20mph in Wales…..

My average mpg now has dropped from just over 32mpg to around 28 mpg, which must mean more emmisions.

Probably because you’re accelerating harder, for longer coming out of a 20 into a 40/50/60 rather than coming out of a 30.  Accelerate less hard.

What car are you driving, and manual or auto?

My average mpg now has dropped from just over 32mpg to around 28 mpg, which must mean more emmisions.

I think I’d cry if I drove a vehicle with such a low mpg – combined longer journeys & thru London with plenty of 20mph zones & averaging a real world 57mpg (2015 ULEZ compliant diesel).

I give you some research results that are probably more rigorous than those by the RAC :

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/267202788_The_influence_of_gear_change_on_vehicle_exhaust_emissions_Calculations_with_the_vetess_emission_tool

Might be more rigorous, but completely pointless and talking about a different subject.

As far as i can tell, it’s linked to legislation called “Gear Shift Indication”. Because i’ve read a few reports like that before.

Once you add a load in (going up hill) slower (in the optimum gear) is more efficient.
It’s probably you rage accelerating out of every 20 limit. Or hitting first and WOT up every slight incline…

Drove down to Afan valley before Xmas last year, it makes sense for the limits to be 20mph because the villages have steep narrow roads with plenty of sharp bends, so you can’t really go bombing it round the place even if you wanted…. However, I noticed a few places where there was a straight road, a few houses and a 20mph limit lasting for about 1km, I didn’t have an issue as I wasn’t in a rush and just chatting away to a mate, but I can see how places like that it would be frustrating… In city centres and villages with steep inclines, tight roads, schools etc. it makes perfect sense.aybe some common sense in places that should be 20 and places that should be 30 would help….. I live on a 20mph road, and it makes sense for it to be 20mph (it’s a dead end, single width road with houses lined both sides).

Having a blanket “one size fits all” rule doesn’t fit with using some common sense.

Having a blanket “one size fits all” rule doesn’t fit with using some common sense.

Its a good place to start. If there are anomalies then those individual roads can be changed pretty simply. Much easier (an safer) to do it this way than the other.

Which is exactly what the legislation lays out.
Rather than push limits down on dangerous roads (which is what historically happens, pretty much everywhere) make everywhere nominally safer, then lift limits sensibly.

Speed cameras had similar (annoying) legislation in the start, was originally written to only put cameras in accident hotspots and “dangerous existing roads”. Then they started putting them on new roads. Can vaguely remember some hoo-haa about a camera on a brand new stretch of bypass in the mid 90s (Aylesbury maybe?). They had actually built the road, then decided it was dangerous (adding a camera) without any accident statistics or the road even being open… Now they add cmaeras where needed i.e. where ever idiots speed.

(FWIW, it *was* a dangerous road, long, straight, down hill, bad sightlines toon to an almost unsighted roundabout at the bottom. 60 limit. I could get to over 50 mph on my bike between the top of the hill and the camera location.)

However, I noticed a few places where there was a straight road, a few houses and a 20mph limit lasting for about 1km, I didn’t have an issue as I wasn’t in a rush and just chatting away to a mate, but I can see how places like that it would be frustrating

The issue here is that the few homes live only a km from the village and they would like to walk and cycle in more safety. So a 20mph will a) make that safer and b) encourage more folk to walk or cycle such short distances to pick up the milk and bread at the village shop

It’s funny hearing about all the moaning about the 20mph speed limit, kind of like people did when the smoking ban came in. Everyone will get used to it and it won’t even be a thing anymore.

Also, I was taught by my driving instructor back in 96 that you should not be going over 20mph where there is parked cars on either side pf the road or when on a narrow windy road in a built up area. Makes sense to me.

Which is exactly what the legislation lays out.

And it makes sense to use this approach if it is applied competently and consistently, but that hasn’t been the case. Here in Swansea we have 20mph roads that still have 30mph signs because the paint that was sprayed over the 30 has washed away. The main road through from Killay, on the west side, is 30mph for most of it’s length, while the same type of main road through Cockett is 20mph. Coming from Penclawdd you come out of a 40mph, into a few 100 metres stretch of 30mph, then turning left at a junction 20mph for 150m, back up to 30mph, then NSL about 300m later. The 20mph sign at the left turn is exactly on the 90 degree turn and positioned so that you need a sunroof to see it. A short distance away from here there is a 20mph sign on a farm track so rutted that you can’t do over 10 mph in a car.

