20mph in Wales…..

If you ride a bike leave a 2m gap for the cars (joke) !

As a rider on busier roads I think 20mph is actually more dangerous than 30mph.

Cars cannot safely overtake a bike and move on. I can see some riders undertaking in the “death zone!”

20mph for short sections of High St seems logical ,but not for mile after mile!

Logical for (Some)

residential roads , but not through roads or more mainstream roads .

If you ride a bike leave a 2m gap for the cars!

You’ll be overtaking the cars so it won’t be an issue!

Cars cannot safely overtake a bike and move on

Well the driver should wait until they can.

Just been reading some of the cost’s,  they expect to industry and trade etc. Wow

residential roads , but not through roads or more mainstream roads .

They aren’t changing all urban roads to 20mph.

They are changing the DEFAULT speed limit, that applies when there are no signs, to 20mph.

Main routes will still be 30mph.

Just been reading some of the cost’s,  they expect to industry and trade etc. Wow

How will this cost more?  Most of the roads that will be 20 are already slow roads with parked cars and junctions and so on. It’s going to make bugger all difference except improving safety in some spots.

I ride down in Wales most weekends, and I welcome it, but it’s going to be tricky on the road bike. I suspect I’ll be held up a lot so I’ll be using the less busy roads, as like folk have said, car’ won’t be passing and clearing off.

We have 20mph limits in every built up area here in the Scottish Borders. Its ace. Traffic moves out of junctions more easily, additional time on journeys can be measured in seconds, not minutes. Sure, most people drive at 25mph but still significantly slower than under the old limits. 30mph now feels super fast in a a town.

Two observations:

1. Lots of Europe has had 30kmph (18mph) speed limits  in built up areas for ever, without any downside. This immediately negates any of the frankly ridiculous arguments you will see against it
2. The people who object most strongly tend to be Tories / Brexiteers / Fair Fuel / Daily Mail types. In my view, if it annoys them, then it is generally good for the rest of society.

Objections here included engines not liking it (between second and third gear, damage to buildings from lorry’s rumbling more, driver getting bored and therefore easily distracted and more likely to crash, higher miles per gallon, more potholes, greater risk to cyclists, not being able to see kids in the evening due to be so late home from driving slower.  It is quite comical the utter tosh people were coming out with.

I’ve looked at Prestatyn, and there are only a couple of exemptions where the speed will be kept to 30 mph (no houses and just after a 50 zone), the rest of the 30 zones will be 20.

I’ve ridden in lots of 20 limits. It’s not bad at all, quite a lot nicer in fact. Sure, I could be riding at over 20mph myself, but on the kind of roads that will be 20 it’s often not a problem.  And should I be bombing down hills at 35mph in a 20 limit anyway?  Limits do apply to cyclists.

I ride a lot in town, I am in favour of it due to experience.

Just been reading some of the cost’s,  they expect to industry and trade etc. Wow

I haven’t seen these but do they come from self serving trade bodies. Likely to be utter tosh.

I live, drive and cycle in an area where (almost) every 30mph limit was dropped to 20mph during Covid. It is a much nicer place to be.

Busy motorways move faster when you lower the variable speed limit. Same can be said in towns. Easier to pull out of junctions, get around roundabouts etc.

From roadwise.co.uk

If you hit a pedestrian they have a much greater chance of surviving if your speed is lower.

If you hit a pedestrian:

at 40 mph there is a 90 percent chance they will be killed.
at 35 mph there is a 50 percent chance they will be killed.
at 30 mph there is a 20 percent chance they will be killed.
at 20 mph there is a 2.5 percent chance they will be killed.

End of argument, Shirley?

Lots of Europe has had 30kmph (18mph) speed limits  in built up areas for ever,

Yes indeed. Bring it on.

It’s the way the press are reporting it then.

In a 30 people tend to do 35 I suppose, so 25 in a 20 is safer

Be interesting to see if it goes nationwide.

The sooner it comes to England as well, the better.

