I'll keep this as brief as I can seeing as the amount of email I have on the subject is extensive, but the purpose of this post is purely feedback on a recent purchase from the classifieds. In hindsight, there are things I should have spotted and been wary of but hindsight's a wonderful thing.
So I bought a pair of brakes from an STW forum member and to get straight to the crux, the original advert stated;
"Used, but very very good condition, don't think they have any marks or real signs of wear on them anywhere"
The pictures in the advert show an immaculate pair of brakes, albeit does state "not my pictures" (not "Not my brakes").
So from this, I'm under the impression that these brakes are immaculate (hindsight: should have asked for pictures for confirmation, but people on STW are honest, right?). So the ensuing bit of haggling over extra money for a pair of 160mm Avid rotors, plus extra again to swap one of those for a 'nearly new' 180mm rotor (actually £11 extra, for what turned out to be a seemingly well used Super Star rotor [£13 retail]) was agreed on the impression that this is an immaculate pair of brakes without "[b]any[/b] marks or real signs of wear on them [b]anywhere[/b]". I think it is important to recognise at this poiint that this sentence started with "don't think...." - throwing a nice bit of ambiguity in there.
So the brakes arrive, and they're dirty for starters. No big deal. But after a wipe down it turns out that actually there are marks and signs of wear all over them. Scratched levers - on the carbon blades and quite deep scratches on the lever body from where, I'd say, the bike has taken a tumble. But worse are the callipers - lots of scratches and on one at least, heavily pitted paint work.
After pointing this out to the seller, his reply was [i]"Its just a bit of dirt"[/i] followed by accusations of going looking with a microscope. And more [i]"Most of the lever ones look more like irregularities in the carbon then actual damage. The pitted calliper also looks more like a rough paint job then damage. The other calliper however does look a little scratched. It does look completely superficial, and also upon mounting to the bike would be almost impossible to see."[/i]
At this stage I had offered my opinion on what the brakes were actually worth and asked for either a refund to that amount OR a full refund (less his postage costs) on return of the brakes, the latter option as I'm not trying to screw the guy over myself but if he believes they are worth that much then he's welcome to sell them on again. This was refused point blank, despite his claimed disappointment that we're both not happy with the situation. I can tell you who I think is a lot happier from this sale.
Finally, I was offered £10 on the basis that its a done deal and I don't slander the guy on the internet. Well, £10 is neither here nor there and I never had any intention of 'slandering' the guy but if he chooses to advertise and sell goods dishonestly on an online forum, I'm well within my rights to share my experiences.
It doesn't sit well with me being seemingly so pedantic about some scratches which ultimately don't matter to the performance of the brakes, but that's quite a lot of money I've paid for a set of brakes. A seller has a responsibility to be open and honest about the condition of their goods and if this was the retail world no one would stand for it, so how is it acceptable through classifieds?
In my opinion, its really not.
Note to the seller: sorry if this isn't the good karma you were after - seems ironic asking for that to me.
Allways get proper pictures if you are buying something especially at that cost.
Its very easy to check your post history and work out who this is as well
to me - 50 / 50 - he wasn't as honest as he might have been, you are unrealistic and should have got proper pics before buying from the ad
Used, but very very good condition,[b] [i]don't think[/i][/b] they have any marks or real signs of wear on them anywhere
Its the honesty thing that bugs me, Teej. And the refusal to own up afterwards. I know I should have asked for pics, but that's not dishonest - just naiive of me.
a good seller IMO would have gone for return and refund
Well "he's" live on the forum at the moment so I'm just going to stick the kettle on.
Anyone want tea?
FWIW you really should get photos as you acknowledge but for "him" to act like this is a bit off. Having said that its difficult to say for sure with out pictures of the actual brakes 😕
The original ad was very ambiguous and vague; I wouldn't buy from an ad worded like that and with pics that aren't of the said item. Maybe some photos of the real thing might help us judge how bad they are compared to the description.
