20mph in Wales…..

Down in Llanberis last week, no issues whatsoever.
You’d have to be a bit of an arsehole to be doing more than 20 driving through Deiniolen or Dinorwic anyway.

The only bit we really noticed was through the centre of Llanrug – bloody good idea tbh, it made me far more aware of the difference in how we percieve places in a car rather than on a bike.
We cycle through Llanrug quite often and on a bike you notice things that you ignore in a car at 30.
That drop to 20 gives you much more time to process your surroundings.
It removes the disconnect between you as a driver and the enviroment you’re passing through.

That drop to 20 gives you much more time to process your surroundings.

I found that whilst driving around central London for the first time in about 20 years. Apart from that there Hyde Park Corner roundabout, it’s just less stressful to get around (IMO of course 😁)

The irritating thing about this is the UK is that for 20mph limits to work properly it needs more than just road signs posting a limit.  the roads need to be re-engineered to get the full benefit including weirdly removing traffic lights.  At 20 mph car drivers then need to cooperate not be in conflict and then traffic flows actually increase because instead of going 0-30-0 cars go 10-20-10  ( to over simplify

So once again half arsed from various UK governments local and national

It removes the disconnect between you as a driver and the enviroment you’re passing

or in other words it means you aren’t fully concentrating on the road. 😕

That drop to 20 gives you much more time to process your surroundings.

When it was implemented round here a few years ago, the pasty Daily Mail brigade were exposing themselves on Facebook as dangerous drivers. One of the regular claims they made was that the slower speed limit meant they got bored, so spent more time looking around at tress and stuff and therefore more likely to hit a pedestrian or cyclist.

They walk (drive) amongst us………

The other bogus excuse I have heard is “20 mph is more dangerous as you have to watch the speedo all the time”  as if its any differnt to 30 mph in that regard.

Personally I would like tosee real zero tolerance for road traffic violations – either car drivers would change they behaviour of be banned in a week

Controlling your speed is one thing, remembering the limit is another when there isn’t necessarily a repeater to remind you

It’s easy now in Wales – if you don’t see a sign, but you do see streetlights – do 20.

So once again half arsed from various UK governments local and national

Right but redoing every suburban road in Wales would cost a fair bit and take a long time, whereas the default 20 limit is a start and a lot easier and cheaper.

They have re-done some main roads though, here in Cardiff, starting a while back.

Personally I would like tosee real zero tolerance for road traffic violations – either car drivers would change they behaviour of be banned in a week

After driving trough Biggar in the 20mph zone and being flashed the entire way by a bloke a in Tesla riding my bumper, I can get behind this, but in loads of ways I reckon it would be as counter-productive as it would be unenforceable. 

I just think we need to legislate that new cars only work to geofenced speedlimits.  They seem to have been able to make hire e-scooters to only work in certain locations.  Lets do the same with cars, set limiters based on location, and no way to override it unless you are something like the emergency services.  Sure its going to take a few years to be implemented and longer to roll out, but from what I’ve seen of the driving public sticking at 20 road sign up seems to make bugger all difference

I just think we need to legislate that new cars only work to geofenced speedlimits

Having driven a brand new Volvo which appeared to have a combo of geolocated & camera activated speed limits popping up on the dash, all I can say is that I’m glad I was in control of the actual speed & could activate the speed limiter when I wanted to.

I’m still struggling that this has anything more than a passing political stunt to with road safety.

According to government figures analysed by the RAC foundation 1711 died in RTA in 2022. Of which 44% were in the vehicle involved in the accident. Only 7% of accidents had exceeding the speed limit as a factor in reported accidents.

56% of fatalities in reported road accidents had driver or rider error or reaction (which includes failing to look properly, loss of control and poor turn or manoeuvre) reported as a contributory factor leading to the accident.

21% not wearing their seatbelts, which might explain why 44% of those who do die in traffic accidents are in the car involved in the accident.

https://www.racfoundation.org/motoring-faqs/safety#:~:text=At%20least%20one%20of%20exceeding,per%20cent%20of%20all%20fatalities.

It them goes on to say that 59% of fatalities are on rural roads, so not even cover3d by these new speed limits. 

So according to the governments own analysis speeding is not the issue it is made out to be and they are actually ignoring the real cause of fatal accidents. That le2ads to the question of why aren’t they focusing on the major causes and locations?

That’s an awful lot of words you used to not talk about what is actually being discussed here.

I don’t think reducing speed limits from 30 to 20 is going to do much, if anything, to reduce the number of fatalities and injuries suffered by vehicle occupants.  So you are right, in that respect.

But like I said, this is a different discussion.

You are ignoring the other bits though.

20mile an hour zones are much more pleasant places to be.

The feel safer. They are quieter. The standards of driving feel better.

For reference I live in Peebles within sight of a NSL sign. Previously I would say most cars were hitting 40 by the time they passed my gate which is an area of on street parking and a “walk through parked cars bus stop”

It’s so much nicer to live on the same street now

But like I said, this is a different discussion.