Having said that, my gripe is that the quiet roads that I’ve always used for commuting on the bike are now so busy and dangerous with people trying to avoid the ‘slow’ main roads that I have stopped riding to work this week. I’ve had too many incidents since Xmas.

I’ve found that riding a road bike in a 20mph area to still be an unpleasant thing at times. Car drivers still try to overtake for some reason despite me riding at 20mph, so I can end up passing the car back in traffic only for them to overtake again a bit further along. 

It’s a good place to start. If there are anomalies then those individual roads can be changed pretty simply. Much easier (an safer) to do it this way than the other.

Could, but when did a council last raise a speed limit anywhere?

I can end up passing the car back in traffic only for them to overtake again a bit further along. 

That happens all the time if you ride in traffic anyway, because even in 30mph limits the traffic isn’t always doing 30mph.  For the record I’ve had a lot more people waiting behind me, especially those who are turning off soon.

Could, but when did a council last raise a speed limit anywhere?

Well most of the main routes in Cardiff have been raised to 30 from the now default 20, but clearly the situation has changed – defaults were in the past too high so they lowered rather than raised – it’s the other way round now, at least in built up areas.

Having a blanket “one size fits all” rule doesn’t fit with using some common sense.

It’s not a blanket rule. It’s the default.  Councils can’t consider every road and they can’t signpost every road.  Given that in towns and cities the smaller roads are by far the most numerous, it makes sense for the default to suit them and only the bigger roads need evaluating to see if the limit needs raising.

@mert

down hill

Definitely not Aylesbury then 🤣

Definitely not Aylesbury then 🤣

:D Quite probably not, just looked at a map… All i can remember is riding along the (unopened) then opened bypass probably a couple of dozen times in the space of 18 months when i used to visit the area. Then it being all over the (local) news and the cameras being covered by the operators.

For the record I’ve had a lot more people waiting behind me, especially those who are turning off soon.

This – sure speeding idiots are still speeding idiots but since the 20 mph limits came in here I have far less unnecessary overtakes and more cars prepared to wait behind me.  Its more pleasant to cycle

Scottish Borders. A year or two ago. We also have blanket 20 limits in towns and villages. A few (like parts of the A7 through the town I live in) got lifted to 30’s after the things had settled down.

Could, but when did a council last raise a speed limit anywhere?

Why would they? Many of the prior limits were too high anyway. A lot of them still are.

So this bus route thing: I did a bit of reading. Looks like the Arriva X51 bus used to leave the main road and drive half a mile through the village of Llandegla before presumably turning round and going back. So one extra mile, which, even if  driven at a constant 20 would take 3 minutes vs 2 minutes at 30mph. So one minute extra on a route of around 75 mins. However, the street in the village looks like this

https://maps.app.goo.gl/Sfetrttwg3dVW4Vi7

So no bus should be going anywhere near 30 down there. Plus it has to stop and turn around, so it was probably a 5 min detour before and is probably still a 5 min detour now. Looks to me like the bus company wanted to make some savings anyway and is run by a Tory who wanted to use it as an excuse to have a pop at the WG.

Anyone who says that the 20mph limit in wales is ‘blanket’ has been brainwashed by Andrew RT Davies and the idiot who does his Tweets and social media for him. RT is using the speed limit as political octopus ink.  I suspect someone is pulling his strings as he’s too daft to do it himself.

mattconway1984
Free Member

Having a blanket “one size fits all” rule doesn’t fit with using some common sense.

There has to be a default. Whether it’s 20 or 30 or 50 or 70, there has to be one, you can’t say that “doesn’t fit with using some common sense”

I know it’s been said over and over but this is the only thing this change does, it makes the default 20. There was a default before, there’ll always be a default, every road that isn’t at that default has always been specifically chosen to not be at the default and always will, because that’s literally the only way it can be.

Just that now it’s 20, making it much easier for towns and villages to be at 20 instead of 30.

combined longer journeys & thru London with plenty of 20mph zones & averaging a real world 57mpg (2015 ULEZ compliant diesel).

