20mph in Wales…..

I live in a village in coastal Ceredigion and I love it.

Entitled, self centred, pr!cks still blast past the village school at 40mph, even at drop off time so I’d love to see more cameras and speed bumps.

It’s not blanket.  It was done to make the streets safer, more pleasant and more useable for active travel.  It is a very small step in the direction of redressing the balance between car use and other travel modes. Wales is generally heavily car dominated (some exceptions exist)  and for a small place with a low population has pretty awful air quality and health outcomes.  Its levels of cycling are woeful and transport poverty is a real issue. The idea that the only places that need 20mph limits are outside schools  misses the point that people aren’t just impacted by cars outside schools.  We need change well beyond the 20mph law… but this was cheap and easy to do so is a first step. 

Those problems you quote as facts are all solvable and in many cases the 20mph limit is being used  as a pretext for doing something that they already wanted or planned to do. 

in reality, the limit makes little difference for most drivers beyond losing them a maximum of 1min per mile of new 20mph limit. In many cases it’s much less.

Bus routes cancelled and villages left stranded. Fact.

Not because of a default 20mph limit unless otherwise signposted…

As a result every man and his dog now uses this as an excuse to be late or to cancel. Some are justified some probably not. But if you haven’t walked in these people shoes you won’t really know.

Taxis have been hit. Bus routes cancelled and villages left stranded. Fact.

I live in the Scottish Borders and we’ve had 20mph in place for a over three years now. In all of that time, I have never heard a single man, or his dog, use the speed limit as an excuse to cancel or be late for anything. Taxi’s are still running (mostly driven by drivers who predicted end of the world when the 20mph came into force). I am almost certain that no bus routes have been cancelled for any reason other than budgets. Rather than being stranded, villages are exactly as they were before, just with slightly slower traffic passing through. Fact (actual real Fact from real world lived experience)

Had a holiday in Wales and loved the 20mph limits, once I’d adjusted. So much easier as a driver, so much nicer as a pedestrian with cars going 2/3 the speed.

Couple of stretches in Nottingham and Cambridge I’ve driven recently with 20mph, make so much sense in an built up area.

Not because of a default 20mph limit unless otherwise signposted…

Actually it is – trying reading their reasoning for adjusting the route and the action the government is taking:

Welsh Government is reviewing 20mph limit’s effect on buses

We had a holiday a couple weeks ago in Wales, absolutely loved the 20mph limit. Wish it would roll out across the rest of the UK….

I live in the Scottish Borders 

Me too, and totally support the 20mph limits.

IME what it’s meant is that the majority of drivers rather than driving over 30 as they use to in the 30 limits now drive below 30 in the 20 limits.   There is still a large number that drive at 40 in the 60 limits (we’ve an older population), but they don’t continue at 40 in the 20’s as they use to in the 30’s.

On social media I do remind folk having a pop at Labour for the Welsh 20’s that we’ve a Tory controlled council here who implemented our 20 limits.  Funny how the OP’s never respond – which leads me to believe that they’re Bot’s and the like.

Arriva cutting out stops due to speed limits? Any excuse to drop low use/profit bits of routes.

They’ve got this hard-on for looking like they are “saving peoples lives” however they completely direct it to the wrong place, then ignore and trot out excuses for the huge elephant in the room. The state of the NHS in Wales.

Yeah, why make roads safer when you can have better hospitals?

Patch ’em up and back on the racetrack, Mad Max stylee.

It was my first trip to Wales since the 20mph speed limit was introduced. It was absolutely fine but there were plenty of people driving 30-35mph in the 20mph zones which was really noticeable. I got tail gated a fair bit.

There were some oddities where roads were lined with 20mph/30mph/40mph changes and some real strange speed limit signage positioning which you can tell from the blanket way the new signage was introduced. For one instance as you come out of the village where my in-laws lived it’s 20mph for quite a while past the houses (which is fine) and then a 100m 20-30mph zone then a 40mph zone. The 40mph zone starts at a  bend  which has loads of accidents since there a blind get out. Why didnt them extent the 30mph zone?

Also as a road cyclist. The Welsh pot holes are terrible!

I’ve read that some bus services (well, one) have been cut…i don’t understand why when the bus companies control the timetable – surely they can just tweak the timetable to allow an extra few minutes?