As a rule, I think the seller should offer a refund in the interests of keeping this from becoming a bun fight and maintaining his good name; loose the battle and win the war scenario.
Its not as if he'd be losing though, eh?
Unless....
well it's obviously this thread so I think the tenner's gone
http://singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/fs-avid-elixir-cr-brakes-4
From YOUR description it sounds like the seller was a bit slippery but then it is buyer beware. I'll be suspicious of the seller in the future though I have to admit.
Pics!
Indeed - lets see some pics of the real thing
Perhaps he should 'go out of his way to help you out' and get more good Karma on his side!
The ad suggests that the brakes are in a similar condition to the ones in the pics, if not then a pretty poor show IMHO.
I know buyer beware and all that but come on, we have all sold stuff and honesty is the name of the game.
Hmmm - £150 for a set of front and rear Elixir CRs?
Should have looked on Merlin and saved yourself a few quid.
If the brakes are as bad as you say, then you have been bronzed my friend. Although the ad does say "not my pics", the implication is that the pics are very representative of the real thing.
Very bad form, especially offering £10 hush money.
Honesty is everything for STW classifieds. Buyer was probably a little naive not asking for pics, but if a seller says 'without any marks anywhere' then it's reasonable not to expect any.
Sounds like a lower price and sold with 'normal wear and tear' was possibly a more reasonable deal (but pics needed - one man's 'wear and tear' is a nother man's 'knackered'!).
As they brakes are on a set of bars that are clearly used i'd expect the brakes to be the ones for sale regardless of who the pictures belong to.
Why don't we have a sticky at the top of the classified section where people can leave good or bad comments about a sale, seller or buyer?
As they brakes are on a set of bars that are clearly used i'd expect the brakes to be the ones for sale regardless of who the pictures belong to
Yes, if not it's deliberately misleading.
[u]Always[/u] ask for pics of the actual thing you're buying. The one time that I didn't, I got sent brakes with mismatching rotors/missing rotor bolts from someone who then ignored my emails seeking redress. Ended up selling them on again separately. Caveat emptor and all that.
a good seller IMO would have gone for return and refund
A good seller would post pics of the actual items for sale, without being asked. To be fair, I would expect better from Real Man, he's a regular. But, yeah, I'd refund in full if someone asked me. As indeed I have done on ebay
Have we got ACTUAL pics of the brakes to look at by any chance?
#
BoardinBob - MemberWhy don't we have a sticky at the top of the classified section where people can leave good or bad comments about a sale, seller or buyer?
Posted 2 minutes ago # Report-Post
Just post on the for sale thread. thats what I do.
then anyone can search that sellers previous sales and see how they have gone.
I'll do high quality pics if the seller chooses to accept my offer of refund - postage costs on the basis of them not showing [u]any marks, anywhere[/u] (and that shouldn't sound like I found a micro-scratch...). As yet, unattached to any bike of mine I should say.
Otherwise, I can't be arsed any more - he sent them, he knows (or should know) what condition they're in.
I'll reserve judgement until pics are seen BUT if it's how you describe then it's dodgy and the seller shouldn't be trusted in future, especially when a bribe is offered for your silence.
I've been in the position where the buyer wasn't happy with my description, I covered postage and refunded no probs. it taught me a lesson - post as many pics as you can or at least send a load through before money changes hands even if what your selling is £15 (as it was in my case)
well, hes gone onto my 'tool' list (the seller)
to offer a partial refund means that they knew they werent in the condition they described them as. if they really arent that bad, why didnt he accept them back? he didnt even have to pay postage.
OP, If an ad states
, not "this model of brakes" or "brakes similar to these but not these" then I'd expect it to be "These Brakes". Particullarly when buying second hand."these brakes"
I believe you are completely within your rights to ask for your money back.
The brakes that you bought have not been supplied.