Cars cannot safely overtake a bike and move on

Why would you overtake another vehicle if it is doing the speed limit?

my Ggeebeebies watching parents had a neighbour knocked down this week

this is the message from my mum

Latest update from the brother of the woman(Elaine) who was knocked down. A delivery driver was leaving a house 5 doors up from us when a BMW going about 70 mph came up Jeansway and skidded left to avoid the delivery car hit a wall and car and knocked Elaine down. She is in Addenbrooks with a bleed on the brain, broken hope, pelvis leg, punctured lung etc. The car had thousands of pounds and drugs in it! We need speed bumps here!

when i pointed out that speed bumps & a 20 limit would make it a LTN my dad actually agreed it was a good thing , which he’d previously ranted against

Be good if it goes nation wide.  Our caravan is off a road that serves 3 caravan sites (and one very big one) and folk don’t even stick to 30, and the pavement is very narrow in places, and heavily used by pedestrians – 20 mph will be bliss on here.

As someone who has 20mph zones all around home and our county, 20mph is a good thing.

The main roads are still 30mph, unless there is a school or similar other reason to be slow.

Vehicles are slower – maybe not 20mph, but perhaps early or mid 20’s, instead of early or mid 30’s….

It is quieter. Traffic flows well. I have fewer dodgy overtakes. Kids can cross roads more safely etc etc.

This is being rolled out in Scotland, and we have had it for what 2-3 years now?

The sooner it comes to England as well, the better

Agreed, although it’s been in parts of England for longer; Wales is catching up in someways. Cardiff has followed Bristol, which has been 20mph for almost a decade.

Positive story here. BBc

A driver has said a pilot 20mph zone meant he did not hit a 12-year-old boy after he failed to spot him running across a road.

It’s the way the press are reporting it then.

Yep. Right wing press hate it because they hate being told what to do. Left wing press love it because peace, calm, flowers and love.  Or, less cynically, lefties will accept rules for the common good.

If you hit a pedestrian:

at 40 mph there is a 90 percent chance they will be killed.
at 35 mph there is a 50 percent chance they will be killed.
at 30 mph there is a 20 percent chance they will be killed.
at 20 mph there is a 2.5 percent chance they will be killed.

End of argument, Shirley?

If you don’t hit the pedestrian in the first place there will be zero percent chance of them being killed at any any speed. But I guess that comes under of the heading of no money to be made and is harder to do

If you don’t hit the pedestrian in the first place

Right.  But people do hit pedestrians.

And cyclists

Right.  But people do hit pedestrians.

Then fix that problem. It’s not hard, just expensive. More pedestrian crossing, reused on street parking are 2 relatively cheap solutions. In new build areas they would part of the cost of building the development and you could mandate adequate off street parking as part of the planning process

Just reread it , it does say residential roads only!  Its the headline and first paragraph that was the click bait!

It did seem drastic!

Then fix that problem. It’s not hard, just expensive. More pedestrian crossing, reused on street parking are 2 relatively cheap solutions

Rubbish. How is that going to stop someone walking across the road not looking or listening?  As for more pedestrian crossings?  There’s one by our local supermarket on a pretty busy bit of urban road, with a crossing 5m down the hill.  The crossing is really responsive and it will nearly always stop the traffic immediately without waiting.  But people still cross the road directly across the entrance to get to the bus stop to avoid walking 10m.  They will do it with bags of shopping, and kids in tow, and they will half-cross it and stand on the white line between two rows of busy traffic waiting to cross the rest. So ped crossings aren’t the answer.

You’ll never stop pedestrians being hit, although we should try to limit that.  But you can limit the damage when they are.

I live in an English village with a Welsh name. Can we change our speed limit to 20mph instead of 30 mph?

I think it should be adopted every where.

20mph is helping to fix the problem as you have a better chance of stopping in time. It’s safer all round if the vehicles are moving slower. People don’t always use pedestrians crossings and some don’t look properly before crossing. That’s just normal human behaviour so keeping the traffic at a slower speed will reduce RTAs.

I’ve looked at Prestatyn, and there are only a couple of exemptions where the speed will be kept to 30 mph (no houses and just after a 50 zone), the rest of the 30 zones will be 20.

Prestatyn is, what, 2 miles wide in any direction?  You’d barely notice Prestatyn even walking!

A driver has said a pilot 20mph zone meant he did not hit a 12-year-old boy after he failed to spot him running across a road.

Really, and the admitted that in public. So this is used as a reason to slow down traffic rather than as why didnt either the driver or the pedestrian see each other sooner. Bad road design, poor observation from both parties, sight line obstructions? Who knows but if we are serious about road safety these are the real issues to resolve not just go slower so it hurts less.

why didnt either the driver or the pedestrian see each other sooner.

