[Closed] "Women in sport"

Bar's open, everyone.

[quote=glasgowdan ]I may be missing something but the amount of media space drawing special attention to women in sport is, to me, sexist to a significant degree.

I wonder how this compares with the amount of media space about men in sport...

Aracer, the coverage of men in sport that you talk about isn't about their sex, it's about their biking. This is the way it should be whether male or female.

I know what you mean, I do wonder about the number of women only events, and how they get away with out being called sexist. I now they are trying to encourage more women to cycle, but I'm not entirely comfortable with all these events. I can imagine the outcry if there were men only events!!

I'm glad you understand my perspective 🙂 I ride with guys and girls, none of them get treated carefully because of their genes, they're just all 'those cool folk I ride bikes with'!

I'm also confused that because a sport might be more favoured by one sex or the other it becomes "sexist" I mean, i think it's safe to say that genetics, social pressures and physical attributes mean that more men are likely to be interested in say Bare knuckle fighting than women, but does that make that sport automatically "sexist"???

In fact, i'd say that mountain biking is one of less sexist sports, in particular in the uk, where we have an amazing tradition of brilliantly successful female riders. So, if you want to have fun, get muddy, and ride your mountain bike like a loon, come on down, what ever sex you are 😉

Could it be related to there being funding available to try and encourage more girls and women into sport. I don't have a problem with it, which woman only event would you like to enter? If women only events are one way of getting more women into a sport then so be it. Women have been treated like second class citizens for ever and now the focus is more on them it makes you feel uncomfortable, time to man up maybe.

I reckon we're all just going through a period of adjustment.

More media representation for Women is great, more participation is great too.

I reckon we've got another 5 years of increased media output dedicated to Women in Sport before it all kinda levels out and gets equal exposure.

I saw 6 Women out on bikes on my Ride today, that's up 70% than normal 8)

The bottom line is without male and female sport being separated there will be no women in elite sport, physically we're very different there's no getting around that.

I think the purpose of female only groups is two fold. Competitively woman are not typically as strong and would find it difficult to compete with the men in a race situation, I can't think of anyone other than Beryl Burton that's held the absolute record for an event regardless of gender. I believe the difference would become less pronounced as you move to endurance events but it would still take an exceptional female athlete to win a mixed gender event.

On the social side of things it's probably more to do with encouraging people in an environment in which they are more likely to feel comfortable and less intimidated. I'd like to think that the less neanderthal fellas can just about manage an activity without turning it into a competition where we must assert our alpha maleness but there are an awful lot of men that feel the need to do exactly that and that's not really helpful if you're trying to encourage new people, particularly people that don't necessarily fit the established image of that activity into it.

I can't really see either as being anti male. There's no shortage of male events and despite the feeling you seem to have that female events are being more positively promoted I'm sure the balance of opportunities to participate and certainly prize money is still massively skewed in favour of men.

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I reckon we're all just going through a period of adjustment.

I'd agree with that although I think it'll take more like fifty years than five.

Have a chat with some of the ladies you ride with and get their perspective.
I was talking about lack of female participation in sport yesterday with a couple of the female riders in my club (we have a women-only group which was recently formed following increased demand).

Basically, there's a massive under-representation in cycling among women - due mainly to there being many more barriers than men face - many of them cultural, some of them self-imposed to a degree, some of them around safety.

Having a big focus on women-only events is about getting round these barriers and driving up participation. Mixed events would not get round these barriers - clearly they're not, otherwise we wouldn't have such a disproportionately low number of women riding.

As above. The focus and extra attention at a gender level is there because cycling is massively male orientated. Half the time there *isn't* a women's race and when there is it's not publicised in the same way, the same hype doesn't build up around it, there are vastly smaller amounts of money pushed into it and as a result the women earn a lot less.

Even if the extra media attention were over-compensation (which it isn't), it needs to be to attempt to narrow the gap.

[i]I reckon we've got another 5 years of increased media output dedicated to Women in Sport before it all kinda levels out and gets equal exposure.[/i]

That's a lovely, but hugely ambitious timeframe. If you reckon that in 5 years time we'll be watching the Women's tour de France on prime time TV with the women earning millions and driving around in free Jags then can I come and live in your world please. 😉

It's the segragation that's the problem. If everyone competed together then women wouldn't get ignored because they are women, they'd get ignored just like all the blokes who were at the back, by miles.

