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I will get to it, honest. As you can imagine, i'm a bit busy at the moment, but Thurs or Fri i'll have a crack at it on Volcano CCW as that's a decent enough kicker.
Dunno what it was but I didn't feel great today
Says the man knocking out a 320w average over 50k 😀
AND a really old Macbook
Hmmm my macbook is 4 years old now so maybe that's the problem. Seems to cope ok though. I think I just need to get more used to the changes in pace and be able to judge them better. Also not using a trainer with adjustable resistance so don't have that automatic kick when the gradient increases.
Ahem, my Macbook is an original Pro from 2007 (albeit with upgraded RAM and SSD), but its massively underpowered (a bit like me!) 😳
Your body adapts quickly to these efforts- you just need to make an effort first
Weeksy - you know I race outdoors already. I'm in my 5th week of my first experience of fully coached training. On my first week, I struggled to complete 6 x 1 minute at 340w. I have a heavy week this week - but yesterday I knocked out 15 x 30s at 840w, and today 15 x 1 min at 350w.
I moaned at my coach that the earlier intervals were too hard an expectation, and that some of my sessions -Z2's - were too easy.
Today I was humbled to admit I was wrong, have proven to adapted and hopefully sit here far more capable in just 5 weeks.
Go hard, rest, adapt - it works.
https://cvrworldcup.com/cvr-league/
Ooo! Frank is splashing the cash again. Looks like an interesting series for the new year.
That was bloody hard work. My avg according to ZP For that race was 346w. That means I’m just under 3.2w/kg. Finished 10th in C but looks like quite a few of them are over 3.2 limit so might finish higher up in the final results.
Aaarrrrrhhhhhhh......
WTF is up with Zwift today? tried to join 4 races and failed each time, and now just missed the Kiss race!
Phew, was going to join that one but didn't quite make it anyway
I did the KISS 8pm race. In quite a big group that just seemed to stay together. Thanks for the thumbs up 'Scaredypants'.
Finally managed to get onto a WBR training ride with a good group, still annoyed I missed the Kiss race though 😡
Lol weeksy!!!! You know what the answer is, Poor CH is stuck on repeat - that ol vinyl not going to keep playing for much longer 😆
Answer is one of these:
[img] 
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Regarding a pc, I just picked up a PC capable of running Zwift on high settings for under 100: http://singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/building-a-pc-from-second-hand-parts-zwift
It entertains me to think of him being that GiF who smashes it's head against the keyboard until it explodes 🙂
To be fair to him, he’s trying to explain the difference between playing with Zwift and training properly to improve. See Nates post.
Doing what you are doing will keep you fit to a point, its your choice of course. 🙂
Sounds like we need a good old-fashioned dance-off to settle this. Just like Stiffler in American Pie 3.
LOL the problem with that is that CH could destroy me without ever leaving Z2 now. Gone are the days of 3 years back where i made the bugger work hard and push himself. Long gone.
I picked up another +3 on CVR, which means I'm at +61 for the month of November.... Which is by a LOT my best ever month. So i've nearly cancelled out 2 of my previous DNFs now.... Phew. I'm not convinced i can make it back to 1000 points by Xmas, but i'll have a try of course.. I'll need some courses to suit my riding for that. Esepcially now the format has changed.
Looking at the points from the race, it seems they're now 100% split after the split starting intervals.
http://www.zwiftrankings.com/vcr/client/result/29357/44603/2017r12/all/6/1/0/0/1/1
So for the C guys there's i guess a lot less points on offer. Which is OK and fine, i'll just battle for the few points i can realistically pick up now. But may require a little more thought into which races and when.
Kryton57 - Member
To be fair to him, he’s trying to explain the difference between playing with Zwift and training properly to improve. See Nates post.Doing what you are doing will keep you fit to a point, its your choice of course
I totally get that, honestly i do. But i simply don't have the desire, willpower and ability to do day after day of targetted training. I have tried with using the 1 lappers to focus on pushing past my current Zones and into the Over/Under territory indirectly. OBviously though due to the nature of racing, you're never exactly sure when the overs will come or when the unders will and for how long, so it's not exactly structured in the same way as a training plan.
The massive difference for me is that if i don't race, i'm unlikely to Zwift nearly as hard or nearly as often.
My results are by luck or judgement getting a little closer to where i want to be again... I expect it's more luck 🙂
SO who's playing today, who's training, who's racing ?
I'm looking potentially at Sydkysten Cycling at 4.30pm which is 6 laps of Volcano CCW... That seem an interesting option potentially. Split start with 1 min intervals for it. But only currently a fairly small field.