Pretty obvious a cycling forum would approve and fair enough. But real world here in Wales it’s hugely unpopular, I’ve yet to actually speak to anyone who drives a significant amount who is in favour. If you only make a few journeys in heavy traffic you won’t notice any difference, but if you drive a lot, especially in quieter areas or less busy times of the day it makes a significant difference to journey times. Once out of Cardiff it’s largely ignored, driving through the valleys the vast majority of signs have been painted out along with fixed cameras.
The idiots driving past schools at 40mph will still do it along with all the rest of their dangerous driving. Social media rednecks blame cyclists in part, so anti cycling sentiments have increased. Figures used to justify the policy are increasingly being shown to be flawed (accident statistics from Spain taken during lock down restrictions). The amounts quoted on money the NHS will save are the Welsh labour parties own £350 million on the side of a bus.

Pretty obvious a cycling forum would approve and fair enough. But real world here in Wales it’s hugely unpopular, I’ve yet to actually speak to anyone who drives a significant amount who is in favour. If you only make a few journeys in heavy traffic you won’t notice any difference, but if you drive a lot, especially in quieter areas or less busy times of the day it makes a significant difference to journey times. Once out of Cardiff it’s largely ignored, driving through the valleys the vast majority of signs have been painted out along with fixed cameras.

Most of the people i know who were vehemently opposed are now “meh”. The opponents make more noise than the supporters or those who don’t care. It’s not largely ignored outside Cardiff….god knows where you got that from.
I drove from Gower to the north of Anglesey, and it made sod all difference.

Most of the people i know who were vehemently opposed are now “meh”. 

Fair enough we obviously know different people. But don’t live in an echo chamber and a long distance journey on main trunk roads isn’t typical of most journeys. I have my experiences which I’ve shared. Don’t dismiss then because yours are different.

Most of the people I know who were vehemently opposed are now “meh”.

That’s because they are driving round at 26mph as that’s what has become known as the limit they will proscute at.

But if they had instead spent that £34.4 million on putting up more speed cameras in the pedestrian areas/accident hotspots that are now 20mph then they would actually have caught the speeding cars that are doing greater than 33mph, rather than now just having most people doing 26mph and still have the dangerous speeding cars that are unlikely to be caught withput further massive expenditure.

And I am guessing any claims on emissions are void in certain areas where you now have cars struggling to climb steep hills at slow speeds.

As a result every man and his dog now uses this as an excuse to be late or to cancel. Some are justified some probably not. But if you haven’t walked in these people shoes you won’t really know.

Taxis have been hit. Bus routes cancelled and villages left stranded. Fact.

I live in Edinburgh which has 20mph limits as default.  As the research shows traffic flows do not decrease, journey times do not go up because traffic flows better, taxis and buses still run

I do 30k miles a year and, as I posted earlier, I live in fairly rural wales  but drive all over and still stick to my opinion that it’s brilliant.

“And I am guessing any claims on emissions are void in certain areas where you now have cars struggling to climb steep hills at slow speeds”

Again – complete nonse4nse proven to be false

if you drive a lot, especially in quieter areas or less busy times of the day it makes a significant difference to journey times.

It feels like it does, but it doesn’t.  Because it only affects suburban streets on which your average speed was nowhere near 30mph anyway.  In a typical Valleys town the through road is lined with parked cars on both sides so you spend half your time sat waiting for someone to come the other way single file – where 20 is entirely appropriate. On the more open bits where the houses are further apart and you need to get somewhere, they’re 30 or 40.

Everyone says ‘I don’t mind 20mph where it’s appropriate’  well, me too – and 20mph is appropriate on residential streets.

a long distance journey on main trunk roads isn’t typical of most journeys.

No but i drive round Gower and Swansea most days and it makes sod all difference to my journey times.

And I am guessing any claims on emissions are void in certain areas where you now have cars struggling to climb steep hills at slow speeds.

The only way that could be true is if the drivers are too stupid to change gear.

And I am guessing any claims on emissions are void in certain areas where you now have cars struggling to climb steep hills at slow speeds.

Hahahaha.

You just undermined any reasonable discussion with that incorrect gem….

Happy to be corrected but it hasn’t cost £30 odd million, but will cost that over the decade or so it takes to switch out and change the signage, etc.

