[Closed] Yacht racing question.

spinnaker, is it ?

if they're turning around the control boat they'll prod be heading in a "not spinnaker" direction

IANAS

They are changing direction a long time before they turn round.

That's not a spinny, it's an asymmetric.

They only work on broad reaches (heading across and away from the wind, rather than purely downwind, where a spinnaker would be better).

What direction is the leg after the control boat?

They all seemed to drop the sail at the boat but the pink sails seemed to drop later.
Just wondered if it was a handicap system .

oh, was that the end of the race?

in that case, they'll have dropped the asym as soon as they crossed the line as they're a pain to deal with. They'll have kept the main and jib up (easier to deal with) so they could get themselves home.

They were all lined up about a 1/4 mile away from the boat raced to the boat , dropped the front sail then continued on for a bit turned left and returned further out to sea.

Possibly a safety thing... if there are rounding a mark after a downwind leg to turn out to sea there'd be a lot of boats trying to make the turn together; sounds like they have added an extra leg that they have to do without chutes to force them to all drop them early and pay attention to the turn.

Looks like an RS400 so asymmetric spinnaker which is used to go downwind. The 400 also has a canting spinnaker pole to allow it to go deeper than a normal asymmetric.
They will be dropping the sales either to go around a bottom mark and head back upwind or possibly because they've ended the race and don't need the additional speed anymore, so would continue on the same course to clear the finishing area.
Not a handicap system and the colours are simply the colours that someone wanted to buy.

Or the next leg is too tight, or a fetch. (A leg where the wind is blowing more toward the front of the pointy end.)
Oh and the picture is not a yacht, it's a racing dinghy or racing sailboat if you prefer.

They all seemed to drop the sail at the boat but the pink sails seemed to drop later.
Just wondered if it was a handicap system .

Not handicap, just a skill/judgment call.

Asymmetric spinnakers like that allow the boat to sail quickly on a broad reach (with the wind about 45deg behind them), so they zig zag down wind. You can sail across the wind at 90deg but it becomes more and more difficult as the sail can't fill properly, look at the luff (front of the sail) in that pic, it's curling in making a flat edge where it should be round and full when powered up (the knack is to sail just on the verge of it curling as that's the max VMG (velocity made good, i.e. speed towards the mark once your angle is taken into account). So it could be that the next leg of the course is upwind, or the RIB could be finishing them and they're just waiting for the next race to start.

On the other hand, sometimes it's quicker to drop the sail a way before the mark and avoid getting into a fight with other boats, and if it gets stuck on the drop you'll come to a dead halt at the mark, so it's best to get it down early if it's windy to avoid any risk.

Symmetric spinnakers are out of fashion because going dead downwind is slow (you can't overtake the wind), but asymetrics allow you to sail much much faster so you make up for having to sail a zig zag course. Even dinghies which have symmetric spinnakers are tending to have them cut to work best on a broad reach and sail angles.

OP it would help if you had a video. If that was the finish boats may sail on with spinnaker up for a while or drop it straight away.

Symmetric spinnakers are out of fashion because going dead downwind is slow [b]and boring[/b]

That and symmetric spinnaker's are more complicated to [s]gybe[/s] go round corners with so the simplicity is a bit of a selling point especially for newcomers to the sport.

"When we turn you let go of this string duck and then pull that string"

Is a lot easier than...

"Release the guy, retract the pole, duck, clip the new guy in and launch the pole, put the guy under the reaching hook, set the guy and then pull the sheet, what do you mean what am I talking about?" (And I'm pretty sure I missed something there as it's been a while!)

Edit: and pink sails are for the fastest and/or bravest racers so that's why they come down much later 😀

More seriously different people have different attitudes to risk/speed when approaching a mark or finish line and different levels of boat handling. When I first raced asymmetrics we sailed on a tiny reservoir with short legs. We would often drop a sail (with clearish water into a mark) in a third of the space that some sea sailors would allow for taking there's down. Often worth a place or two. It's a balance though, occasionally we'd screw up and overshoot. I think we gained more than we lost but some days we definitely lost big!

Anyway, it looked like a lot of fun!
A physical sport that requires a lot of thinking .

Anyway, it looked like a lot of fun!

It is and after a few years off I'm just about to join a sailing club again with a view to teaching my eldest and having some fun myself. The boat in your pic or its little brother will possibly be on our winter shopping list.

It is alot of fun.

But if you think mountain biking is expensive.

I preferred a symmetric spinniker because it takes skill...

^^ yes indeed, its a great sport. If you are interested there here plenty of videos these days. This link is for J-70 class but lots and lots of stuff on their site

https://vrsport.tv/keelboat/j70/

Here are my Swiss based friends on their J-70 who I sailed with recently the UK (videos above) back in their home waters doing the Bol d'Or

[img] [/img]

But if you think mountain biking is expensive.

buy a topper for a few hundred quid and have a whale of a time 😀

Yeah actually that's a good point.