I thought this was a discussion n the Welsh assembly imposing a 20mph speed limit in the name of road safety and some facts based on government data might be relevant 

So according to the governments own analysis speeding is not the issue it is made out to be

You’re mis-understanding the point.

ANY accident, regardless of how it was caused – inattention, looking the wrong way, wheels falling off, anything – will have more severe consequences if the vehicles involved are going faster. It’s the same reason we wear seatbelts and have crash protection systems and airbags. Pedestrians and cyclists don’t have those, hence 20mph in certain areas.

So according to the governments own analysis speeding is not the issue it is made out to be and they are actually ignoring the real cause of fatal accidents. That le2ads to the question of why aren’t they focusing on the major causes and locations?

Are you sure there’s not an effort to educate drivers around rural driving risks and what they can do about it?

Because one campaign is ‘easy’ and has some benefit, it doesn’t negate or replace other efforts to improve road safety for all. And let’s remember, urban speed limit reduction benefits those who walk and cycle, children and elderly, those who cannot afford a car, bus users etc. It’s a just approach to community safety – not a driver focused attack as so many present it as.

While the Welsh government cited road safety, many people have picked up on this as the *only* benefit, which is just not the case. There are so many more benefits – noise reduction, pollution reduction, pedestrians and  cyclists feeling (and being) safer, more uptake of active travel and public transport, etc etc.

You’re mis-understanding the point.

No. The point is speeding isn’t the main cause of fatal accidents. Why not focus on those that actually are but don’t heave revenue streams associated with them. Why are speed cameras installed on new roads. Surely if they are designed properly they should be safe and not need them

No. The point is speeding isn’t the main cause of fatal accidents. Why not focus on those that actually are but don’t heave revenue streams associated with them. Why are speed cameras installed on new roads. Surely if they are designed properly they should be safe and not need them

But flip it around the other way and ask why not

If roads are safer, quieter, cleaner and generally nicer at 20mph, why not do it? It only adds seconds, occasionally minutes to any given journey, so what is the actual downside?

I thought this was a discussion n the Welsh assembly imposing a 20mph speed limit in the name of road safety and some facts based on government data might be relevant 

Relevant to the 44% of victims who were vehicle occupants.

We’re mostly talking about the other 56%.

No. The point is speeding isn’t the main cause of fatal accidents.

Well, yes.  If the limit is 30mph and you are doing 29mph then speeding will not be a cause of the accident.  However, if the limit is 20mph and you’re doing 29mph then speeding will be a cause of the accident.

The fact is 30mph is simply too fast on busy roads where people on foot, on bikes, and in cars are all sharing the same limited space.

Also, you are failing to take into account that even if speed isn’t a direct contributor to a fatality/injury, if everyone is driving at 30mph then everyone has less time to observe because there is less time to pull out of a junction, less time to brake for traffic lights, less time when entering a roundabout, etc.

When the limit is 30 everything has to be done at a slightly more frantic pace which is where the mistakes come in.

The point is speeding isn’t the main cause of fatal accidents.

Nearly right it’s, @inappropriate speed is a major cause of fatal accidents@. Unfortunately the enforcing authorities simplified the message too much to cope with the 50% or more of us who are less than average drivers and are unaware of nuance.

According to government figures analysed by the RAC foundation 1711 died in RTA in 2022. Of which 44% were in the vehicle involved in the accident. Only 7% of accidents had exceeding the speed limit as a factor in reported accidents.

these numbers tell me that the speed limits are too high.

if people are being killed by cars that are travelling within the limit, then LOWER THE LIMIT.

Why are speed cameras installed on new roads. Surely if they are designed properly they should be safe and not need them

Yep, if by ‘designed properly’ you mean incorporating speed bumps/traffic calming measures, traffic lights and crossings, along with every measure available to keep speeds as low as possible.
But I’m going to assume you’re pinning the blame away from Larry Leadfoot who can’t be trusted to stick to below the speed limit, which is the root cause. People just drive too fast.

imnotverygood
Full Member
It removes the disconnect between you as a driver and the enviroment you’re passing

or in other words it means you aren’t fully concentrating on the road. 😕

I disagree. It gives you more time to notice environmental risks and hazards such as pedestrians,emerging traffic etc…..rather than trying to read the menu in the pub window.

56% of fatalities in reported road accidents had driver or rider error or reaction (which includes failing to look properly, loss of control and poor turn or manoeuvre) reported as a contributory factor leading to the accident.

And you’re against controls that might mean these crap drivers drive a bit slower when around pedestrians & cyclists for what reason?

So, was up a ladder cutting my hedge as I have to do every month or so.  Over the hour  I saw a handful of cars observing the 20.  In fact I saw one car overtake someone doing 20, on a humped zebra crossing of all places

There is no hope that people will ‘voluntarily’ abide by these limits so it needs enforcement, either through fines or technology like geofencing (and if the data / s’ware needs improving to make it work so be it.)