The idea of money in return for keeping quiet doesn't have a good ring about it; be interesting to see exactly how that was worded by the seller.
And as the OP states, there's quite a distinct difference between the phrase "not my pics" and "not my brakes", with the former coming across as deliberately opaque.
And for a seller to include "don't think" is pretty crap - I'd say sellers should check items before you post the ad. Again, the language used in the ad (if it the one linked to RealMan) is either poorly thought through or disingenuous
On the plus side there's some great deals on that merlin link 🙂
I wonder if there is some way of incorporating a feedback bit to the accounts, maybe even if it was a simple website that could be linked which you could log in to and leave feedback on each purchase.
At the simplest level it could just be a link in the account section, to the feedback site.
Otherwise, I can't be arsed any more - he sent them, he knows (or should know) what condition they're in.
But [u]we[/u] don't, and if you don't show us what you're on about we may well conclude that you're just being a bit of a tart.
It just goes to show that you can be dicked over by a [b]P[/b]remier member too. Just leave some [s]bad [/s]relevant feedback on the For Sale thread so that anyone searching for that user in future will know what went on.
full refund (less his postage costs)
as a seller i would always do this.
as a buyer i have once - and was in a similar situation to OP (seatpost with 1mm deep " superficial scratches") which has made me a lot more wary of the classifieds.
I would have expected better from a regular...
lets see some pics though OP
I wouldn't be happy with any of that. I only ever buy from people who appear to be forum regulars, and based on that, and the price I would have expected them to be spanking.
The seller has been very short sighted and will hopefully act to remedy the situation quickly having read this thread.
I'll keep this as brief
Then... 😯
seeing as the amount of email I have on the subject is extensive, but the purpose of this post is purely feedback on a recent purchase from the classifieds. In hindsight, there are things I should have spotted and been wary of but hindsight's a wonderful thing.So I bought a pair of brakes from an STW forum member and to get straight to the crux, the original advert stated;
"Used, but very very good condition, don't think they have any marks or real signs of wear on them anywhere"
The pictures in the advert show an immaculate pair of brakes, albeit does state "not my pictures" (not "Not my brakes").
So from this, I'm under the impression that these brakes are immaculate (hindsight: should have asked for pictures for confirmation, but people on STW are honest, right?). So the ensuing bit of haggling over extra money for a pair of 160mm Avid rotors, plus extra again to swap one of those for a 'nearly new' 180mm rotor (actually £11 extra, for what turned out to be a seemingly well used Super Star rotor [£13 retail]) was agreed on the impression that this is an immaculate pair of brakes without "any marks or real signs of wear on them anywhere". I think it is important to recognise at this poiint that this sentence started with "don't think...." - throwing a nice bit of ambiguity in there.
So the brakes arrive, and they're dirty for starters. No big deal. But after a wipe down it turns out that actually there are marks and signs of wear all over them. Scratched levers - on the carbon blades and quite deep scratches on the lever body from where, I'd say, the bike has taken a tumble. But worse are the callipers - lots of scratches and on one at least, heavily pitted paint work.
After pointing this out to the seller, his reply was "Its just a bit of dirt" followed by accusations of going looking with a microscope. And more "Most of the lever ones look more like irregularities in the carbon then actual damage. The pitted calliper also looks more like a rough paint job then damage. The other calliper however does look a little scratched. It does look completely superficial, and also upon mounting to the bike would be almost impossible to see."
At this stage I had offered my opinion on what the brakes were actually worth and asked for either a refund to that amount OR a full refund (less his postage costs) on return of the brakes, the latter option as I'm not trying to screw the guy over myself but if he believes they are worth that much then he's welcome to sell them on again. This was refused point blank, despite his claimed disappointment that we're both not happy with the situation. I can tell you who I think is a lot happier from this sale.
Finally, I was offered £10 on the basis that its a done deal and I don't slander the guy on the internet. Well, £10 is neither here nor there and I never had any intention of 'slandering' the guy but if he chooses to advertise and sell goods dishonestly on an online forum, I'm well within my rights to share my experiences.