Because no-one is perfect, not 12 year old kids and not drivers.  Trying to rely on perfect behaviour from humans at all times is very foolish indeed and very much not a solution to anything.

 if we are serious about road safety these are the real issues to resolve not just go slower so it hurts less.

if we are serious about road safety these are the real issues to resolve AND go slower so it hurts less.

I stumbled on http://www.safespeed.org.uk/killspeed.html Whilst looking for fatality/speed figures. I didn’t realise what sort of page it was at first. Apparently it’s mainly the pedestrians fault – “According to various reports it isn’t usually drivers causing accidents involving pedestrians. For example the West Midlands Accident Review (click here) has it that in 61% of cases the pedestrian simply “stepped, walked or ran from the foot path”.

So it’s OK to kill them?

Their 4 cases are wonderful too. Case 4 – An advanced or experienced driver approaches the danger area. The driver recognizes the inherent danger of the hidden area (from which the pedestrian in our examples emerges), and reduces speed.

Hey check out the brain on Brad!

There’s one by our local supermarket on a pretty busy bit of urban road, with a crossing 5m down the hill.  The crossing is really responsive and it will nearly always stop the traffic immediately without waiting.  But people still cross the road directly across the entrance to get to the bus stop to avoid walking 10m.  They will do it with bags of shopping, and kids in tow, and they will half-cross it and stand on the white line between two rows of busy traffic waiting to cross the rest. So ped crossings aren’t the answer.

That suggests that someone put the crossing in the wrong place then, if you want to encourage people to use the crossing it has to be the easy option.

I love it. I’m proud to live in Wales. most French towns and villages seem to be 30kph, Portsmouth and Hull started rolling out 20 for residential streets in the 90’s, it really isn’t anything new. And what crappy cars do the people have who claim you can’t dive at 20 with everything exploding? Mine will be happy to set CC at 20 and trundle along, sometimes in 3-figures MPG. As a tight-wad I like that.

Then fix that problem. It’s not hard, just expensive. More pedestrian crossing, reused on street parking are 2 relatively cheap solutions. In new build areas they would part of the cost of building the development and you could mandate adequate off street parking as part of the planning process

Or you could introduce 20mph limits in towns and cities.

The stopping distance from 20mph is 12m. At that distance, a car braking from 30mph would still be going 24mph. That’s why 20mph limits in areas where pedestrians and cars are likely to come into conflict are a good idea.

I quite enjoy driving on the 20 mph roads in Scotland, it takes a little bit of getting used to at first but it feels so much safer for the residents of these villages and residential areas. It is like the speed limited cars thread we had recently not everyone will obey the rules but when a few do they slow everyone else down and make the roads safer.

Limits do apply to cyclists.

Errrr, actually, they don’t.

Just been reading some of the cost’s,  they expect to industry and trade etc. Wow

99% of those are absolute bollocks

I live in a 20mph zone with traffic calming measures, it’s ace.

I’ve ridden through a few cities with 20mph everywhere or 20mph zones – even Paris is a hell of a lot better than it was. It only takes a few people to stick to the limit and everyone else has to.

In the EV car I don’t care, press the limiter button on starting the car and it defaults to 20mph. Overtake a cyclist? Nah stay behind and protect them unless its really safe to overtake without exceeding 20mph.

I think electric bikes should have their assistance limit raised to 20mph, that way there would be no reason for a motorist to overtake them in a 20mph zone.

And of course, an obligation for smart cars incapable of exceeding the speed limit.

Ebikes and 20 mph, that’s another debate. They can’t currently pass me on my commuted up MTB as the cruising speed is 17-20 mph, not having ‘cheats’ catch me (this is in jest !)

The changes state all roads with 30’s and with street lighting 200 yards or less apart, unless exempted. There are just 5 exemptions for Denbighshire from what I’ve looked at.

It’s going to be a little confusing at first, but knowing the Welsh Police, safest just to drive at 20 on lit roads.

People are crapping all over the plans to change Wales' speed limits to 20mph instead of 30mph.

There is a lot of noise about it but having looked at the evidence I believe this is actually a really good bit of policy.

Let me explain.

[Thread] https://t.co/4PgH3vYPya

— Will Hayward (@WillHayCardiff) August 14, 2023

This was a pretty decent summary I thought.

I  have had  impatient motorists overtake in these zones , They cannot go faster due to the ambient speed and forget they are overtaking if a car comes the other way! Hence that at times it feels less safe.

It does seem to be the through traffic and not the local drivers. Not particularly “residential” roads either. Some confusion maybe?