Ironically... Jenny Tinmouth is riding for Honda in Bsb this season on a decent bike. She won't get ignored as she's the only woman.

[i]"Isn't the definition of sexism treating someone different because of their sex?"[/i]
Err, no 🙄 It's putting someone at a [b]disadvantage[/b] because of their gender

[i]So does anyone else feel uneasy about the amount of anti-male activities that exist in biking?[/i]

This is, to be fair, utter bobbins. There are no restrictions whatsoever to men in biking.

Don't confuse feminism with being anti-men.

Ummm.

Socially I ride with men, predominantly, but if I was to enter a competition then I'm much more likely to try a ladies only event first.

Mountain biking is not a sexist sport in it's nature (though there can be the odd pocket of alpha competition - sweary northerners anyone? :lol:) but really you don't get to realise this until you get involved. In the meantime, women only stuff can really help promote the sport we all love.

Treat them all equally to see how strong they are. Wrestling anyone? 😆

The problem is that funding in sport is working on a similar model to actors in hollywood. It is a simple fact that someone like Tom Cruise or Russell Crowe will draw in the crowds just by the simple fact they're in the movie - irrespective of how good or bad the movie is - and lets face it both of these actors have been in some really crap movies that have been financial successes. Sport is the same, they will pay more to a sporting star simply to draw in more crowds and sponsorship. Therefore it is difficult for the people in the business side of sport to pay the same for women as for men as they can't make the business case work - there is a finite pot of money and they want to get the biggest names in to attract the biggest revenue. Nobody really thinks women should earn less than men in sport, its just the way the finances work they can't operate a model where men and women sportsters earn the same. As soon as women football pulls in the same crowds and sponsorship as mens football they will always earn less.

Its not about sport or sexism. Its about money and business. And business isn't sexist, racists or any ist. If it makes money its all good.

Treat them all equally to see how strong they are. Wrestling anyone?

As an example, I am not getting in the ring with Rhonda Rousey, she'd hurt me in a great many ways!

On topic, I often wonder what is the desired outcome for all the increased attention? Is it more women in sport/cycling in general or more racing either at grassroots/national/pro level?

True wobbliscott, exceptions seem to exist for women happy to exploit their other attractions, Kournikova syndrome. These women do nothing to improve the public's perception of female athletes success and hard work.

Anything that encourages more women to get involved in sport is a good thing. I can appreciate that women would like to be involved with women only gripes grom time to time. I'd have to admit I'd find it a bit odd to ride in a group with mostly women so why wouldn't they feel the same ?

I don't know... I take my baby to toddler play groups regularly where it's almost all women, and I don't find it odd in the slightest. Everyone's just parents taking their kids for some play time.

Most people still see 'gender'... my perception is that we should just see 'people'.

Treat them all equally to see how strong they are. Wrestling anyone?

What about curling? Why separate events for a sport that is about skill and not speed, strength, or endurance? Or chess for that matter?

Having ridden with women on quite a few occasions, there's no doubt that they can comprehensively kick my ass at any time.
I'm not embarrassed about it, I just don't have the fitness, never have. As regards women in sport in general, I find myself preferring to watch women's events, like tennis, cycling, football, athletics, etc, because I find them more entertaining, same with films, I go to see a film because the subject attracts me, not who the lead is, in fact having Tom Cruise is less likely to have my interest in a film than, say, Susan Sarendon, Sigourney Weaver or Angelina Jolie.
But perhaps that's just me.

True wobbliscott, exceptions seem to exist for women happy to exploit their other attractions, Kournikova syndrome. These women do nothing to improve the public's perception of female athletes success and hard work.

And you don't think Beckham and the rest don't do the same? Kournikova would be very stupid not to make the most of her looks while she can, and why shouldn't she?

Sailing, 3 day Horse eventing to name but two where the genders compete equally. Danicka Patrick showed that motor-racing should be.

physically we're very different there's no getting around that.

