[Closed] Would You...? [helmet nazi content]

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Innit.

Harry_the_Spider - Member
Off at a slight tangent...

I was sat outside the cafe in Heaton Park a bit back. There was a family at the next table with kids and bikes. One of the V-Brakes on the bike next to me wasn't hooked up (noodle out of cage), so I said "You're brake is undone" and instinctively popped it back in. The dad gave me a look that suggested he wasn't best chuffed.

On even more of a tangent - I mentioned to a bloke while dropping some garden waste off at the tip that his bonnet appeared to be open and held shut only on the catch. He looked at me like I'd just jumped on his car and pooed on the bonnet.
His wife mooched over to the bonnet & exclaimed loudly that 'he's right you know, you've left the bonnet open'.....the bloke looked like steam was about to erupt from his ears! 😀

Jealous of my abilities ha ha , like it. Nope he was far to fast for me to catch up... which is fine cos I was taking it easy due to lack of helmet, thats my excuse and I'm sticking to it. 😉

I try and awlays have fun... thats what bikes are for, I have moved on just wondering if its normal, and whether other people are as concerned as others well being as this guy was.

If I do something stupid and die, my family would be upset.

Don't do something stupid then?

The thing I am tempted to say something about is the people
"wearing" helmets so badly fitted or with the straps so loose as to be virtually useless. Especially kids.

If you are going to wear one do it properly

...So what would you cause you to have a word with someone? How stupid would they have to be being before you did?

Something like this ?

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This picture was taken at the top of the Tougnete in meribel at 2450m (cross over point to Val Thorens area)

They were just about to set off down a black descent (don't know how hard it is, but it didn't seem like a great idea !!!)

Lots of people "had a word" so I didn't need to, but I certainly would have nobody else did

TandemJeremy - Member
The thing I am tempted to say something about is the people
"wearing" helmets so badly fitted or with the straps so loose as to be virtually useless. Especially kids.

If you are going to wear one do it properly

+1 (on a helmet thread of all things!)

Don't do something stupid then?

Well I try not to, but some folk seem to have trouble with that.

Sometimes people do need protecting from themselves. For example, motorbike helmet laws, seatbelt laws and so on.

So should I have given this couple of good telling off?

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A rather high proportion of 'daily' deaths come from head injuries.
Would it not make sense for people to wear helmets any time they are in public?
Suspect a lot of lives would be saved.
Also, definitely in cars along with 5 point harnesses - this would save a lot of lives.

As an asside I reqularly roadie without a helmet....I've no idea why I do this

Neal Glover did they do the black run?

Not a chance of that happening

Suing or winning? Having worked in the legal profession I think the existence of an "ambulance chasing" culture isn't just a figment of popular imagination. At present, anyone can walk in off the street and instruct a solicitor under a conditional fee agreement underwritten with an ATE legal expenses insurance policy, which leaves them at no financial risk if the claim fails.

However in relation to healthy outdoor activities like walking and cycling the pendulum seems to have swung back towards sensible, for the time being, and I saw very few cases where people were suing as a result of injuries incurred in leisure activities - it was usually accidents at work or road traffic claims.

That doesn't stop users of your facility from suing you though, it just makes them less likely to succeed. It can still be a costly time-consuming process fighting a claim.

An interesting point is that most authorities agree that not wearing a helmet can't be used against victims of injuries. No idea how this would apply to someone who'd injured themselves riding off road without a helmet and decided to sue.

A rather high proportion of 'daily' deaths come from head injuries.

The more relevant question would be what is the risk of a head injury whilst biking vs walking about?

Re road vs mtb - I think that wearing a helmet whilst road riding is more important because the higher speeds and liklihood of being hit by something you're not expecting would be more likely to result in an uncontrolled flinging about rather than a controlled bail that you see coming. Also tarmac is harder than many trail surfaces.

There was a case where someone had their compensation reduced because of no helmet. However, it was a competitive event (at a work team building thing) and helmets had been provided; also the rider was shown to have been 'riding aggressively' I believe.
So not really a situation that sets a precedent for normal trail riding.

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Yeah I think you are right there.. If I fall off at 30mph then Yup I'm gonna be hurt. It has been known for helmets to have little or no effect at speeds like this. I could mention TT'ists being hit from behind, but then the thread will go soooo far off tangent that it'll orbit Pluto.

"Queues up for the naysayers"

I have fallen off on many occasions, been knocked off roadies all my life, slides, slips, rear ends spinning out, front end loss, brake failures, decents, accents, corners, straights,fast and slow, being front ended by puke waggons, pushed off by buses, turned into, pushed off by mates even, spoke failures, potholes, drains, white lines, cobbles, gravel, dust, mud, field run off, cowshite, moss, diesel, water, rain, fog, dry, snow, ice, tub rolloffs, punctures, crossing roads, entering and exiting junctions, racing, training, going to the shops, going to the pub, commuting, stupidity. All of these and all of them I've either been, or not been, wearing a helmet.

I'm still here.

And you love me for it.

And yes, my dad was killed in a RTA when I was 11 - he was cycling but with no helmet. From what I understand of the accident however, it seems unlikely a helmet would have made any real difference.
On a trail you're relatively more in control.

While on something like a motorbike I feel I have more control over my situation as I'm generally passing other vehicles and have very good brakes, on a push bike on the road where I'm constantly getting passed, I feel I'm in relatively less control of my fate.
May just be a training issue of course - have done various 'advanced riding' stuff on the motorbike.

Nobody has yet commented on me not wearing a helmet on my uni.

