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Shiiiiiit. Crapita is bad enough at the recruiting
How much is the starting salary for OR1/private these days, about £18K? I'd imagine that's got something to do with how well the recruitment drive is going.
@relapsed_mandalorian Yeah, that sounds very familiar. I was only a STAB, but we had a person in G1 dedicated to keeping people in the pipeline engaged with the process and stopping them drop out. Utterly insane and there was still the expectation that the Reserves would take up the slack on ops when the regulars were short or needed specialists attached.
That is something that always used to make me annoyed... Large disaster/strike/whatever: Call out the Army to fill the gaps, but a lot of the specialists are reservists and often work in the area that needs support so, if it's say a medical emergency, where do you magically pull the staff from?
Whatever, I'm out of all that now and being pulled back into it would be a challenge for them. I just feel sorry for the poor bastards that have to take up the slack.
If I'm honest, that's a fair wage for the average Private in training/their first year, but as you can see it accelerates at a pretty good pace. after training, with an incremental rise for every year of service, and pay rises on promotion.
This is where defence correspondents don't help with erroneous and inaccurate reporting.
Add in cheap accommodation, messing, access to medical and dental akin to private healthcare, subsidised/free education, it ain't all bad.
When you see the bods leaving camp on a friday they're not leaving in shitbox cars that's for sure.
No, and I would be prepared to go to prison. I have avoided working in any defence industry - for a reason. I am not prepared for any of my children to fight.
Yeah, I know that pay rates escalate pretty rapidly, but to get to even my immediate staff (lower management, 5-6 receptions/admin responsibility, 9-5 Mon-Fri indoor work, no heavy lifting at a reasonably run-of-the-mill GP practice) is the equivalent of a soldier doing what? 5-6 years time served and Lance Jack, and all the responsibility that goes with that.
Yeah there are other benefits fo'shure, but a youngster looking at the Military as a career now has to be motivated beyond salary, and I'm not sure its that attractive, given that 1. It's no longer the stable career it was even just a decade ago, and 2. There's a more than better chance of being in a shooting war..
Talk of the UK going to war with Russia is absurd, a sick joke. In any case, what would these working-class males be fighting for? Their minimum-waged, dead-end jobs in the Amazon warehouse, packing up Macbooks and iPads for Audi drivers' kids in the burbs? The sick, predatory care system in which their parents will die miserable, exploited, and neglected? A welfare system that punishes and humiliates the victims of economic decline, their communities and industries asset-stripped by hedge fund managers and Porsche drivers?
Should they fight for the Mones and the Lords and the Dukes who pay zero tax on their multi-billion-pound estates they stole from their ancestors and never gave back? Fight for the land and fields and rivers from which they have no right to roam upon? How about a corrupt, irrelevant monarchy which liquidates the estates of dead citizens to upgrade their Airbnb lets? What the English simply cannot see is that they are already an occupied land and have been for a very long time.
So, if you talk about fighting for this country, taking back our own land which was stolen from us, smashing the corrupt, incompetent ruling elite, maybe I'd sign up for that, but not to die cold, hungry and afraid in some muddy field, murdered by a deranged Russian teenager for a continent from which the prosperity and freedom I am bereft.
“See that little stream — we could walk to it in two minutes. It took the British a month to walk to it — a whole empire walking very slowly, dying in front and pushing forward behind. And another empire walked very slowly backward a few inches a day, leaving the dead like a million bloody rugs. No Europeans will ever do that again in this generation.”
There’s a more than better chance of being in a shooting war..
It's a bitter irony that it then when the Army actually becomes enjoyable. All the bullshit goes out the window and it becomes a much more focussed organisation, training increases, resourcing increases, extraneous processes are discarded, it's why post-operations the forces hemorrhage people and then struggles to recruit as all that stuff ramps up again.
Seems the head shed haven't joined those dots yet and figured out how to solve that issue. Might be worth a look at how to make post-op defence a less shit place.
Ultimately the job is what it is, it's not pink a fluffy where we hold hands and skip through fields of wheat, it's about preparing, directly or indirectly to kill other humans and/or support that end goal. Yes there are other other tasks that it can be called to do, which is fine and dandy but that core mission is what 90-95% of training and preparations focuses on. I'd challenge anyone to make a successful recruiting campaign without lying or omitting the obvious. 😂
Also, if the MOD for some bizarre reason started to pay the forces more, gen pop would be up in arms in a heartbeat.
n any case, what would these the working-class males be fighting for?
Hey, women can die too now. Equality and all that.
<br />1<br />tpbikerFree Member<br />I hate to say it but there is something alluring about that pic of mone above..
shudder.. I need a cold bath
As Sean Lock would say, "That's a challenging......"
You ought to see the other pictures the AI generated. 🫡
@fatmountain has it. Sadly, it was exactly the same in 1914 but they still went in their droves. - not that they had much choice. When the survivors came home they all got a pay cut because there was a recession.
Fight for this country? Naah, no thanks.