Seeing as a single road incident involving a fatality ends up costing a million quid if you can save three lives you’ll be quids in, nevermind reducing all the heartache.

Very interesting thread from a Wales Online reporter about the astroturfing around the anti-20 limit Facebook groups:

https://x.com/WillHayCardiff/status/1746942241950560337?t=i8hWr4l2xh-WNA9N-TSvsA&s=09

TL;DR it’s English Tories who support their own 20 limits while rabble rousing in Wales. 🤣

Again – complete nonse4nse proven to be false

It’s been proven that emmissions are the same no matter what gear you are in ? Please show me that research.

The only way that could be true is if the drivers are too stupid to change gear.

too stupid to attempt to drive up a hill in a gear than is going to stall the engine ?

too stupid to use the lowest gear possible in order to save fuel ? In an area of low incomes ?

Before you cuold drive up the hill in third but now you will be using second, hence higher emmisions.

Before you could drive up the hill in third but now you will be using second, hence higher emmisions.

So in your wold a car a 2000rpm in seco0nd at 20 mph creates more emissions that at 2000rpm at 30 mph in 3rd?

Slowert speeds = less fuel burnt = less emissions.  the RAC tried to prove your po9int and infact proved it wrong

Happy to be corrected but it hasn’t cost £30 odd million, but will cost that over the decade or so it takes to switch out and change the signage, etc.

£34.4 million according to a BBC report, that is quoted on a parliamentary web page :

https://commonslibrary.parliament.uk/research-briefings/cdp-2023-0214/

and £32 million quoted on the Welsh government web page :

https://www.gov.wales/introducing-20mph-speed-limits-frequently-asked-questions

Pretty sure most of the signage has now been changed…

Before you cuold drive up the hill in third but now you will be using second, hence higher emmisions.

Assuming travelling at the same speed. Which you said they are not.

Before you cuold drive up the hill in third but now you will be using second, hence higher emmisions

Wtaf? 😂

Slowert speeds = less fuel burnt = less emissions. the RAC tried to prove your po9int and infact proved it wrong

I give you some research results that are probably more rigorous than those by the RAC :

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/267202788_The_influence_of_gear_change_on_vehicle_exhaust_emissions_Calculations_with_the_vetess_emission_tool

On the one hand it can be kind of reassuring that so many of the arguments against 20mph limits are absolute made up nonsense- if that’s the best people can do as a counterargument, it’s a fantastic argument for switching to 20mph in general.

On the other hand, they’ve still proved to be really effective despite being made up nonsense, which is a problem not just for speed limits but for literally everything.

Anyway, still very happy in my 20mph town which has been 20mph for years and which literally nobody wants to turn back from being 20mph.

gravedigger – I suggest you read that – it has nothing to do with 20 mph limits – its about what revs you change gear at.  Zero relevance

. CONCLUSIONSTheoretical speed profiles were used to assess the impact of gear change on vehicle exhausts of two vehicletypes by using the VeTESS emission tool. The results clearly show that both the Euro III diesel car and theEURO IV petrol car can reduce the emissions of CO2 (and fuel consumption) when shifting up gear early. The same findings apply to CO and HC, but cannot be made for NOx and PM. The large uncertainty ensuing from difficulties in the PM measurement can be the cause of these variations but needs to be studiedthoroughly before drawing conclusions.Since this study dealt with theoretical, non-realistic speed profiles the real impact of an improved gearchanging behaviour on emissions could not be quantified. The use of real life driving cycles with informationon gear choice will improve these assessments offering useful information to policy makers who aim atpromoting an environmentally friendly driving behaviour. Future research should therefore include largescale monitoring programs to gain more insight into this matter. In 2007 a travel survey will be initiated inFlanders (Belgium) as a part of the research project “An activity based approach for surveying and modellingtravel behaviour”. The analysis of these data will hopefully provide more information on the problem of gearchanging behaviour and emissions.

“This will cost roughly £32.5 million between 2022-2027”

Ok, maybe not a decade then…biggest chunk spent in the first couple of years for the hardware.

gravedigger – I suggest you read that – it has nothing to do with 20 mph limits – its about what revs you change gear at. Zero relevance

“can reduce the emissions of CO2 (and fuel consumption) when shifting up gear early.”

yes, shifting up early means you are out of that less efficient gear as soon as possible, into a more efficient gear which will have a better mpg and therefore you will produce less emmissions over your journey as your mpg will be better – as co2 emmisions are generally about constant per gallon of fuel.