It doesn't sit well with me being seemingly so pedantic about some scratches which ultimately don't matter to the performance of the brakes, but that's quite a lot of money I've paid for a set of brakes. A seller has a responsibility to be open and honest about the condition of their goods and if this was the retail world no one would stand for it, so how is it acceptable through classifieds?
In my opinion, its really not.
Note to the seller: sorry if this isn't the good karma you were after - seems ironic asking for that to me.
I'd put it down as a learning experience, I'm not sure what advantage there would be to naming the guyas it might come across as sour grapes.
No, I don't think we can trust everyone who sells on the forum and I wouldn't buy with knowing the person reasonably well or without photos.
remind me never to buy owt off real[s]man[/s] boy.......... 😀
HE clearly doesn't need to name the guy as we all know who he is! someone has posted the original thread above!
Put the OP didn't name anyone, so the £10 is safe.
Cunning like a fox.
Cunning like a fox.
Yet with the features of a cuddly teddy bear and the grace of a swan.
As they brakes are on a set of bars that are clearly used i'd expect the brakes to be the ones for sale regardless of who the pictures belong to
Yes, if not it's deliberately misleading.
this i would assume those are the brakes for sale and someone else took the pics. I would not assume it means look this is what avid brakes look like and mine are the same type
As for the damage depends what they look like but it shows that even with a regular poster and a Premier you still need to apply caution
[s]It reads so far like the seller did try to mislead but I reserve judgement till I see the picture [/s]
[stw mode]I am looking at my pitchfork but not sharpening it yet[/stw]
OK so I'd better do this thread justice and post pics when I get home.
Don Simon - there's plenty more I could put! I was thinking of pasting in the entire email thread start to finish but there are better ways to spend a few hours of one's weekend. Oh wait...
At the end of the day, it's a simple mis understanding in the use of descriptive terminology. i.e. Seller should have added the word [i]"like"[/i] before he said
these ones
and instead of
but these aren't my pics
maybe
[i]
"these aren't pics of mine"[/i]
Because of error in descriptive terminology the OP didn't feel like he needed any more pictures as there's already 2 beautifully large, detailed images in the post.
If the OP was asking for more it would therefore come across as being a little bit special.
Maybe with the benefit of hindsight and a few of us agreeing with the OP he may swing around and both of you realise it as a bit of a misunderstanding.
EDIT which all the other negotiations have been aggravated by
If I've ever posted pics on an ad that aren't of the actual thing I'm selling (eg they're just to show which model/version of a part I'm selling) then I've been VERY careful to make that clear.
lordy me !
it's a simple mis understanding in the use of descriptive terminology
very very good condition, don't think they have any marks or real signs of wear on them anywhere
this, coupled with the pics of the actual brakes should allow us to work out who misunderstood what
(am I too late for a biscuit?)
Whats the point of posting a picture of someone else's brake set up ???
If Im selling something and haven't got round to taking my own pics I will normally post a link to the item being sold at a shop like crc et al as it gives the prospective buyer an idea on what they should be like and also an idea on the price new.
get some pics up and then im sure the stw pitchforks will well and truly be out.
poor skills in my opinion !!
oops .. I forgot about that other bit.
First impressions innit
Get taken in by the 1st phrase or two and the big shiny pictures
Point proven like
Only just seen this. Haven't read the OP, or any of the replies.
Yes, I was the seller.
I sold the brakes for what I thought I could get for them. I described them accurately to my knowledge. I did not intentionally lie. I've sold and bought plenty of things on STW, and never had any complaints or issues.
I was communicating with the buyer at the time this thread was posted, and had made him an even higher partial refund offer, but never got a reply (unless you count this thread).
