20mph in Wales…..

I fully agree with 30 limits but it is actually quite difficult to maintain 20mph. In both our cars it feels like it’s between gears, or the car just isn’t comfortable.

So you spend time watching the speedo trying to maintain 20 mph rather than eyes on the road.

one of our cars allows you to use cruise control at 20mph, one doesn’t. It’s easier to drive with it on in the car that has it which again imo defeats the objective

They are going to Porthmadog next week so I’m awaiting the fall out about it.

I’ve just had a long weekend there (and driven across Wales to get there obvs).

In the context of driving through towns and villages while travelling cross country, I think the 20mph limit works fairly well – as you never feel like you’re crawling along for ages.

The outskirts of towns are still often 30 anyway, and there are quite a few 40 zones (which maybe used to be NSL) – so you have to really pay attention to the signage.

Coming back to England and driving at 30 through town suddenly felt quite fast.

No, there’s an adjustment of some roads

I believe the new transport minister has said the 20mph zones should be concentrated around schools hospitals and heavily built up (residential) areas – so just like England and Scotland (?) then!

I know quite a lot of people who live in NW Wales and they generally disagreed with it and not many people actually paid attention to it.

So you spend time watching the speedo trying to maintain 20 mph rather than eyes on the road.

It’s takes less than a second to glance down at your speed and then back up, no need to watch it. Do, watch your speedo doing any other speed?

It’s a limit, not a target. You should be able to drive at a speed within a couple of mph without having to constantly look at the speedometer.

In both our cars it feels like it’s between gears, or the car just isn’t comfortable.

Your car is a lot like mine, in which 20mph is absolutely fine.  But ‘making my car slightly more comfortable’ isn’t a good reason to increase speed limits and cost lives even if it is ‘only’ ten a year.

It’s a limit, not a target. You should be able to drive at a speed within a couple of mph without having to constantly look at the speedometer.

I dont disagree. However in Wales many 20 mph roads are quite hilly up and down. At 20mph it doesnt take much throttle input to be exceeding the 7% over tolerance rule either going up a hill or then coasting back down the otherside.

My own experience of driving in the 20mph is that you constantly have people up your chuff getting angry or overtaking where its not safe to do so

I drove from the M4 A449 junction up to Barmouth last week. There were loads of 20mph speed limits through the towns & villages en route. I didn’t find it a problem at all, and the majority of them aren’t for very long anyway.🤷‍♂️

I fully agree with 30 limits but it is actually quite difficult to maintain 20mph. In both our cars it feels like it’s between gears, or the car just isn’t comfortable.

More likely just what you are used to. Cars have been designed to run properly at any speed from *just* above creep speed to the maximum speed the car is capable of for at least the last 30 years. I can happily trundle round my village at 18mph (the speed limit) with no hesitation or “discomfort”. I’ve even done it towing a 2 tonne trailer full of wood, uphill. (Or downhill for that matter.) And testing is done in far more arduous conditions then mooching round the valleys, two up.

(There are very few exceptions in the *production* car world. If you’ve had a stupid pop/bang tune added to your car and it’ll no longer idle/run cleanly, you deserve all the speeding tickets you get.)

So you spend time watching the speedo trying to maintain 20 mph rather than eyes on the road.

The classic I am a poor driver defence.

I live in Wales and have absolutely no problem with the 20mph speed limit. I pop the cruise control on and enjoy the slower, and safer, pace.

I find I can happily sit at 20 with almost no throttle, or 30 with just a touch – both in third gear.

I’ve only spent four days driving in Wales since the change, but I thought it was VERY well observed.

It’s easy to maintain a speed by listening to the engine note.  It’s a bit harder in an EV but then I just use the speed limiter. Pretty easy.

 At 20mph it doesnt take much throttle input to be exceeding the 7% over tolerance rule either going up a hill or then coasting back down the otherside.

You’re in for a shock when you find out that isn’t a rule.

I live in Wales and have absolutely no problem with the 20mph speed limit. I pop the cruise control on and enjoy the slower, and safer, pace.

I concur. Even without cruise control (which my car doesn’t have) , and on a “fairly” high performance motorbike, I just listen to the engine note and drive using that, I’m not “constantly” checking the speedo.

