20mph in Wales…..

But the diversion is only a small part of the route, and if many of the more open sections that were 30mph are now 20mph this will affect the time the bus takes to get around the route.

Yes, but the 20mph in that village was the reason cited for cutting the service to that village.  And anyway looking at the route it’s mostly open road anyway, we’re not talking about an urban bus service. Again, I think this is a politically motivated cut.

In the denser urban areas that are now 20mph it is pretty likely that the bus only managed around 20mph anyway.

Bingo.  So why would it be the disaster people are making it out to be?

In the north less exceptions have been applied for and made, so the bus is now stuck at 20mph on what many would say should be a 30mph road.

Then that’s the local council’s fault for not doing its job properly.

Is this some sort of joke

The density of entitled SUV drives must be the highest in the country and dwarfs Wales.  fortunately the buses tend to keep down the pace a bit too.

Manual, Alfa Guillietta cloverleaf.

Intrigued you are worried about an increase in pollution yet drive a car with higher than average pollution levels?

The density of entitled SUV drives must be the highest in the country and dwarfs Wales

Yes but entitled middle class pillocks are far less dangerous than roided up valleys boys 😄😄

It makes naff all difference to journey times, makes life more pleasant for the people living next to those roads, and might just save someone’s life. We’ve had it on most Bristol roads for ten years plus, the world hasn’t ended.

Intrigued you are worried about an increase in pollution yet drive a car with higher than average pollution levels?

Had the car for a while now, it’s emissions are 162g/km compared to the UK average of 138g/km but I only did 2.5k miles last year so if I bought a new car to significantly improve on C02 emissions at that rate of mileage I probably won’t ever pass break even over the CO2 cost of the new car.

Plus whoever bought the Alfa would probably do a higher mileage than me and therefore emit more, decreasing the benefit of me driving the lower CO2 emission car that I changed to. So by keeping it I am actually keeping the overall amount of CO2 emisions down 🙂

The Guardian seems to agree with me :

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/green-living-blog/2010/sep/23/carbon-footprint-new-car

“With this in mind, unless you do very high mileage or have a real gas-guzzler, it generally makes sense to keep your old car for as long as it is reliable – and to look after it carefully to extend its life as long as possible. If you make a car last to 200,000 miles rather than 100,000, then the emissions for each mile the car does in its lifetime may drop by as much as 50%, as a result of getting more distance out of the initial manufacturing emissions.”

The cars been reliable, only has 61k on the clock, has a very solid engine, so as long as the electrics hold up (…) I should be able to keep it going for a long while and bring the overall CO2 cost of it down.

if I bought a new car to significantly improve on C02 emissions at that rate of mileage I probably won’t ever pass break even over the CO2 cost of the new car.

You wouldn’t have to buy a new one, just swap for one of a similar age.  Maybe get one with a speed limiter function to help you with your 20mph problems.

You wouldn’t have to buy a new one, just swap for one of a similar age.  Maybe get one with a speed limiter function to help you with your 20mph problems.

still got the increased emissions from the buyer of my car who is highly likely to do more miles, so there will be a net increase in co2 emissions as my emissions are not reduced by much with my low mileage count, unless I scrap my car which would a strange thing to do considering its condition.

plus my car is pretty close to the average emission level of cars of that age anyway, so my choice of cars of that age that will get me a significant reduction in co2 emissions is small.

and I’ve got no issues sticking to 20mph personally, dynamic mode and a stick shift means I can drive in 3rd or 4th most of the time pretty easily, unlike a lot of the big automatic cars whose owners seem to moan about it the most.

and I’ve got no issues sticking to 20mph personally,

It sounds rather like you do.

Manual, Alfa Guillietta cloverleaf.

Not accelerating hard, I am ony really talking about having to crawl up a steep local hill in 20mph rather than crawling up it at 30mph, the mpg is lower at 20mph.

Actualy my car has a ‘dynamic’ setting which would normally take a mile or so from the mpg, but I have a feeling that it’s actually better in the 20mph zones as it is much more flexible at lower revs, meaning I can keep in a better gear ratio.

So only an ‘nth quicker (a bit of a second to 60 and about 7mph top-end) than my diesel BMW.  Mine has no issue going up at any speed up a steep hill (as it’s a 8-speed auto), it’ll also do it in cruise control AND it does almost twice the mpg.

Anything good about the car?

Anything good about the car?

yeah, its not a diesel BMW

Anything good about the car?