The only one with a decent sized field is the 18:00 SZR Autumn race which currently has 98 total and 32 in C. But it's Taco Tuesday at home with the wife and boy... so i'm unlikely to break that (Yes i know it's Wed)
The CHOP race at 19:00 could be interesting, that's completely the reverse to usual with the D's setting off at 19:00 and the Cs off at 19:04, then 19:07 for the Bs and 19:08 for the As.... The plan is that the Ds hold off the Cs, who hold off the Bs, who hold off the As LOL. That could be quite interesting...but straight after Taco Tuesday.... Barf !
I'll try a slightly different tune with some plain English 😆
You can only take out from your legs what you have previously put into them.
Train hard- race easy.
It doesn't need to be hours of structure, plans, polarised riding or proper intervals Weeksy.
You want to ride a 30 second hill faster right? So all you have to do is ride up that hill faster 😆
It's as simple as that. Ah but it's not, because every time you reach the hill, you are already ****ed from keeping up with a group at close to your threshold.
If there was £50 riding on you posting a PB up it, would you
a) warm up for ten minutes then cruise gently to the bottom before smashing it hard
Or
b) do a flat out start three miles away, ride there as hard as you can and streak into it with your hr already through the roof
I bet you could start seeing improvements with just one 30minute session a week if you focused on riding up that hill repeatedly until you were cooked and rested the day after (it would take a couple of mins of rest to U turn to the bottom)
I used to lecture farm kids from the depths of the Forest of Dean so you'll never break me 😆
I think I might try a WBR 4 lap race today. There's a couple later on today so I should get in one or other.
There’s no point someone attempting something difficult if they don’t have the motivation to see it through.
No matter how many times you illustrate the benefits.
You want to ride a 30 second hill faster right? So all you have to do is ride up that hill fasterIt's as simple as that. Ah but it's not, because every time you reach the hill, you are already **** from keeping up with a group at close to your threshold.
If there was £50 riding on you posting a PB up it, would you
a) warm up for ten minutes then cruise gently to the bottom before smashing it hard
Or
b) do a flat out start three miles away, ride there as hard as you can and streak into it with your hr already through the roofI bet you could start seeing improvements with just one 30minute session a week if you focused on riding up that hill repeatedly until you were cooked and rested the day after (it would take a couple of mins of rest to U turn to the bottom)
That's the bit that confuses me though at this stage. Hitting it fairly fresh and good to go on lap1, i'm fine, i'm right in the mix, i'm going up there close to 5.0w/kg and happily in the right zone... Even lap 2 i'm sitting in the hill and happy.... It's only when we're getting to 3-4 that i'm finding it an issue
So in my mind i struggle to work out how hitting the hill from an easy loop with a rest, a la intervals is actually going to help me... Whilst you think/know it will, my mind still can't comprehend how.
I'm also wondering if i need to consider technique for it, click 1 gear harder, get out of the saddle and power it... or do what i'm usually doing and clicking 1 gear easier and spinning it...
The 4.30pm Volcano race today seems to be the chosen event now, which means 6 laps up the small 4-5% climb, that's the one of course that also hits me hard when i'm playing... So maybe i'll use tonight to try different gearing and see what results i do or don't get.
Because the power is saved in your legs with two variables- watts and time.
When you hit the hill, you use different muscles and energy supplies to those that carry you along at threshold. More sugar, less oxygen and the fast twitch fibres with less stamina.
They need to be trained separately. The reason intervals / hill repeats work is because in an hour of training, you can spend probably 7-10minutes working at that intensity (30seconds hard, 2 minutes total rest) whereas in a race, you are only giving your fast twitch muscles 1x30second effort at the wattage you'd like to be riding up there at.
crosshair - Member
Because the power is saved in your legs with two variables- watts and time.When you hit the hill, you use different muscles and energy supplies to those that carry you along at threshold. More sugar, less oxygen and the fast twitch fibres with less stamina.
They need to be trained separately. The reason intervals / hill repeats work is because in an hour of training, you can spend probably 7-10minutes working at that intensity (30seconds hard, 2 minutes total rest) whereas in a race, you are only giving your fast twitch muscles 1x30second effort at the wattage you'd like to be riding up there a
Yeah that makes sense 🙂
But.... Then when you ask for it next time a month later in a race scenario is it just going to be lacking again or is the thinking that now you've trained that type of muscle for that type of effort it will still work better when when you reach it 4 laps in at close to Max effort ?
I totally get that, honestly i do. But i simply don't have the desire, willpower and ability to do day after day of targetted training.
Fair point.
To answer your last post weeksy - Google "periodisation". You form/ability will go up, then down, then up in constant waves. But if you are constantly training and resting appropriately it'll go up slightly more at the top of each wave.
It's as much about timing.
Anyway, I shall be out doing 2 on, 1 off X 13 after lunch somewhere random...
Yes, your fast twitch muscles will have more stamina basically- more sugar left in their tank, more matches to burn.