What car is this?  We have a 2012 1.6 diesel that will, at best, return about 51mpg when driven like grandma on a 30 mile motorway trip never exceeding 68mph! Taking town driving into account it gets about 45 overall.

I’ve found that riding a road bike in a 20mph area to still be an unpleasant thing at times

Love them. I just rode in the centre of the lane at 30-35 km/h and point to the 20’s painted on the road when beeped. 32.6 km/h is 20 mph and that’s the speed limit. Suck it up.

There has to be a default

I agree there has to be a default. In all other areas of our laws the presumption is that we can do as we like when we like unless it is excluded by legislation. It’s at the heart of living in a free country. So why should the default for driving be different. If it was consistent with the rest of legislative system then the default would be you can travel at any speed you like unless legislation says otherwise,  Not you are restricted unless given permission to do something.

Legislation sets the speed limit on all roads without explicit limits. Has done since since the 1960s.

Love them. I just rode in the centre of the lane at 30-35 km/h and point to the 20’s painted on the road when beeped. 32.6 km/h is 20 mph and that’s the speed limit. Suck it up.

You don’t live anywhere as aggressively working class as south Wales, though, do you? I can guarantee that you’d do for about two days before a roided-up bloke in a BMW or Audi took offence and decided to teach you where you should be riding, in his opinion.

Legislation sets the speed limits. Has done since the 1960s.

and so it should. My point is the default in this country is you can do what you like unless legislation stops it. This works on the opposite of that. It restricts what you can do as the default and then gives permission to enhance your choices.

and so it should

I’m glad you agree.

My point is the default in this country is you can do what you like unless legislation stops it.

All driving on public roads is legislated. Just like all shooting is. Or all crane operating is. For much the same reasons.

It restricts what you can do as the default and then gives permission to enhance your choices.

The 20mph default in urban areas in Wales is just like the 30mpg default in urban areas in England. Do you object to that as well?

You don’t live anywhere as aggressively working class as south Wales, though, do you?

You haven’t ridden through Hounslow and Ealing :D . My rear camera will record the perps in either locale. The most likely difference is that large swathes of West London are now 20 mph, so the opportunities for 30+ are few and far between. Had a few aggressive drivers, but they don’t get very far in the traffic before being caught.

You haven’t ridden through Hounslow and Ealing 😀 

Plenty of times – I used to live in the Richmond/Kingston areas.

My point is the default in this country is you can do what you like unless legislation stops it. This works on the opposite of that. It restricts what you can do as the default

Yes, and for a bloody good reason. As has already been pointed out, we’ve had speed limits since 1861 so the 20mph default is not the fundamental legal change you seem to think it is.

You’re not making sense anyway – you say that in the UK you can do anything unless legislation prevents it – yes, but speed limits are exactly that legislation.

You don’t live anywhere as aggressively working class as south Wales, though, do you? I can guarantee that you’d do for about two days before a roided-up bloke in a BMW or Audi took offence and decided to teach you where you should be riding, in his opinion.

and that’s my point – bringing the limit down on so many roads that are monitored by cameras, etc, has some effect for law abiding citizens but not much for the many such drivers in south wales and the valleys, and even for the abiding citizen speeds seems to have crept back up to closer to 30.

It’s been said that proscecutions are only going to be for over 26mph, in 30mph areas where there’s a speed camera speeds drop to probably 28mph, so not much different.

I still think it would have been a much better use of the money to put up speed cameras in areas that were actual accident hot spots, more pedestrian crossings and cameras catching anyone jumping red lights on pedestrian crsossings – zebra crossings being more of a problem.

There were already many 20mph zones around with existing signage.

I am also in favour of more unmarked police cars, and don’t really see why speed cameras have to be made so visible, surely that just reduces their effectiveness?

It’s not blanket.  It was done to make the streets safer, more pleasant and more useable for active travel.  It is a very small step in the direction of redressing the balance between car use and other travel modes. Wales is generally heavily car dominated (some exceptions exist)  and for a small place with a low population has pretty awful air quality and health outcomes.  Its levels of cycling are woeful and transport poverty is a real issue. The idea that the only places that need 20mph limits are outside schools  misses the point that people aren’t just impacted by cars outside schools.  We need change well beyond the 20mph law… but this was cheap and easy to do so is a first step.