But start racing anything other than a topper...

420 is where the funs at. Do they even still make them?

"Release the guy, retract the pole, duck, clip the new guy in and launch the pole, put the guy under the reaching hook, set the guy and then pull the sheet, what do you mean what am I talking about?" (And I'm pretty sure I missed something there as it's been a while!)

That's pretty old fashioned by symmetric standards now! In ours (a Scorpion) you pull two strings and that's it.

Regardless of boat type, provided there's a spinnaker of some kind involved it's pretty great. Utterly exhausting, though.

@josh 420 yes indeed they do, still a very big youth development class on the Olympic path to 470's

@munro all those strings are still used on bigger boats / yachts.

[s]420[/s] 29er is where the funs at.

Only if you're a midget!

49er / Int 14

Or RS800 in a blow

One of my best sailing moments was in a Wayfarer sailing across to the Isle of Wight. A good steady force 5, broad reach, spinny up boat screaming along, absolutely flat, spray everwhere.

We passed a few feet off the sterns of a gaggle of Sunsail training boats.

I had the tiller and sheet in one hand, apple in the other , John, who's boats it was was playng the spinnaker. That reach seemed to go on for ever.

One of the Sunsail bods looked at me and I raised the apple in salute. Us flat out without a word being said, we'd sailed together a lot and John was never the most chatty of guys. The Sunsail bods going nowhere and shouting at anyone and everyone. I know how was having more fun.

The long beat home wasn;t as much fun, but still good. Time spent in a boat is never wasted.

Time spent in a boat is never wasted

my brother just bought a Boss off e-bay for pennies, now trying to convince someone to sail with him!
[img] [/img]

It's not that expensive, certainly not mountain bike expensive if you factor in depreciation, if you buy wisely you can buy a boat use it for a couple of seasons then sell it for not much less than you paid for it.

OK if you buy obscure, or over powered stuff like that Boss or a 49er (which you couldn't possibly sail as an entry level sailor you'll pay the price) but there are stacks of dinghies on apolloduck.com or there's a fb group dinghys and bits I think it's called.

Personally I prefer more tactical stuff, if you want thrills on the water there are more efficient means of going about it than being surrounded by loads of bits of wire and rope, like kite or windsurfing, dinghy racing is more cranial, yes it's physical, but you also have to use the grey stuff between your ears, there is no sport I've known that is more enduring than racing saily things, I love it.

Very true, I think a lot of it is that the conditions are never the same each time out.

Done a little team racing which is fun and adds to the thought needed.

It's not that expensive, certainly not mountain bike expensive if you factor in depreciation, if you buy wisely you can buy a boat use it for a couple of seasons then sell it for not much less than you paid for it.

+1, it's only as expensive as you make it.

I paid about the same for my boat as you would for a basic (albeit new) FS bike 3 years ago, it's probably still worth the same now. Stuff like sails costs £££, but in a decent one-design they last 3+ years competitive use, then the same again of club use.

Equally there are people who spend £10k+ every few years on a new boat. And then there's Moth sailors who'd sell their granny to buy some new carbon bits.

Me in the middle (I'd apologize for not hiking and the sail shape, but it was race 8, 25knts and I was beat!)
[img] [/img]

Picked up a 49er after a 16 year break from racing dinghies seriously. Hooked again. Steep learning curve but incredible bang for buck.

we've put in about 20 hours on the water in the last 12 months and can just about get round a course... Hoping to be back racing again end of the summer.

my brother just bought a Boss off e-bay for pennies

[Boss = big fat tank]

[Boss = big fat tank]

[Boss = big fat tank]

Everything's heavy with 200kg of crew.

The advantage of Buzz/Boss/ISO Vs something from Ovingtons is that two kids can buy one for pocketmoney or even just take a bottle to T-cut to one abandoned in the dinghy park and race in the handicap fleet.

Everything's heavy with 200kg of crew.

Yep! It's been an eye opener how important build is in going fast in small boats.

"When we turn you let go of this string duck and then pull that string"

I didn't know Garage-Dweller was from Stoke on Trent.

@bigjohn it took me a minute to work that out!

Tinas is spot on with the vfm on those old topper boats I suspect. I sailed in the ISO for a couple of years. Early ones were hit and miss on build quality but good fun, especially in a blow.

Fan of the Blaze too.

I had a Blaze, sold it to get an RS100, sold that, made my own, then got a Laser EPS which quite coincidently just so happens to be for sale right now 😉 cheap, £750, now that's not expensive is it?

I never helm boats, and even then I'd not get a single hander as I like the company, but if I were I've always thought the EPS would be the one. Shame the Vortex (which admittedly is also pretty cool) killed them off.

grumph, is that you?