The trouble is, to hold with the surges in a group race, you are constantly dipping into your fast twitch reserves to close gaps and counter moves.
That's why they are f****d by the last few hills of the race.
You need to think of it as two systems-
1. Aerobic, heavy breathing, slow twitch muscles, fat burning.
2. Anaerobic, brace yourself, fast twitch muscles, sugar burning.
They both rely on each other though so if you constantly train one, then the other one will limit it. Thats when you plateau.
In terms of technique, power is how hard you push x how fast you spin so I would recommend for a thirty second effort going +10rpm on your normal cadence at least. Then you have to push less harder, use less Fast Twitch muscles and burn less sugar.
Periodisation, i get that.. along with were others train for specific peaks and events. For me, i don't target particular events or races so peaking for a specific event doesn't really matter to me. In the same way that if i have form for April but not for May, it doesn't much matter.
This month i've 'rested' a lot more than usual, i've actually had 7 days where i've not ridden at all and 4 days where they've been <30mins for the 1 lap WBR races.
The downside of this is that my distance for Nov is only currently 605km, which is likely to make it to about 670km by the last day of Nov, but that's 100-150km down on the usual month.
Whether any of the rest or the shorter and harder efforts have been responsible for any of my 'form' i don't really know.
Periodisation, i get that.. along with were others train for specific peaks and events. For me, i don't target particular events or races so peaking for a specific event doesn't really matter to me. In the same way that if i have form for April but not for May, it doesn't much matter.This month i've 'rested' a lot more than usual, i've actually had 7 days where i've not ridden at all and 4 days where they've been <30mins for the 1 lap WBR races.
The downside of this is that my distance for Nov is only currently 605km, which is likely to make it to about 670km by the last day of Nov, but that's 100-150km down on the usual month.
Whether any of the rest or the shorter and harder efforts have been responsible for any of my 'form' i don't really know.
See my last post too ^^
Periodisation works because it cycles between the two systems. You spend so many weeks training your fat burning system and then build a sugar burning one on top. But that only last so long and then you need a bigger fat burning one to lift your level higher again.
To complete the circle as it were Weeksy, that's also why racing on a fast day is bad- less sugar for the fast twitchers.
And also why I was able to drop Nath the other day. He's currently forcing his body to make its own glycogen by not giving it any- so until it learns, he has no fuel for his fast twitch muscles (or at least slightly less fuel than me) 😆
Recovery is a major part of physical exercise so I'd suggest the rest days have probably helped you Weeksy. Especially since you race so hard.
I haven't raced much lately partly because there hasn't a race that has been on that has suited my time available, but also because I have realised I am not really strong enough yet to race consistently. The races I have done have just destroyed me.
My recent rides have been hilly efforts to try and work on this.
I am pootling around the road to ruins loop from the town today (well tomorrow morning for me) which I find to be a great work out with a bit of everything.
In terms of technique, power is how hard you push x how fast you spin so I would recommend for a thirty second effort going +10rpm on your normal cadence at least. Then you have to push less harder, use less Fast Twitch muscles and burn less sugar.
Yeah that's pretty much how my hills go looking at Cadence on the other days ride, round about 10 higher on cadence.
This for example shows one of the earlier kick ups.
[url= https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4520/26942697829_7050e07718_b.jp g" target="_blank">https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4520/26942697829_7050e07718_b.jp g"/> [/img][/url][url= https://flic.kr/p/H3QnoV ]cadence[/url] by [url= https://www.flickr.com/photos/152318156@N08/ ]Steve Weeks[/url], on Flickr
What's interesting to me is to see that the power increase in the kick up isn't necessarily that consistent. There's up down up down.
The below pic is later in the race, you can see just after the hill i drop cadence as i've lost the plot after the climb
[url= https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4532/38686223092_02c3c9825a_b.jp g" target="_blank">https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4532/38686223092_02c3c9825a_b.jp g"/> [/img][/url][url= https://flic.kr/p/21Wz1jq ]cadencelater[/url] by [url= https://www.flickr.com/photos/152318156@N08/ ]Steve Weeks[/url], on Flickr
To complete the circle as it were Weeksy, that's also why racing on a fast day is bad- less sugar for the fast twitchers.
I've not done fasting for a fair while now, maybe 6 weeks... .but i honestly do need to get back on it.. .even if that means no racing at times.
It also helps explains your better form 😆
The power isn't consistent because the resistance is being dictated by the profile of the hill. Every second, Zwift is telling the Snap how much resistance to give you. It then has to adjust and that takes at least another second.
...that my distance...
It’s about quality, not quantity.
And also why I was able to drop Nath the other day. He's currently forcing his body to make its own glycogen by not giving it any- so until it learns, he has no fuel for his fast twitch muscles (or at least slightly less fuel than me)
It, like me, is a stubborn git too!