My mpg going up that local hill at 20mph in second is a lot worse than my mpg going up that hill at 30mph in third, hence more fuel used per journey, hence more emmisions.

My average mpg now has dropped from just over 32mpg to around 28 mpg, which must mean more emmisions.

Most of the studies showing that mpg isn’t meaningfully impacted by the 20mph zone are based on the fact that you are driving steadily, and it is easy to keep your mpgs up, especially if they are displayed on your car.

However the presense of significantly steep hills somewhat buggers this up.

Most of the studies showing that mpg isn’t meaningfully impacted by the 20mph zone are based on the fact that you are driving steadily, and it is easy to keep your mpgs up

Its actually the opposite but never mind.

Its actually the opposite but never mind.

So it is the opposite then, so 20mph zones are a bad thing, right?

not according to the 20 is plenty site;

https://www.20splenty.org/do_emission_increase#:~:text=Many%20people%20think%20that%20driving,fuel%20consumption%20better%20than%2090mpg.

Or the Welsh government:

https://www.gov.wales/introducing-20mph-speed-limits-frequently-asked-questions#:~:text=Will%20driving%20at%2020mph%20mean,health%20%7C%20Guidance%20%7C%20NICE).

Or the ethical choice website:

https://www.eta.co.uk/2023/05/05/myth-busters-20mph-speed-limits/

Or a German report quoted by the Guardian;

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2010/apr/19/ask-leo-20mph-speed-limits-pollution

(Which also quotes a report that speed bumps should be removed as they cause increased emissions).

So what are you basing your statement on ? Anything factual ?

Yeah – as above – the Will Hayward/Wales Online investigation

So I have been having a little look at the people who run some of the Welsh anti-20mph Facebook groups.

It seems that many of them a run by Tory politicians…. who live in England….and support 20mph where they live….

Let's go on a journey (at a very safe speed).

[Thread]

— Will Hayward (@WillHayCardiff) January 15, 2024

the social media campaign against Wales deciding it’s own speed limits being organised by Tory councillors under the pretence of being a grassroots campaign is pretty grim stuff. – (CowbridgeAnalytica as some wag described it)

Real “Shut up Taffy – know your place” stuff

it does also highlight the fracture in Tory party in Wales quite dramatically too – how it’s pivoted from a pro devolution centerist wing of the party – to a fairly hard right wing anti devolution party under RT’s recent leadership – running campaigns from England against what Welsh tory members in Senedd were actually endorsing up until a few months ago.

Arrogant little englanders trying to lord it up over Wales and Scotland are a bigger threat to “the union” than any party or organisation in Scotland or Wales

So it is the opposite then, so 20mph zones are a bad thing, right?

No – if you pick the right car you can show higher fuel usage at 20mph than 30 mph at a constant speed.  However once you take into account real drivingh conditions ie slowing and accelerating then 20mph reduces emissions

Once again do you bother to read your links?  the first one backs my point and refutes yours

So, the mechanics and physics are quite clear. Smoother driving to a lower limit will always require less energy, less fuel and produce fewer emissions than repeatedly accelerating to a higher limit.

20 mph limits reduce pollution, reduces pedestrian casualties without any significant increase in journey times even reducing them sometimes as traffic flows better

And if you read the article, you get to the real reason:

This service is already operating at a low frequency and there is no funding to support increased resource going into services so we have had to amend the route with the time saved by not operating in the village.

It’s lack of funding. That’s what I was alluding to. You could have as many busses as you want, regardless of speed limit, if you were able to fund public transport properly. Dont let the right wing pull the wool over your eyes. And yes, I know Wales is Labour run but it gets its funding from Westminster.

MPG and emissions: the improvement in both these areas may take a while to realise but it will come due to modal shift and reduced traffic as car dominance is reduced.  This will take more than speed limits but the 20mph introduction is the first step in the right direction. 

I think that Welsh Govt stated that the change will be emissions and air quality neutral at the same volume of traffic. Any loss in fuel economy at constant driving at a lower speed will also be balanced by reduced consumption as cars don’t cycle from 0 to 30 in stop start traffic.  

But the limits are here now so any move to remove them will seem regressive.