numbers on poles is the de facto answer to the issue that people cannot be trusted to make sensible decisions. But we’ve had this conversation before.

Traffic. One person driving one car can’t be left to make sensible decisions because they are but one tiny element of a large interconnected system. A system that fleshy vulnerable beings have to share their world with. There are very good reasons to set speed restrictions for the system as a whole, no matter how much that frustrates the individual and their sense of self determination.

“Remember, if it makes Daily Mail readers furious, it is probably a good thing for the rest of us. Don’t be like a Daily Mail reader.”

+1

“roll on automated vehicles where choice on speed is taken away from people”

+1

roll on automated vehicles where choice on speed is taken away from people”

This has already been invented. It is called “public transport”. It can work really well if you want it to.

Really hoping Scotland follows suit and expands the current 20mph areas to country-wide. Yes, it might feel slow but so what? If it improves conditions for other road users and increases safety, why wouldn’t you be in favour?