Graham, if that's you, what happened to that 'lovely' single hander you designed and had made?

Laser EPS I had a demo in one of them many moons ago. Quite an interesting boat and was fun to sail.

My main thing was Lasers for a long while as it meant I could pick and choose whether to ride or sail without annoying someone else by not turning up but I always liked being on the pointy end of something quickish with a trapeze more. The Int14 and 49er are still on my to do list and for nostalgic reasons I'd love another go in a 505.

+1, it's only as expensive as you make it.

A lad I know is permanent crew on a J-boat..... now that's expensive!

A lad I know is permanent crew on a J-boat..... now that's expensive!

I imagine that lunch will run into the hundreds easily!!

It's the bar bill I'd be worried about.

Only got into sailing in my mid 40s after years of pestering by the sailors that my local club where I windsurfed. Biggest regret of my life not getting into it sooner. I am totally addicted.

Been at it a few years now and do the open race circuit and the nationals. Reminds me so much of MTB racing in the good old days 80/90s; Great crowd.. familiar faces.. fantastic crack.. get to spend weekends at some stunning locations.

Depending on the boat.. it can be a very cheap sport. It's much cheaper than my MTB was and none of the new model cr*p every year.

Benefits.. no broken bones.. 15mph feels like 50.. worst that can happen is you can get wet (albeit the exception of course).

There are some real crap boats out there though and unfortunately lots of clubs are populated by very old guys offering to take you out in boats that will immediately put you off sailing. Choose the boat and the instructor wisely and you'll have a pastime that can carry you competitively to an age no other sport can.

sharkbait - Member
Graham, if that's you, what happened to that 'lovely' single hander you designed and had made?

I ran out of cash to complete the next phase which was to jack it up on foils, so it sits like so many others nurturing nettles in the boat park. I also discovered the "Solution" which is a lovely little boat for lake racing and I keep the EPS for use on the sea where it can stretch its legs and occasionally I can sail it to its handicap.

Ezorillo hits it nicely on the head with all the descriptions of crap boats there are out there and old guys ramming them down the necks of the young, but there have also been a spate of quite neat new single handers, the RS Aero, the D Zero, the Hadron H2, the refurbed Supersofa, our club has an infestation of Lasers right now and qute a fleet building which I've resisted until now. I'd really like a trapeze boat but can find nothing to suit my weight and buid, maybe I'll set to with some wood in the garage next winter..

. I also discovered the "Solution" which is a lovely little boat for lake racing

Was tempted by a solution as they do look a lovely boat, but the class open participation is dire and the numbers just arent out there. One of my main criteria was a busy fleet, so been racing Supernovas for a couple of years now and atm it is buzzing with a good circuit and big crowds at most events.

As I said previously.. really reminds me of the old MTB racing scene. A few top boys to chase, the rest of the fleet helping each other and everyone pissed the Saturday night.

As a side note.. Dont the Orange lot also do a bit of sailing? I was competing in the tiger trophy at Rutland and there was a boat with OrangeMTB sponsorship.
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Lester Noble (Orange) was/is into his sailing/windsurfing.

The Int14 and 49er are still on my to do list and for nostalgic reasons I'd love another go in a 505.

I recall a cruise one evening from Seasalter SC to Whitstable. I left my Lasde behind and crewed for a guy on his Tornado. It weas slow drift down to Whitstable, where we had a meal and a couple of beers. The others got up to leave and my helm asked if I'd like another drink. Silly question.

By the time we'd finished and walked to the beach, the others were lttle but dots on the horizon. The wind had freshend and it was set for a fast reach home.

I'd sailed cats before, but not the mighty Tornado. We set off and it seemed
quick but nothing exciting. However, it wasn't long until we caught the early starters and went past them like they were standing still. Very impressive. Effortless speed. Quite a long way up once the windward hull starts to fly though

One of the best was a sail in a Flying Dutchman, once I'd got to grips with the continuous trapeze. Steep learning curve.

Again speed without drama. The length (fnarr, fnarr) provided stability and she cut through the waves like no other single hull craft since. Glorious looking boat and you could pretend you were Rodney pattion or Ian MacDonald Smith. Younger readers might need to google their names.

Lots of early mountain bikers were part of the sailing/windsurfing scene, Guy Farrant from Whyte is responsible for me getting into dinghys when he loaned me a Musto Skiff as my first boat (how difficult can dinghy sailing be?). Lester, Roger still dinghy sail, Lester sails that 49er with his brother you'll come across them up at the Lord Birket. Pete Holton from Marin had a hand in designing that 49er and campaigned an Iso and Boss.
The place I had that boat built's other job was repairing busted carbon ATB frames can't remeber their name now Jamie someone or other and Dan Holman worked there before he built the Punk which became the D-Zero. I fancied a Supersofa but just can't stand the rig, big sticky out full battened roach not easy to control on the start line I didn't think, then if everyone's got one I don't supposed it matters, other than that it's a nice sail, my mate had one before he got a Phantom.