The actual marks the buyer is complaining about are nearly non-existent IMO. The only complaint of his that had any grounds was a bit of scratching to the underside of a calliper, which is why I offered the partial refund, as I missed it, and that is entirely my fault. I think what happened was he agreed to purchase them, paid for them, received them, then saw a better deal elsewhere so went over them with a magnifying glass trying to find a reason to demand a refund. I still would describe the brakes as being in very good condition.
That is why I decided not to issue a refund.
I'm not going to bother staying on this thread, I just thought it deserved a reply, and I think I deserved a chance to defend myself. Two sides to every story and that.
WE NEED PICS SO WE KNOW WHO TO LYNCH!
(realman - I preferred the original ending to your post 🙂 )
Why did you edit out this bit.....?
I know the buyer and have ridden with him quite a few times. A more straight-up guy you'll never meet. However, your rather dodgy sales practices mark you down as something else.RealMan - Member
I think what happened was he agreed to purchase them, paid for them, received them, then saw a better deal elsewhere so went over them with a magnifying glass trying to find a reason to demand a refund.
Haven't read the OP, or any of the replies.
Might be worth a look 😉
Well we can all draw our own conclusions when the photos are posted up can't we?
Ok, fine, had a quick scan of the thread.
Yes, maybe the way I said "these pics aren't mine" or whatever, was slightly vague, although surely it's obvious what I meant.
Had plenty of other people who asked for pictures and got them, and I was emailing quite a few people at the time, so I think I just got confused and thought the buyer had already seen pictures of them.
But as quite a few of you say, if the brakes are actually battered to pieces then I'm in the wrong, if they're not, the buyer is in the wrong. So I think my description is fairly irrelevant, just a side note, and I will make sure I'm crystal clear from now on.
That is, if the buyer hasn't destroyed my reputation completely with this thread.
If you think the brakes are really worth what you sold them for, offer a full refund and sell them again - but this time with actual photos?
You're doing quite a good job of that yourself.RealMan - Member
That is, if the buyer hasn't destroyed my reputation completely with this thread.
Realman -
Hopefully Jimmy will post the pics and then we will see where the truth lies. Or have you got pics to post?
^^^^^^^^ He speaketh sense. ^^^^^^
Or have you got pics to post?
this from tandem
Had plenty of other people who asked for pictures and got them
this from seller, means he has so a comparison of seller and buyer pics would resolve all I think
1.
and had made him an even higher partial refund offer, but never got a reply
The even higher £15 offer which you offered after saying you were tired of my insults? I did reply, so in case you really didn't see it:
From: James Hatfield (xyz@hotmail.co.uk)
Sent: 13 January 2012 12:31:33
To: Humby George (xyz@xyz.uk)Insults? I'm only stating facts. In that sense your original advert is the biggest insult.
All the best,
Jim
2.
paid for them, received them, then saw a better deal
Change that to paid for them, received them, then realised the goods didn't fit the description.
3.
saw a better deal elsewhere so went over them with a magnifying glass
and
The actual marks the buyer is complaining about are nearly non-existent IMO.
[url= http://www.flickr.com/photos/74342282@N04/ ]Make your own minds up people.[/url]
first time on flickr, so hope the pics show.
EDIT: Goddamit I hate this shit. I feel like such a pedant, but FFS...
They are shagged, give the bloke his money back you ****
LOL - I've just seen the URL of the photo posted by the seller.[img] 
[/img]
[img] 
[/img]
Wow. They're pretty knackered.
Only just seen this. [b]Haven't read the OP, or any of the replies.[/b]
*cough* Bullshit *cough*
...oh and I cannot believe you ripped off the guy from Metallica.
That is, if the buyer hasn't destroyed my reputation completely with this thread
I gave you ample chance before this thread started and as I said all along, I've only stated facts.
Shagged.
Give the OP his money back and stop dissembling, if you really care about your reputation.