It seems there are a number of (ex)military personnel on here, so I'd like to ask some questions. <br /><br />For those of you who willingly signed up/volunteered, why did you do so, and what were your thoughts on how you would be deployed, and for what reasons? Did/do you agree with those reasons? Do you think your service was worthwhile? And did you ever experience any real front line battle action? Have you ever had to kill another human being 'in the line of duty'? If so, what are your thoughts on that? Do you think it was worthwhile/justified? Do you believe your decision to take up arms has achieved a positive outcome at all, for all involved? Do you feel used/exploited in any way, lied to, cheated? Did your opinions change following your service? Would you sign up again, knowing what you do now?
And the same questions to those who were conscripted/forced to do military service, more or less.
What are your thoughts on those?
Life in HM Forces (RAF) in my experience was a very positive experience. Training, discipline, travel and all the other good things.
It has to be remembered that the use of HM forces requires a political mandate and therefore the projection of force is a the decree of the politicians and therefore ultimately the constituent.
When the forces are used, they follow legal rules of engagement and are accountable for their decisions, which is why the training is so thorough.
So yes, very positive and I would do it all again in a professional capacity.
The prospect of un motivated civilians being given weapons is not a great position, especially in today's mentality.
To recruit & retain, a big lever is a pension scheme like AFP75. People stayed, just to reach that.
Now people chase the instant big cash, which the gov departments will never be competitive with. That is also happening in Industry where the final salary pensions have been quietly scrapped.
The youngsters will go through their working life very differently to my generation.
Dictator for life Farage.
He actually looks the part.
@brownperson that's a very long list of questions that to answer honestly would make a very long and boring post. I'd happily chat about these things face to face over a beer, but I'm not going to spend an hour or more typing a humongous reply to some deeply personal questions and have it picked over by some of the usual suspects on here.
I do have to say that it feels like there is an undercurrent of prejudgement in the way you have worded that. That would I'm afraid make me a little guarded in my replies. If you're ever near south Shropshire, give me a shout and we can chat over a curry and beer, and I can better judge your character and motivations before I bare my soul!
The very short answer for me is I am proud of my service and would do it all again in a heartbeat. I spent my whole career in counter terrorist bomb disposal and know for an absolute fact that my service saved lives.
A lot of those questions I would not want to talk about in public, but the core of why joined the reserves was because I saw a chance to use my civilian skills in a more focussed, meaningful way than I had with my day job.
That AI picture of Farage as Dictator for life...What's going on with that image of the soldier top left? Are those bat? bird? wings, why has he got those? Why is he carrying a candle? and why is he kneeling?
WTF
I massively appreciate what everyone who goes into the military. It has many appeals to me but I would struggle with not questioning things which is what put me off when I was at uni.
This is a worthwhile read.
https://gutenberg.ca/ebooks/butlersd-warisaracket/butlersd-warisaracket-00-h.html
Jamj1974
If you were in the position of the ukrainians when an agressor has invaded would you still refuse to fight to protect your children?
I agree with you about fighting outside of the UK but after an invasion would you still refuse? Only a theoretical point of curse
Anyway the wars already been lost and we didn't know we were fighting it 🙂
Can't see them bombing Londongrad in a hurry.
Anyway this has made me remember about that 2000AD - story Invasion ,that I loved as a kid:-)
I think @tjagain makes an important distinction. I wouldn't support conscription in the UK as a normal thing. But if Russia had battered its way through France and was busy reading the "So You Want to Drive a Cross-Channel Ferry" annual for boys, then I'd expect the answer would be different.
I work a few American ex-services and they certainly seem to get better looked after PRIOR to enlisting.
For example: They will pay for the entirety of your college degree and give you support payments through the ROTC.
https://www.goarmy.com/careers-and-jobs/find-your-path/army-officers/rotc.html
I also thought it would be interesting to compare the size reduction of the US armed forces vs the UK armed forces.
Looking here https://usafacts.org/articles/is-military-enlistment-down/ and https://www.statista.com/statistics/579773/number-of-personnel-in-uk-armed-forces/ it looks like the numbers have reduced at a similar-ish rate.
For example: They will pay for the entirety of your college degree and give you support payments through the ROTC.
Not quite as generous, perhaps but there is a similar university sponsorship scheme here for potential officers. UOTC members also get paid and shit loads of free 'adventure training' (skiing etc).
https://jobs.army.mod.uk/regular-army/what-you-get/bursaries-scholarships/
if you talk about fighting for this country, taking back our own land which was stolen from us, smashing the corrupt, incompetent ruling elite, maybe I’d sign up for that
No one's stopping you comrade - crack on!
I've discussed my service to that detail with a handful of civilians; one was my best mate, the rest were part of the medical/therapy chain.
Even my best mate struggled to wrap his head around some of it, the reality is only others who've walked a similar path understand it especially when you talk about mistakes and regrets.
Even Ms. RM and I have rarely spoken about it as it's a world that she need not know exist.
So I won't be sharing it an internet forum with strangers. Nor will I be as gracious as others and extend an invitation of a chat over food.