Benefits.. no broken bones.. 15mph feels like 50.. worst that can happen is you can get wet (albeit the exception of course).

I have a big hole in my shins where a self-bailer scooped some flesh out in a capsize 😯

I've raced against Lester at the Birkett. They are always in the top 20. The 49ers, 800s, Int14s and sometimes 18ft Skiffs just look mindblowing blasting down wind through 200 odd slower dinghies and yachts going the other way!

The Birkett is a great event by the way, thoroughly recommended! Although the risk of getting sliced in two by the ferry (like my old helm, who got new sails out of it) or a cruiser (like my uncle, who was on starboard) or a keelboat (Tempests and Flying Fifteens just do not give a shit about your much faster dinghy) is high. And the disappointment of racing for five hours to find out you were black flagged is pretty crushing.

Aye.. a couple of members at my local club also have boats on Ullswater and asked me to crew at the Birkett, but it clashes with the Supernova Nationals the other end of the country.

Maybe next year.

Fan of the Blaze too.

The Blaze was the exception to the Topper 'performance' boats rule. A lot of the things people complained about are actually it's saving graces in the long term. The lack of rocker means it planes beautifully, the large wetted area means there's little advantage in being skinny, and it's very forgiving to sail (compared to an RS300).

Aero/D-zero - Lotus Elise
Moth - F1
Blaze - Supercharged Mustang 8)

tinas

If I hadn't just bought my first decent car 6 months before I test sailed it, I'd probably have spent the next three years paying for the Blaze and not the VW Golf that I'd bought and welding the ancient Triumph back together a lot.

The ISO was a nice boat to crew (but only without the badly designed wings), the ergonomics were good but the build quality not so much (remembers inspection hatches being installed in order to bolt rudder fittings back onto the boat mid open-meeting). I also remember a very windy open at Worthing where someone had to drive back to HQ and pick up every spare mast they had as they'd broken more than 10 in a day. One guy snapped two that weekend iirc.

I still have to try cat sailing too but not really an option where I'm based.

Love those comparatives too.

My mission for the rest of the year is to work out what fun dinghy for a 90-100kg grown up (trying to bring that down) plus a 25-30kg child. So we can buy over the autumn / winter. Where my 8 year old (now) can get the hang of some basics crewing but it won't be so mental that he can't learn to helm it in lighter airs.

Then if i'm really up for some trouble with Mrs GD something cheap and single handed for me (that'll carry the weight) too.

If anyone's got any bright ideas post them up!

I bought a Miracle when my son showed a short lived interest in sailing. Not sexy, but light, safe and cheap. He should be able to sail it too in lighter conditions. Depends how much you want to spend.

Depends how much you want to spend

I'd happily spend the budget deficit, if left unrestrained (which i won't be). In practice £1000-1500 for a dinghy is probably about where we're starting. I'd expect a Miracle (another boat i have a soft spot for) to probably slot into that.

Mrs GD has popped through from the living room and say she likes the idea of one of those things with cabins that goes slow and she's expressed a desire for something that will carry all 4 of us. I think this takes us to small cabin cruiser/keel-boat territory ultimately. YIKES 😯 that's a level of complication I hadn't envisaged when I sent off the form for the sailing club! I get where she's coming from but I may also need something that'll pop up on the plane as an adrenaline supplement 🙂

By the way what's the best place to buy small keelboats/dinghies from nowadays? Last time I bought it was probably out of the back of Y&Y!

TO THE OP; really sorry I seem to have totally hijacked your thread. 🙂

Sailing can be expensive, very expensive. Depends on the boat and of course whether you are the owner, OPB - other people's boats - are very economical 8)

I learnt to sail as a teenager on a Hampshire schools trip and we where out on the Solent for a weeks camping in Wayfarers during the 1979 Fastnet, little did we know at the time about the loss of life further West 😐

GD plenty of internet sites, appollo duck ? Also have a look at what others are sailing at your club / area. What does the Mrs want a cabin for, sleeping in or just sheltering from the weather a bit when anchored, so ewhere for her to have a pee in private ?

Garage dweller, as an all up weight an RS200 would work fine, loads about, hold value well and not very powerful although hard to sail very well.
Lots of parent child crews at the nats when I was sailing as well.

If anyone's got any bright ideas post them up

Mk1 blazes are in budget, and if looked after they're still compettative. Not 2 handed though.

Keeping with the theme of the thread, an ISO? Cheap and plentiful, there's actually two now sailing at our club with parent/kid crews as 2nd boat. More money to spend on your own toy then.