There is no hope that people will ‘voluntarily’ abide by these limits so it needs enforcement, either through fines or technology like geofencing (and if the data / s’ware needs improving to make it work so be it.)

I agree there are many who ignore it.

Anecdotally I would say that perhaps a third of drivers in our town stick to it rigidly, a third drift over the limit, and a third ignore it but are slower than before. But that means two thirds of cars are not below 30mph, and the last third are the kind of drivers who would have ignored 30mph before anyway but are now doing maybe 30, rather than 30+.

And it only takes one of us to slow most of the speeders down.

I’m still intrigued why anyone is arguing against safer streets for the more vulnerable street users…

Lots of people driving at about 40mph last week, in the 20 zone. Like a bad reaction. Muppets. Should be forced to walk everywhere instead.

I’m still intrigued why anyone is arguing against safer streets for the more vulnerable street users…

Because they don’t see their driving as the issue. It wouldn’t happen to them.

Because they don’t see their driving as the issue. It wouldn’t happen to them.

Also seems that most of the arguments against are pure whataboutery and/or prioritising the right to drive selfishly above anyone else’s rights to a safer more pleasant environment.

these numbers tell me that the speed limits are too high.

if people are being killed by cars that are travelling within the limit, then LOWER THE LIMIT.

On Motorways?
When mechanical failure is to blame?
When driver error is to blame?

As we say in my industry the only safe option is not to do it, once you’ve started you can only manage the risk.

People have been killed by cars moving at walking pace, ALARP principle applies.

Someone asked me the other week if I’d be happy to see a 40mph limit on B roads where cyclists are allowed and all other roads are left at existing limits but cyclists banned. I don’t think they expected me to agree.

A lot of limits are way above the safe speed on the road in question but what average idiot forgets is that it’s a limit and that you should drive to conditions. Since they are incapable of following that knock it down to 40 and once there is an alternative segregated route then put it back up if safe to do so.

Get hit by a car at 20mph you will survive with minor injuries.   At 30mph its major injuries.  At 40 mph iyou are likely dead.

Braking distances are shorter at 20mph than 30mph.

This is not about the car users.  Its about the thousands of pedestrians and cyclists killed by cars

There’s a trade-off between inconvenience and safety. That’s why speed limits are not 10mph everywhere, clearly. It would be too inconvenient to make limits 20mph on all A roads, for example.

However the key point is that 20mph on urban streets is really not that big of a deal.

Exactly. And don’t fall for the economic argument of driving slower costs more. So what if your amazon delivery is another 0.00001p more expensive. Shop local instead.

And don’t fall for the economic argument of driving slower costs more.

Its completely bogus anyway – traffic flows better with 20 mph limit and less fuel is used. 

If everyone were to stick to 20mph you’d get more people through roundabouts without needing lights, as the same sized gaps are automatically much more usable more safely. You’re less likely to need lights.

NOt only that but its much easier to adjust your speed to fit thru gaps at junctions and you have more time to do so.  Its much easier to co operate at low speeds like we do on single track roads

Why are speed cameras installed on new roads. Surely if they are designed properly they should be safe and not need them

Is this a serious post or is it an attempt at Alan Partridge style satire that has gone over my head?

fascinating dive into who runs all the anti 20mph facebook groups

(unsurprisingly its a bunch of tory councilors many of whom say different things in public)

So I have been having a little look at the people who run some of the Welsh anti-20mph Facebook groups.

It seems that many of them a run by Tory politicians…. who live in England….and support 20mph where they live….

Let's go on a journey (at a very safe speed).

[Thread]

— Will Hayward (@WillHayCardiff) January 15, 2024

*shocked Pikachu face*

What a surprise. People/politicians whipping up a storm to suit themselves – not serving the best interests of the country.

The point most people on here seem to be missing in spectacular fashion – The 20mph speed limit was in the main already in place before they spunked the 30 odd million on this latest nonsense.  It was already in place where there are schools and many other streets like housing estates. It made sense. When they did this, years ago, no one as far as I can recall had an issue with it. And its now been blanket implemented in some crazy places where its questionable if the previous 30 mph was even justified.

As a result every man and his dog now uses this as an excuse to be late or to cancel. Some are justified some probably not. But if you haven’t walked in these people shoes you won’t really know.

Taxis have been hit. Bus routes cancelled and villages left stranded. Fact.

They’ve got this hard-on for looking like they are “saving peoples lives” however they completely direct it to the wrong place, then ignore and trot out excuses for the huge elephant in the room. The state of the NHS in Wales.

But this lot don’t live in the real world as proved during covid times. They make mountains out of molehills in an attempt to justify their warped agenda’s.

Like these 50mph zones. Absolute crap and only brought in to get planning permission for things like a brand new housing estate next to a dual carriageway.  Without any shadow of doubt there are brown envelopes stuffed with cash involved here.