Also live in Wales and the only 20 I want reversed is up a bloody steep hill – I basically have to do it in 2nd gear and my poor little car is screaming at me. At 30mph I could do it in 3rd no worries, now I basically just go up it at 15mph and deal with having lots of angry people behind me.

I basically have to do it in 2nd gear and my poor little car is screaming at me

It probably isn’t, really, it just sounds a little higher than you’d want.

Oh it definitely is. It’s pretty much being red lined especially if I’ve got the bikes/other people in the car – issues with having a pathetic 68bhp and a 15% gradient. It’s not a problem, I just go slower.

Really, my point was 99.9% of the 20mph limits are absolutely fine. The 0.1% is just a bit more “uncomfortable”

Holding 20 takes a bit of getting used to, but after a couple of hundred yards, it’s second nature, and really quite relaxing. Plus there is untold pleasure to be had watching irate people in your mirror who are finding out that some people do stick to the limit on their favourite rat-run.

I’m all in favour of 20mph limits in residential – the road safety figures speak for themselves.

If your a pedestrian hit by a car at 30 you’ve a 7% chance of death, hit by a car at 20 it’s 1%…..

& driving at 20 or below is only ‘hard’ if your not used to it. Do you remember the sink kicked up by people when  rear seat belts became mandatory? This is the same.

2nd gear in a 20,

3rd in a 30.

🤷‍♂️

It’s pretty much being red lined especially if I’ve got the bikes/other people in the car

What on earth are you driving that is being redlined at 20mph in second?
And why does the number of people and bikes make a difference to the RPM in second?

Do you remember the sink kicked up by people when  rear seat belts became mandatory?

I’m older than that. 🙂

It’s pretty much being red lined especially if I’ve got the bikes/other people in the car

Your tachometer is out. i learned to drive in a 950cc Fiesta MK2 that would do about 25mph in first, 40 in second at the red line.

2nd gear in a 20,

3rd in a 30.

what if your car has 9 gears ?

what if your car has 9 gears ?

Then you’re only allowed to use the first 7 of them (unless you’re in Germany, etc.) 🙂

The 20 works OK when it is well implemented. Much of mid Wales has been done well, with 20 limits only applied through the middle of villages. North Wales (Denbighshire in particular) has, IMHO, been lazily done with 20 limits just replacing the old 30 in most cases. This means long stretches of 20 outside villages where there may be the odd house, but not a lot of foot traffic, etc. I can understand why people are frustrated in that sort of scenario.

I like the change that it has made to our village – there is less traffic noise, and it’s much more pleasant to walk near the main road. I do think that the guidelines need to be tweaked, though, to reduce the ‘dead’ areas.

I certainly haven’t found any cars impossible to drive at 20.

As I expected, we are seeing a new surge in whingeing about the 20mph limits as our lovely summer visitors from across the border encounter these for the first time.

Re to the above I think Cardiff has implemented it very well, hence why very few roads are expected to change, I did see a reply on a mate’s FB post from someone saying that a particular stretch of road in town should be 30mph and it’s ridiculous that it’s 20mph, only for my friend to point out that the stretch in question passes two schools and an old people’s home and is in a built up area for the whole of it ( Cardiff Rd from Fairwater Rd in to town), I think a lot of the anti 20mph crowd have no concept of travelling any other way than by car.

For me it’s mostly about how much more pleasant it is as a driver, cyclist and pedestrian, the whole city just seems a much calmer place and I have to say that as someone who’s family lost a child who was hit by a car at ( we think) around 30-35mph I can only hope that fewer families have to go through the devastation that caused, which ultimately lead to more than just the one death.

In both our cars it feels like it’s between gears, or the car just isn’t comfortable.

So you spend time watching the speedo trying to maintain 20 mph rather than eyes on the road.

At 20mph it doesnt take much throttle input to be exceeding the 7% over tolerance rule either going up a hill or then coasting back down the otherside.

Seriously, perhaps you could arrange a driving lesson or two to help you upskill. Consider it, for everyone’s sake.

How do those Dutch folk manage with 18mph limits everywhere in urban areas.  Do they have different cars?

They have the selfishness implant removed i think TJ

My experience visiting Wales, and with a couple of 20 zones that have appeared round here, is that it’s a mental shift that’s needed. Embrace it and it gets easier.