I have always had a hankering for an Alpha Romeo, after I have owned that Saab…. 👍

increasing restrictions on drivers ultra privileges to pollute and endanger are inevitable as societies become more aware of their negative consequences.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2024/jan/19/drivers-protest-as-bologna-becomes-first-italian-city-to-bring-in-30kmh-limit

Let’s be honest, most people speed a little bit and the default 20mph is really about getting drivers from doing somewhere around 35-40ish, which realistically seems the norm, to me anyway, down to around 25mph ish or hopefully lower, which makes life for non drivers much more pleasant and accidents involving pedestrians and cyclists far less serious and much more survivable, which it seems to have achieved ( the speeding bit, a bit too early for accident figures but I’m sure they’ll come as figures in Spain etc show).

I live in Cardiff and generally most people are sticking to 20mph or thereabouts (they have to if they’re behind me), many of the roads here have been 20mph for years anyway, my street for one, they’ve also been pretty good here about setting roads that merit it be 30mph etc, I never feel like I’m crawling along. I understand that some folk in other parts of Wales feel a bit frustrated as their councils haven’t been as quick to review the speed limits on non residential roads and feel that it’s been implemented in a clumsy way.

No mention of the state of the Welsh NHS while saying 30 million wasted is “cheap”. Speaks volumes. The elephant in the room remains. I’d bet more people are dying and suffering due to their neglect of the NHS than a dumb ill thought out speed limit change.

The elephant in the room is that if as successful as predicted that 30million is paid back several times over in the first year (plus the non-economic benefit that you’ve not got the breaved families etc).

“The authors estimated that as a result of introducing 20mph speed limits: • in terms of road traffic injuries, 6–10 lives would be saved and 1200–2000 casualties avoided each year, at a value of prevention of £58M–£94M.”

http://www.gov.wales/sites/default/files/publications/2019-08/the-state-of-the-evidence-on-20mph-speed-limits-with-regards-to-road-safety-active-travel-and-air-pollution-impacts-august-2018.pdf

Quoting from:

Jones, S., Brunt, H. 2017. Twenty miles per hour speed limits: a sustainable
solution to public health problems in Wales, Journal of Epidemiology and
Community Health, 71: pp.699–706. doi:10.1136/jech-2016-208859

From the Bologna article

“One worker told me he no longer has time to drive home for lunch, so has to make do with a sandwich,” added Spettoli. 🤣

It sounds rather like you do.

BS – show me where I’ve said that I have.

yeah, its not a diesel BMW

precisely.

Not really a fan of BMWs and certainly not franchised garages so I’ll stick with decent Alfa independants.

Also don’t really like how diesels drive, and I don’t do the sort of driving that is needed to clear the DPF anyway.

Oh, and I also do the carbon offset thing on the Shell app – which may or may not mean that I am carbon neutral on my emmisions.

So only an ‘nth quicker (a bit of a second to 60 and about 7mph top-end) than my diesel BMW

who cares, apart from many diesel drives who seem to like the acceleration

This Alfa is probably a lot slower than your diesel BMW but I wonder which is more fun to drive (not that I drive like mine that) ?

BS – show me where I’ve said that I have.

all the way thru this you have been making totally spurious objections to the 20 mph limit trying to use research that disproves your point. 

who cares

Schrodinger’s petrol heads apparently. Simultaneously you’ve managed to not drive much at all, but be massively inconvenienced by this. Worried about pollution, but not worried about the pollution. Not like how turbo-diesels drive (err… the ability to do pretty much any reasonable speed/gear/revs combination under load, that’s their torquey party trick), but complained you petrol engine can’t hold a steady 20mph up a hill.

I just drove down one of the aforementioned South Wales valleys from Hirwaun to Mountain Ash which is mostly built-up.  There was no more than half a mile of 20 at Pen y Waun and the rest was all 30 or more, even the bits through the towns.

I saw one idiot argue that a pedestrian hit at 30mph would have a better chance of survival than one hit at 20mph as they’d be more likely to bounce off the car and would likely go under it at 20mph, some of the arguments against are just ludicrous.

all the way thru this you have been making totally spurious objections to the 20 mph limit trying to use research that disproves your point.

whilst talking about emissions, not not being able to keep to 20mph.

but complained you petrol engine can’t hold a steady 20mph up a hill.

that’s more BS, I just said the research on emissions at 20mph relied on driving calmly, which isn’t the case when hills are involved as you use the accelerator more.