You need to think of it as two systems-
1. Aerobic, heavy breathing, slow twitch muscles, fat burning.
2. Anaerobic, brace yourself, fast twitch muscles, sugar burning.
If you want a graphic example of this, I have a mate who used to do Iron Man triathlons. He could sit at just below threshold for hours maintaining close to what would probably have been a higher FTP than me, but when I put him on a mountain bike and went trail riding, he was destroyed by just going anaerobic a couple of times because none of his training prepared him for that.
He was used to simply sitting just below threshold and dragging him into anaerobic efforts blew him to bits and he couldn't recover because it wasn't something his body was trained to do. I could barely hold his wheel on the road, but off road he was hopeless. But, with regular off road riding - in the Peak so there were lots of sharp, kicky climbs - he adapted pretty well.
You can get hung up on structured training, periodisation and such, but if you don't want to do 'structured', Weeksy, why not have one Zwift ride a week where you go out and mix up short hard efforts with steadier stuff. Sprint the bottom 30 seconds of each hill or rise, recover a little, do it again. It probably won't be as effective as a more structured session, but it'll be more effective than just riding steady around threshold.
As a bonus, you get to watch people's weird, chimp reactions when you go past them. Love the ones who can't bear to be overtaken and come screaming after you. Make it fun and you'll do it. See it as dull and regimented and you won't. But if you just carry on doing the same old, the results will be pretty much the same regardless of how much rest you get.
As a bonus, it'll stop the structured training mafia from nagging you endlessly 🙂
Weird thing is, outdoors on an MTB i seem far better at the hard efforts/recover/efforts/recover than i am indoors on Zwift. I guess that's because i'm able to recover to a lower HR on the recover sections, whereas on Zwift racing, you only recover back to just below your Max.
That's a good example BadlyWiredDog and something I tend to do too much of i.e. threshold and below for long periods. I think I'll give the sprint intervals a try at least once a week and see how I get on.
Weird thing is, outdoors on an MTB i seem far better at the hard efforts/recover/efforts/recover than i am indoors on Zwift. I guess that's because i'm able to recover to a lower HR on the recover sections, whereas on Zwift racing, you only recover back to just below your Max.
Exactly! And that's why intervals/hill reps work 🙂
I have to do some work for a bit but the next logical topic is power profiles/curves I guess.
It's basically what I figured out Crit racing last year- you don't get dropped because you can't do 25mph in a bunch for an hour. You get dropped because you can't do 27mph for four minutes 😉
Nice post BWD 🙂
If you can't spend 30minutes a week out of 7hrs doing something that's going to radically improve your races then fine- but you've lost the right to bleat on it about it repeatedly 😆
It's not your bike, not your pedals, not your trainer, not your laptop, not your wifi, not even really your cadence or HR- it's your stubborn refusal to be proactive in changing 😆
😉
I am just going to leave this here while i figure out how i managed it.
https://www.zwiftpower.com/events.php?zid=29738
You've got to move to A now 😉
well done fella.. .Congrats.
Nicely done!!
My power curve is flat as a pancake right now, I think I’d actually get dropped on Saturday - I’m not even exaggerating!!
Still too many B’s that can kick my posterior but i might try an A race next week to see what i lack.
Todays race was reasonably entertaining with quite a small field but i know at least 2 of them normally beat me by a fair margin (one of them beat me yesterday by a couple of minutes). We were a decent bunch for the first lap but 1 guy got away at the start of the 2nd and then another guy amazingly caught him up and they had a 35 sec lead. The bunch really didnt do much to catch them and we had a couple of wheelsuckers which was annoying. We went into the last lap (lap 4) still 30s behind but one surge through the tunnel and we had rounded them up but mainly thanks to a C rider on zpower who came hurtling through us and the bunch chased him. Then 1.5 miles to go one guy sprinted off for a long one i guess so we went after him at quite a pace. There were 3 of us at the front but we were each seperated by a second or two and going pretty damn fast, with 0.4 miles to go i was at 175 hr so knew a sprint for me was going to last only a few seconds so with less than 0.2 to go i put the hammer down and strangely the other 2 must have run out of gas as well and i over took them with 100 meters to go and even then i blew up with 50m to go but managed to freewheel over the line for the win.
My power curve is flat as a pancake right now, I think I’d actually get dropped on Saturday - I’m not even exaggerating!!
It's definitely worth sticking with over winter as you can make some good gains. But then your stubbornness is well publicised so I'm sure you will 🙂
Nice work! I wouldn't move up until I was podiuming one of the headline races i.e. KISS to be honest. Even then I would probably race B still on the hilly races.
Just to clarify, under most organisers rules, it's FTP w/kg that defines cats so if you've never been 4w/kg, you have no obligation to race A's and can chop and change.
Of course pride suggests that Cat A is actually where the real racing begins 🙂