Those problems you quote as facts are all solvable and in many cases the 20mph limit is being used  as a pretext for doing something that they already wanted or planned to do.

in reality, the limit makes little difference for most drivers beyond losing them a maximum of 1min per mile of new 20mph limit. In many cases it’s much less.

It is blanket where I live in the north. Every single 30 has been changed to a 20mph. The fact remains its been put in some really stupid places that makes no sense – which means no thought has gone into it because it cannot possibly have done, which in turn must mean its blanket.

I didn’t say it was only needed outside schools.

If 30 million is cheap when the government is whinging about lack of money from Westminster and every council is making cuts and crying “we’re skint” then god forbid what else they’ll waste money on cheaply.

Also whilst i’m here it isn’t even a 20mph limit. Because the police have said you’ll only get prosecuted for 26mph and above or 27mph – can’t recall which. Which is in itself a joke.

No mention of the state of the Welsh NHS while saying 30 million wasted is “cheap”. Speaks volumes. The elephant in the room remains. I’d bet more people are dying and suffering due to their neglect of the NHS than a dumb ill thought out speed limit change.

Not because of a default 20mph limit unless otherwise signposted…

Yes thats what is being blamed. Keep up.

I live in the Scottish Borders and we’ve had 20mph in place for a over three years now. In all of that time, I have never heard a single man, or his dog, use the speed limit as an excuse to cancel or be late for anything. Taxi’s are still running (mostly driven by drivers who predicted end of the world when the 20mph came into force). I am almost certain that no bus routes have been cancelled for any reason other than budgets. Rather than being stranded, villages are exactly as they were before, just with slightly slower traffic passing through. Fact (actual real Fact from real world lived experience)

Thats what Arriva Wales are saying. Thats what local taxi drivers are saying. So it is fact. Read the local welsh news if you don’t believe me.

So all that you put is completely irrelevant. This is about Wales. Not Scotland. And I said in my post that when 20mph was brought in years ago in sensible places no one moaned. Before you respond to a post try reading it first eh?

Probably because you’re accelerating harder, for longer coming out of a 20 into a 40/50/60 rather than coming out of a 30. Accelerate less hard.

What car are you driving, and manual or auto?

Manual, Alfa Guillietta cloverleaf.

Not accelerating hard, I am ony really talking about having to crawl up a steep local hill in 20mph rather than crawling up it at 30mph, the mpg is lower at 20mph.

Actualy my car has a ‘dynamic’ setting which would normally take a mile or so from the mpg, but I have a feeling that it’s actually better in the 20mph zones as it is much more flexible at lower revs, meaning I can keep in a better gear ratio.

As an aside, why are the speed limits in urban areas marked with 20/30mph signs when, as they are national speed limits, they could have used the ‘white circle with a black diagonal line running through it’ sign instead?

If this had been the case the wouldn’t have had to spent so much money, just announced that the national speed limit for urban areas was changing and then put new signs up on the exception roads.

Thats what Arriva Wales are saying.

Yeah but look a bit deeper. This a political issue, and a grumpy whiner issue, and as with all such issues there is more to it than you might think at first.  Read my earlier post and have a look at what the actual diversion is.

You don’t live anywhere as aggressively working class as south Wales, though, do you?

You haven’t ridden through Hounslow and Ealing

Is this some sort of joke I am not getting? The mean streets of Ealing 😱😱😱😱

Yeah but look a bit deeper. This a political issue, and a grumpy whiner issue, and as with all such issues there is more to it than you might think at first. Read my earlier post and have a look at what the actual diversion is.

But the diversion is only a small part of the route, and if many of the more open sections that were 30mph are now 20mph this will affect the time the bus takes to get around the route.

In the denser urban areas that are now 20mph it is pretty likely that the bus only managed around 20mph anyway.

In south wales there have been more exceptions applied for, so more open roads that were NSL 30 and would have become NSL 20 have been ‘corrected’ back to a more free flowing 30mph. In the north less exceptions have been applied for and made, so the bus is now stuck at 20mph on what many would say should be a 30mph road.