I’ve got bags of power and torque in my engine to ensure I can get up that hill easily. My second car was a diesel, and did you not read my comment about the DPF making a diesel impractical.

whilst talking about emissions, not not being able to keep to 20mph.

Which point was disproved by your link

Which point was disproved by your link

the one about changing gear early – it is not my fault that your comprehension skills are so lacking that you couldn’t understand the effects that changing gear early have

T^hats the one.  Yes changing gear early is good.  However it did not show what you claimed at all as you can still change up early and accelerate less aggressively at 20 mph.  so it proved the opposite of what you claimed

the one about changing gear early – it is not my fault that your comprehension skills are so lacking that you couldn’t understand the effects that changing gear early have

And you do know that the paper you quoted is completely irrelevant in the use case you are trying to apply it to?

Let’s be honest, most people speed a little bit and the default 20mph is really about getting drivers from doing somewhere around 35-40ish, which realistically seems the norm, to me anyway, down to around 25mph ish or hopefully lower,

In the Borders yesterday, where the 20mph limit has been there for 3 years now, I’d say 20% were doing the 20mph limit, and most others staying around 30mph. Like in some areas in Wales, the limit is applied where there are no houses around, with wide roads, so it is hard to see the point in the limit in those areas, and most ignore it, and carry on using 30mph.

ill bet those now doing 30 would be doing 40 if it were a 30 mph limit

T^hats the one. Yes changing gear early is good. However it did not show what you claimed at all as you can still change up early and accelerate less aggressively at 20 mph. so it proved the opposite of what you claimed

Not if you are driving up a steep hill – at 30mph you might have been able to change to 4th whereas at 20mph you wouldn’t – unless maybe you were driving a large BMW diesel but round here there are lots of Ford Ecosports, Vauxhall Adams and ‘normal’ cars that won’t be able to make that gear change and will therefore have a lower mpg and higher emissions.

The reports stating that fuel efficiency at 20mph is often as good or better as driving at 30mph are based on being able to drive calmly (and make those gear changes early), whereas in areas like here with lots of hills calm driving (and early gear changes) is not so easy.

Isn’t that why you would have 3rd gear?

If you go at 50 is your mpg even lower.  Surely you should have heard the phrase when you’re in a hole, stop digging

Like in some areas in Wales, the limit is applied where there are no houses around, with wide roads, so it is hard to see the point in the limit in those areas

Living in Wales, I have never seen or heard of this?

stop digging

Username checks out.

Like in some areas in Wales, the limit is applied where there are no houses around, with wide roads, so it is hard to see the point in the limit in those areas

Living in Wales, I have never seen or heard of this?

So there are areas in Wales with Wide roads, street lighting every x metres, yet no housing and a council that hasn’t chosen to apply the opt-out?

Well… that didn’t last too long.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-68859568

That was always the plan was it not?  Blanket  20mph then apply exemptions to 30mph on selected roads

Pretty much yes. I think as long as the 20mph sticks on residential streets and some sensitive spots like schools it will still be a success.

Swansea council leader Rob Stewart welcomed the change, but said the government must help foot the bill to swap signage.

Well if that was the plan all along, they don’t seem to have told the people implementing it. Looks to me like its gone from being a default 20mph with 30mph exceptions to just 20 mph in specific locations.

Looks to me like its gone from being a default 20mph with 30mph exceptions to just 20 mph in specific locations.

Not really. It’ll still be default 20 with a few exceptions for higher limits. That’s what happens in Bristol and from that article that sounds like the plan in Wales:

Mr Stewart added that he anticipated the changes to the policy could affect up to 10 roads in his own local authority.

Huw Thomas, leader of Cardiff council, said…. he “certainly can’t see many roads changing”.

Let’s me get this right.

The 20mph blanket in residential areas that local authorities could make exemptions for from the start is now allowing local authorities to make exemptions?

The town I live in is introducing 20mph through out the town, the signs have been gradually going up. The few seconds it’ll add to a person’s trip through the town will make little odds to their journey. Of course there’s been the usual moans on Facebook such as “It’s pointless you’re lucky to get over 10 mph through centre” and “This will only make the traffic worse”.

“blanket”. Someone’s sucked up the Tory propaganda!

This is a new minister trying to make it look like he’s changing something and thinking we’re too stupid to realise that it’s being changed into what it already is. If 20mph is ruining you and your neighbour’s lives (and it isn’t, is it?) you can make representations to your local authority and if you have a case it can be changed. Like you have always been able to do, under the same law, since the 1930s.