I saw 6 Women out on bikes on my Ride today, that's up 70% than normal

Normally you see 3.5 women each time?

🙂

Sailing, 3 day Horse eventing to name but two where the genders compete equally. Danicka Patrick showed that motor-racing should be.

I'm surprised there aren't more competitive female motorcyclists - if 1.58m/51kg Dani Pedrosa can be competitive at a top level, it's clear that physical size and strength is not the most important factor.

brooess
Have a chat with some of the ladies you ride with and get their perspective

Er, anyone else see the flaw in that^^ plan? Not only would it require us to have female riding friends, but we'd have to TALK to them as well?? #tooshy 😉

It's a popularity thing.

Women's tennis is cra% compared to Men's tennis.

Women's tennis is excellent compared to women's tennis.

Still think they should win 3 sets instead if 2 during Wimbledon if they want the same prize money.

Then we can see sweat... Ho ho hum...oops sexist. Then we can see men and women sweat? Wrong forum/website.

moose - Member

Treat them all equally to see how strong they are. Wrestling anyone?

As an example, I am not getting in the ring with Rhonda Rousey, she'd hurt me in a great many ways!

I would but then I like paaainnnn ... from woman. 😆

Having said that my ex was very strong to the point that I could not stop laughing when she beat me in arm wrestling.

irc - Member
What about curling? Why separate events for a sport that is about skill and not speed, strength, or endurance? Or chess for that matter?

Ya, those should not be separate events. If they are in a team are they allowed to do high five chest bump? 😀

I've often thought that when it comes to WC DH the female riders would benefit from racing in amongst the males - keep thier own championship and medals etc - at least for the meantime, but the order down the mountain based on Quali time - I seem to recall Manon and Tanhee being in the top 15-20ish overall??? They'd get a fairer stab at screen time rather than a few mins at the start and profile sells bikes and profile means £ in MTB rather then outright results.

I seem to recall Manon and Tanhee being in the top 15-20ish overall???

In the world champs last year Manon would have come in 68th in the mens.

Ah, probably not made the 'full run' bit of the show then.

On a different "women in sports" note I see that WEC (sports car racing) have decided to drop "Grid Girls". About bloomin time. Maybe F1 will finally take note?

Semi-related, the one time I have free to take my son swimming, it's a female only session. WTF is that about?

And Michelle Mouton.

A girl I was at school with completed the 134km route on the tour de Flanders sportive this arvo..

int wimmin brilliant

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[quote=mogrim ]I'm surprised there aren't more competitive female motorcyclists - if 1.58m/51kg Dani Pedrosa can be competitive at a top level, it's clear that physical size and strength is not the most important factor.

Size maybe not, how do you know he's not strong though? My understanding was that motorbike racing is incredibly physically demanding.

[quote=glasgowdan ]I don't know... I take my baby to toddler play groups regularly where it's almost all women, and I don't find it odd in the slightest. Everyone's just parents taking their kids for some play time.
Most people still see 'gender'... my perception is that we should just see 'people'.

Well you're like one of the minority of women who do male dominated sports then. I wonder whether more men would be happy to go to dad and toddler play groups because they're normally put off by all the oestrogen (and yes I've been to a lot of singing, swimming, tumble tots etc. sessions where I've been the only male over the age of 5 and enjoyed the experience a lot, I'm unusual like you).

I may be missing something but the amount of media space drawing special attention to women in sport is, to me, sexist to a significant degree.

Are you against publicity or segregation in youth races because their ageist? 🙄

So we'll encourage loads more women into a supposed male dominated sport with groups that include/exclude on the basis of gender, thus making it more divisive rather than inclusive? Am I the only one that thinks that's a little but humorous?

Do you reckon women only stuff is discouraging women from taking up biking then, or simply not encouraging them? I think there may be one or two small flaws in your logic...

Maybe quite a few flaws but hey, life goes on. I'm a little tired of the gender politics surrounding the riding of bicycles, I guess it's another cause for the SJW's to lead a charge on.

I got massively neg propped by pinkbike readers when I suggested that there were less female riders because they fought for less money than the guys. Bit like tennis, why are they given less money? Who cares if they play less sets, is it not quality over quantity?