I don't know him well but jimmy strikes me as a straight up guy...and old/mature enough not to behave as realman suggests.
realman is IIRC quite young? Not as young as he looks in [i]that[/i] pic of course 😛
first time on flickr, so hope the pics show.
From the pics the most noticable things are.
1. Laminate floors always look crap.
2. Use reflectors or a light box to avoid harsh shadows.
3. They look well used and if this was the description used on which the price was based, then I'd be pissed off paying top dollar.
very very good condition, don't think they have any marks or real signs of wear on them anywhere
they may well be in good working condition, but they clearly have marks on them.
It now all comes down to price and how much RealMan values his reputation.
Got to love the internet.
shame the only thing that will happen to realman is he'll come back as realman2 or some other psuedonym, as he will now be added to most peoples shonky list
they look pretty ropey to be honest.
do the right thing real[s]man[/s]boy, accept that you are wrong, here's a chance to become a realman....... 😀
very very good condition, don't think they have
any marks or real signs of wear on them
anywhere
this is clearly not accurate. refund and proper apology required...
hmmm, I would have described them as "used in good condition, normal wear and tear"
Whilst having to sell them again is a pain, I do think it would be best to refund. You know what this forum is like and as a regular your reputation is worth more than a few quid. Alternatively refund to a satisfactory amount as the brakes still work and they will get more scratches. Check ebay and this forum for a fair price.
Look pretty much like what i would expect second hand tbh - caliper aside- ie wear and tear /signs of use
they do not look like this
very very good condition, don't think they have any marks or real signs of wear on them anywhere
Do the right thing RM and sort it
FWIW I like your presence on here but we all make mistakes. How you deal with it is how you will be judged IMHO.
Both of you learn a lesson - make sure the person has pics and all this could have been avoided
They certainly are not "shagged" or "ropey" they are just used, if you ride a bike stuff looks like that.
Not good at all. I'd be really pissed.
Jimmy - suggest you keep an eye on his postings for a while and post a link to this thread when he offers things for sale
There's a lot to be said for posting positive feedback when we get excellent service from a seller, and the opposite applies.
To me they are in good used condition. A bit both ways perhaps but for the price and description I would be disappointed to get those.
Both of you learn a lesson - make sure the person has pics and all this could have been avoided
Wise words indeed.
Clear cut. Give the chap his money back. Now.
Nothing lost, just resell them.
It looks like a clear case of dishonesty otherwise.
The brakes aren't as described, simple as that.
Refund
tails - Member
They certainly are not "shagged" or "ropey" they are just used, if you ride a bike stuff looks like that
That may be true but they most certainly are not:
very very good condition, don't think they have any marks or real signs of wear on them anywhere
The seller has embroidered the truth and the buyer made the schoolboy error of not getting pics of the real goods.
Either compromise or refund. I'd be looking for a refund.
1) realman. A Real Man would just do the right thing, if you do then you can easily come back from this. Everyone makes mistakes, it's how you put them right that counts.
2) To others I don't think you should take this as a typical example of classifieds behaviour. I've bought and sold a reasonable amount of stuff on here and never ever been burned. I just had a lovely experience with nedrapier, and I think the general behaviour on here is exceptional. Don't be put off.
exactly what boblo said. theyre not in that bad condition, why say they were almost new?
Full refund including postage.
To others I don't think you should take this as a typical example of classifieds behaviour.
Agreed, and I haven't thanked enough people for things bought in the past - I will do from now on.
Tails, they are not as described though. I keep my stuff mint and if sell anything on here photo every mark so the buyer knows what they are getting. If i bought based on realmans description I'd be well p1ssed off. Buyer has been naive, not my pics says to me this is what they looked like when I bought them used 6 months ago, but poor form by real man to use such pics and then argue on description.
Full refund, ebay, and OP doesn't paypal gift in future.
I think these are in similar condition
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Avid-Elixir-cr-Brakes-Grey-/260930265489
and on that basis realman owns the buyer 50 quid or full refund.