I honestly can’t see the fuss.

I was driving through the Borders last week, and most villages around there have a 20mph limit. No fuss, no fanfare, no wringing hands it’s just the speed limit.

So you observe it or risk a fine. No drama.

My car will not only do 20 on cruise but it won’t exceed whatever limit I select, no matter how steep the hill I’m going down.  My OH’s car though while it will cruise at 20 it will free-wheel past 20.  Same with the Limiter.

But, there’s a brake pedal that also enables me to slow down, does your car FunkyDunc have one of those too?

First car I had with cruise control didn’t work under 40kph, but my current cars do. And the Merc will also brake on descents to avoid going over. I never used to use the limiter but it’s pretty useful for 20mphs until you get used to it.

How do those Dutch folk manage with 18mph limits everywhere in urban areas.

Dutch? It’s most of europe. I live on a 30kph road (a steep dirt track). And i’m several hundred km from the nearest dutch speed limit!

Do they have different cars?

Nope. More bikes though.

Your tachometer is out.

Or the clutch is well on the way out…

And lots of older cars have quite high minimum speeds for cruise as they have more basic, probably non-ASIL compliant sensors in other systems. So they need to have some sort of control to make sure that the driver is present when cruise is active… And having a minimum speed for activation of 30-40-50 kph is a good control.

I was driving through the Borders last week, and most villages around there have a 20mph limit. No fuss, no fanfare, no wringing hands it’s just the speed limit.

There was plenty of fuss when it first came in, the council officer overseeing its implementation received threats of violence. There were the same ridiculous arguments about extra revving, spending too long looking at speedo, additional vibrations on roads (I know), getting distracted through boredom etc etc. But theses have all fizzled out to just a tiny and very vocal minority who are still ranting in Facebook comments. Everyone else is just getting on with it.

Its also worth saying that I have never had anyone over take me in a 20mph zone, despite it being in place here now for 3 years or so.

Seriously, perhaps you could arrange a driving lesson or two to help you upskill. Consider it, for everyone’s sake.

FFS I am fully in favour of 20mph and quite capable of driving at 20mphs

Try seeing it from the perspective of people who do not agree with 20mph, rather than the world just through your own eyes dont be such a narrow minded condescending person, for everyone’s sake.

And yes in one of my cars 20mph is awkward. The car is an automatic so I have no control of the gear. At 20mph it either sits relatively high in the rev range or too low, then it hunts between the 2 gears.

so you spend time watching the speedo trying to maintain 20 mph rather than eyes on the road.

I am fully in favour of 20mph and quite capable of driving at 20mphs

Which one is it?

And yes in one of my cars 20mph is awkward. The car is an automatic so I have no control of the gear. At 20mph it either sits relatively high in the rev range or too low,

Yes, that’s how autos work. What’s relatively high though (and low?), what are you expecting it to do, and why do you think it actually is too high/low? (And emissions/fuel consumption are determined by load not engine speed. Going from 1200/3rd to 1800/2nd with the same load will make 3/8ths of bugger all difference to consumption or emissions. The trade off being a minuscule amount of extra pumping losses with higher engine speed but slightly better combustion efficiency.) You need 3000+ rpm before it starts being significant or measurable outside of a test bed.

then it hunts between the 2 gears.

That’s inexcusable, with steady throttle input and steady load nothing more than about 15 years old should still be hunting  between gears. I mean, if you keep changing load or throttle input it will, obviously, change gear. It’ll be looking for the best gear for the job…  (I did some data collection on “anti hunting” algorithms in the early noughties. And it’s a standard/built in feature of most 6 and up speed boxes available now.)

Try seeing it from the perspective of people who do not agree with 20mph

I am – from what I can tell it seems that they are grumpy that they have to drive a bit slower.  Well, there is no moral framework in which your perceived inconvenience for a small distance outweighs the benefits of 20mph limits.  The only reason you think 30mph is reasonable is because that’s what you’re used to. Well, you can get used to 20.

For those saying they struggle to drive at 20mph due to whatever reason with the car etc, how do you manage to follow a cyclist whilst you wait for a convenient and safe space to overtake? and what about slow moving traffic in a jam.? We all have to drive at 20mph or less sometimes.

Just wondering.