[i]There seems no end of women only races and events[/i]

Are you actually being serious, our have you checked?

[i]There are no major organised anti-female barriers in the sport that I am aware of[/i]

Why don't you try to make yourself aware of them then?

Look, pressure on young women is immense, to be thin, to be pretty, to be 'good' and 'worthy'. Sport for a lot, no most girls is just out of the question, for loads of reasons, not wanting to look like a tomboy, getting "ugly and muscley", being sweaty, dirty or just the fact that is not "for us" from disinterest from shops (getting better) and well meaning blokes helping us fix our bikes

Most of the advertising is based around danger and adrenaline, speed, and unwritten is that is "For Real Men Only"

Even going to a trail centre is sometimes a real pain, lost count of the times I've been tutted at (mostly on the ups) and I can remember maybe one or two blokes who've been genuinely encouraging and supportive.

I know a lot of this stuff is done to women by ourselves, and we're sometimes our own enemies, but some of us are trying OK? maybe instead of all the "why all this stuff for girls" just a simple shout of "GO GIRL" next next time you see one on the trail? would make us feel a bit more welcome?

just a simple shout of "GO GIRL"

I'd probably shout 'GO EMSZ!'

In the same way I never seem to shout 'GO BOY!' to men at races.

ie would just seem a bit weird, without overthinking it.

I'm a little tired of the gender politics surrounding the riding of bicycles,

Now if you think about women competing on bikes rather than riding purely for fun. I'd guess the number is more like 1:10 or worse! If a sports governing body (whatever the sport) wants to address that in order to grow participation why would anyone object? Unless of course their stereotypical attitudes are being called into question.

Afterall, as a "man" who is already engaged in cycling women only initiatives don't in anyway stop you just getting on your bike and riding.

Finally given all the bizarre dating and relationship threads on here, I suspect that there are many cyclists who might benefit from more interaction with women! But the misogynistic attitudes we see here from time to time might put some women off.

Finally given all the bizarre dating and relationship threads on here, I suspect that there are many cyclists who might benefit from more interaction with women!

Just actually spat my coffee out. 😆

I'm all for women in sport whether it's women only events or mixed. Whatever. I mean the state of the women in this country. It's incredible. Just compare them to women from other countries and it's like....oh my gawd why am I still living on this tiny little overcrowded island. Such an eye opener.

So wimmin of the United Kingdom don your spandex and do some sport. Whether it's star jumps or downhilling.

Finally given all the bizarre dating and relationship threads on here, I suspect that there are many cyclists who might benefit from more interaction with women! But the misogynistic attitudes we see here from time to time might put some women off.

I agree!! 😆

The last few replies have, completely unintentionally, been sexist. It's hilarious! People don't seem to get what it is. Shout 'go girl'? Why? You want people to highlight your gender and treat you differently?

Ok, so I started riding and sometimes racing mountain bikes a few years ago. There are fewer women but it's not intimidating. The races are on the same course as the men's races. It's ok. I'm neither rubbish nor the best. But I like it.

Then I won a road bike. Rode the Tour of Flanders 245km. Thought I'd have a go at a few sportives. Cannot believe how few women there were doing the long courses - got the proper look when I showed up for a 112 miler over Wrynose. I'm slightly taken aback.

Then I look back over this road riding thing. I come from a mindset where you practice and then you do. I trained and then I rode. The Ronde I did was 100km longer than the pro women's race. It wasn't easy, but it wasn't hard. I don't really understand completely why there are so few women road riding and racing but it is intimidating. And there are low expectations and I think that becomes self reinforcing. Which doesn't help.

I have been on some women only race training and it was fantastic - run by the Racing Chance Foundation for the race curious, in case anyone else wants to do it. The first road race in our local series was sold out with 80 women racing because so many of us have completed the training course. No crashes either. I think that this is the way to get the depth of field in races - more if us. And with an entry field that big we get more respect. So, women's race training is definitely a good thing.

When you have a disparity like 1,200 women to 30,000 men holding race licences it's completely the right thing. I don't think it's sexist. Something needs to be done. If the training I did is anything to go by there are women out there who want to have a go but need a way in.