But much like @blokeuptheroad, I'd do it again in a heartbeat, even the shitty painful parts, the parts I regret, and despite some of the anger and resentment that I feel towards politicians of all colours.
That job showed me the true breadth of human nature and brought some of the most exceptional human beings into my life, to experience life with some of them again would be a privilege I'm proud of what I accomplished with them, and where we failed, I'm glad we were by each others side as it went sideways.
You're more eloquent than me RM. Well said 👍
if you talk about fighting for this country, taking back our own land which was stolen from us, smashing the corrupt, incompetent ruling elite, maybe I’d sign up for that
No one’s stopping you comrade – crack on!
You sure? I feel fairly certain someone would stop him - armed rebellion is generally frowned upon.
Civilian courts would often waiver sending young offenders to prison if they agreed to complete their military service in high discipline units, can you imagine what sort of soldiers they made?
An equivalent practice happened here. Young offenders were offered the option of joining the regular army to avoid incarceration - one consequence of this was some important early work on learning difficulties was done in the military because they identified this as the cause of many the behavioral problems.
Brownperson
I am not military but I cared for a lot of WW2 veterans who would have been conscripts. Army, royal navy and some merchant navy who had been on the arctic convoys. Different times but every one of them who had seen active service were deeply damaged by their experiences with PTSD as it would be called now. this all came out in later years in them. those who had killed in particular were deeply traumatised
these where guys who knew they were "on the right side" as well
One would hope aftercare is better now but given how many ex servicemen end up homeless I do wonder
I think those of us that have ne3ver served will never be able to understand except on a very superficial level but there are faces I have in my head of these guys I will never forget
@brownperson, you'd struggle to get answers to most of those questions face to face with someone you know let alone a cycling forum.
I have thought for a while about your post and whether or not I would reply. I served, in the army, during the 90s, and did a couple of tours of FRY. I cannot change anything and am perfectly happy in what I have done and where I am today. I have the utmost respect for those who've served after me during the 2000s as their tours were different than mine. I still work in Defence and have daily contact with serving members of the forces and the issues that they have in their world which are different to mine in the 90s, the general consensus is it's shit but that was the same 30 years ago...😃
To the original thread. Conscription, is that the right question to be discussed as that is unlikely to happen IMO, a civil defence force though? I think it has the wrong naming, if we are asking for volunteers to help with jobs that traditionally the military get dicked with, such as flooding, then I think there would be a lot more buy in.
Probably not. It would make irritable no doubt, but I'd make sure I got a high fibre diet and ate some prunes.
To the original thread. Conscription, is that the right question to be discussed as that is unlikely to happen IMO
I believe that the thread was started in reference to a comment made by Gen Saunders in which he suggested that 'conscription would be needed to fight a future war with a country like Russia'.
I would have thought that it was a given that Britian would introduce conscription if the UK was engaged in a full scale war against a country such as Russia.
Has there been a time in recent history when the UK was at war with a formidable military opponent and there wasn't conscription?
I'm not sure that the point Gen Saunders made needed to be made. Although I guess the size of the armed forces required to repel a Russian attack (which imo will never happen) is open for debate.
It be Inclined to turn around and run and take out a few of our own assholes allegedly running this country first before going after another country's nut case.
For those on this thread who think that 'this country isn't worth fighting for', if the alternative was life under Putin, I would think that was a battle worth fighting. Michelle Mone et al are total amateurs compared to Vlad.
Whilst our political leaders are weak and low level corrupt and self serving, there are many worse places to live.
I would take broken Britain over most other countries in the world. Yes, there are better places out there, but not in every respect, and they are all allies or at least friendly.
There isn't a single country that we might class as hostile that would provide a better regime or ideology than our own, particularly if they were an occupying force. If they treat their own people so poorly, how do you think they would treat us?
The fact that you can openly berate our political system and the state of the country is in itself worth fighting for when the alternative would be persecution, torture, imprisonment or worse simply for writing much of the entitled bollocks spouted on here. Entitled it might be. Bollocks for sure. But it is still a freedom that we should not take lightly.
For those on this thread who think that ‘this country isn’t worth fighting for’, if the alternative was life under Putin, I would think that was a battle worth fighting.
That is because no one really believes that Russia would attack and invade the UK. I am sure not even Gen Sanders believes that.
Why would Russia even want to do that - what possible advantage could there be for them in occupying the British Isles?
It sounds like just a pointless waste of limited resources, for almost no benefit, over a tiny piece of overcrowded land, and with very little to offer the Russians.
If the Russians want to start wars expanding their existing boarders would make much more sense than an airborne/sea invasion of a few islands with unpredictable weather in the North Atlantic. Especially into areas with vital natural resources.
Any hostile action from the UK can be dealt with where and when it occurs.
I reckon that it is misguided British exceptionalism fueled by petty nationalism which makes some people believe that the Russians are desperate to invade the UK.
Besides, the UK has the nuclear deterrent, the Russians would never invade because of it. Apparently.
So yeah, people make flippant remarks because they know deep down that it will never happen. It's not a reflection imo of what their attitude would be if it did actually occur.
.