I think I've only ever once not landed on my feet coming off mine, so from that, my evidence suggests it's actually relatively 'safer' :).

(And even then, it was because I thought I was about to fall, got my feet off and it just balanced there for a couple of seconds, then fell sideways while I was initially confused that I wasn't falling!)

On a trail you're relatively more in control.

You're a better rider than me then 🙂

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Unicycle specific helmet?

molgrips
The more relevant question would be what is the risk of a head injury whilst biking vs walking about?

About 50% higher for the walkers

.. If I fall off at 30mph then Yup I'm gonna be hurt.

There's a wide variety of accidents you have being hit by cars or indeed just ocming off a bike. Saying that a helmet wouldn't help in some of them is rather pointless.

I've seen first hand accidents where cyclists have sustained nasty head injutires. So it clearly does happen. That's why I wear a lid.

I dunno why so many people have such a problem with this simple idea. Just goes to show how good our minds are for justifying the things we want to do I suppose.

About 50% higher for the walkers

I find myself not wanting to trust any stats quoted by you, TJ, because you are so massively biased towards your entrenched point of view.

Is that by time spent doing the activity, overall time or distance?

"[i]On a trail you're relatively more in control.[/i]"

I think that needs clarifying - it could mean a number of things.

It's true to say that on a trail, an accident is highly unlikely to be caused by another person; whereas on the road there is a high chance of it being caused by another person.

One key issue on the road is whether and to what extent wearing a helmet influences the behaviour of those other persons who may cause accidents.

I find myself not wanting to trust any stats quoted by you, TJ, because you are so massively biased towards your entrenched point of view.

I feel the same actually, sorry TJ.

Yeah I/we know the arguments.. but sometimes even professionals in sanctioned UCI events die from head injuries, and they are obliged to wear helmets. I'm naming names here but "that" crash was at 30mph, on a shallow bend with damp patches and a little bit of gravel runoff.

I'm not advocating wear one or not, just make your own choice to.

Actually I have done the stats for helmets. They suggest that compulsory helmets for car drivers would save more lives than compulsory helmets for cyclists.

I can dig out the number if anyone cares.

that I do believe. Mind you if I tried wearing a helmet in my car, I'd get compression of the neck/spine trying to fit myself in 🙂

i'd be interested graham

Molgrips - I aint biased - its the pro helmet folk that are 🙂 You simply like to dismiss the truth because it doesn't fit in with your preconceptions. Be open minded and sceptical towards all evidence. I am

this is the paper that shows walking is higher risk per kilometre for head injury than cycling

this is the overall stuff on relative risk

http://www.cyclehelmets.org/1026.html
Have a read and look at the references then judge

i'd be interested graham

Alrighty then 😀

In 2009* there were 2,644 cyclists admitted to hospital with head/face injuries, a significant number of whom will have been wearing helmets.

In the same year 4,001 car occupants were admitted with head/face injuries - and very few (if any) will have been wearing helmets.

Ergo, if you really want to reduce the total number of head injuries in accidents per year, across the whole population, then you'd be better off making full-face crash helmets compulsory in cars 🙂

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*Based on the HES2009 figures for hospital admissions, "Reported Road Casualties Great Britain 2009": Table 6c, http://tinyurl.com/3j7rytd

TJ - Quite probably/possibly it's perfectly valid. Thing is that's a clearly biased site...

And for those that are interested decent summary of the deabate and lots of links

http://www.ctc.org.uk/desktopdefault.aspx?tabid=4688

Graham, you haven't factored in how relatively effective helmets are in preventing injury in car/cycling accidents...

clubber - indeed - so use your healthy scepticism and follow the references to decide its validity.

I'm not that interested TBH 😉

haven't seen the thread but thought it was about nazi helmets - not helemt nazis.

there was a guy at afan riding in what looked like a nazi replica helmet on saturday!! 😯

It was instictive.

No it wasn't. Jumping when you get a fright is instinctive. Breathing is instinctive. I do not believe an uncontrolable desire to meddle is actually instinctive. 😀

Graham, you haven't factored in how relatively effective helmets are in preventing injury in car/cycling accidents...

True.

I am assuming that a proper crash helmet, as worn on motorcycles or by race car drivers, used in conjunction with the existing crumple zones, impacts bars, airbags etc, would be more effective than the bit of polystyrene and plastic worn by cyclists.

That may not be a valid assumption, but the figures are such that there is plenty of leeway:

Even if [u]all[/u] 2,644 of the cyclists admitted had not been wearing helmets [u]and[/u] bike helmets would have been 100% effective in preventing their injuries, then car helmets would still only need to 66% effective or better to prevent more injuries.

nope - it's their choice to wear or not to wear. Nature will take care of the rest

Nature will take care of the rest

ps not having a go at you personally m6ttf you were just the last commentor.

Indeed, no one seems particularly up in arms if you go scrambling without a helmet and yet when it comes to cycling anyone who even glances at a bike without a helmet is a cretin who will cause untold misery to family members and friends when they are inevitably killed or brain damaged in a seemingly benign fall.

Don't really understand why cyclist's heads are so much more delicate.

Cycling really is viewed as a dangerous pass time, even by cyclists seemingly.

And why would that be? Could it be perhaps that we have to thread our way through ignorant drivers all the time and suffer near misses..?

And there's a big difference between walking and cycling - when cycling, your safety is in OTHER PEOPLE's hands.

no it isn't Molgrips.

Genuinely don't care what other people do, it's entirely up to them