[Closed] Winter car tyres - sorry

Wonder what insurance would say if you had an accident and had winter tyres on the front of a FWD car only?

I'd be interested to see if insurance companies used mixed winter and summer tyres for "wriggle room" in an accident that involved loss of control etc.

As an aside, insurance companies used to get a bit sniffy about winter tyres labelling them a modification - some even tried to charge more for having them on the car. Situation seems to have improved. Our car (can't believe I'm admitting this on a blokey internet forum) is insured through Sheila's wheels (wife is main driver, though it was bloody embarrasing when exchanging insurance details when she was not in the car!) and they now send out a winter email with advise as to how to stay safe in winter conditions (how to regain control in a slide, how to descend a steep icey slope - basic but quite good I thought) and they now recommend drivers consider switching to them for the colder months.

Changing car so have a set of 4 for sale - Leeds/Bradford area

Hankook W310 205/55 R16 - £100 5,000 miles only (no offers)

Pirelli Snowcontrol's on both my (FWD) cars and they have lasted the last 3 winters.

I drive a variety of cars for work including 4x4's and for snow/ice/cold I would choose my cars on winter tyres over the 4x4's on normal tyres.

And here's a video of a winter tyre test

[url= http://www.autocar.co.uk/car-video/sports-car-winter-tyre-test ]http://www.autocar.co.uk/car-video/sports-car-winter-tyre-test[/url]

*jealous*

All tyres should be like winter tyres all year round but they would wear out too fast so standard tyres are a compromise between grip and durability.

How warm was it?

My wife had a crash on the dual carrige way when a truck pulled out of a lay-by without spotting her and she had to emergency brake and change lanes to miss it.

Sounds like user error to me...

Hmm, maybe 12 deg C and a slightly damp surface. It feels fine at this time of year and it feels fine on summer tyres when it's warm. I think the flexible design of the tread and soft rubber just allows the tread blocks all to shuffle and the whole thing just takes on a massive slip angle. It was a proper tank slapper too at about 60, swung to about 45 degrees each way across both lanes (no other cars around fortunately) before going all the way round and off backwards to the right. Ended up hitting the barrier fairly gently and we were able to drive it out and stop in a lay-by to swap out a bent wheel (from mounting the kerb sideways / backwards at the end) before finishing our journey. Wouldn't like to do it again, that's for sure.

How warm was it?

probably overly simplified but 7 degrees tends to be the magic number

[img] http://www.e90post.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=590695&stc=1&d=1318165981 [/img]

however in the UK the average temp in the sort of areas where most of the population lives only drops below 7 degrees for a few weeks each year - but how do you guess which weeks those will be, I was driving in minus temps in late august this year. Thats why we don't have legislation for winter tyres, our climate doesn't warrant it. Most winters, on most journeys on any given day you could drive in temps that are well above and well below 7 degs

Sounds like user error to me...

Having only glanced at many of the replies (the driving heroes were getting too hormonal for me) one thing to bear in mind is what's recommended by the manufacturer. We have a Seat and it clearly states in the handbook that the owner should replace all 4 tyres with winters rather than two (FWD car). I have no interest in arguing the merits of either options - just something the OP (remember him?) might like to consider.

however in the UK the average temp in the sort of areas where most of the population lives only drops below 7 degrees for a few weeks each year

Average maybe, but an awful lot of people are out and about driving at 7-8am when it's the coldest part of the day. It's frequently below 7 degrees then, and often quite a long way below.

Average maybe, but an awful lot of people are out and about driving at 7-8am when it's the coldest part of the day. It's frequently below 7 degrees then, and often quite a long way below.

absolutely

Average temps... The "cold conditions" light on my car comes on at 5 degrees and there's only been one drive in the last month where it hasn't been on for the bulk of the drive. Sure the average will be skewed because of the population spread but that doesn't mean anything for anyone who lives further north. If I was a southern city dweller I'd not fit snow tyres- not even sure I'd have a car!

FuzzyWuzzy - Member

Are winter tyres OK to use when it gets milder - they just wear faster? Or is max speed restricted as well and MPG adversely affected?

Tyres vary tbh. I drove all summer on my Icebears on the Focus, they were great. Noisier than normal tyres, and probably a little less efficient, but still much better than a cheap allrounder tyre. Very little downside. Wear rate was reasonable too, not great but within spec for a midprice tyre. But that's obviously not a high performance car.

I only did a little warm road driving with the snowproxes and they worked extremely well- again, not as good as a similiar priced/quality summer tyre but more than acceptable. But then they're expensive and I suspect they're not lasting as well as the cheaper Icebears. To be fair the new car asks a lot more of them so it's not a totally fair comparison!

Worth mentioning they also work well in summer when faced with bad standing water or mud- which I found pretty useful at some mountain bike venues.

I'm currently looking at these snow rated all season tyres http://www.klebertyres.co.uk/KleberUK/front/affich.jsp?&lang=EN&codeRubrique=30032005121111

qwerty - Member

I'm currently looking at these snow rated all season tyres http://www.klebertyres.co.uk/KleberUK/front/affich.jsp?&lang=EN&codeRubrique=30032005121111

I use Hankook Optimo 4s which are very similar to the Klebers and they are a great all round tyre. The snow performance is on a par with cheaper winter tyres and they are great all year in wet conditions. Mine have done over 30,000 miles.

From personal experience I would recommend not mixing winter and normal tyres.

Last year I fitted snow socks to the rear of my RWD car, got to a roundabout and almost hit another car as couldn't turn or stop (got out and fitted the extra pair to the front) So I imagine the same will happen with winter tyres on only one axle. Also - IIRC the speed ratings are usually lower for winter tyres, not sure what the insurance company's view is on mixed speed ratings / and potentially load indexes.

I have put a full set of Dunlop Wintersports 4D on the car this winter; whilst I've not had any snow yet there is no doubt they provide significantly more grip in wet / cold / icy conditions and stopping distances feel like they are reduced.

wurzelcube - Member

Last year I fitted snow socks to the rear of my RWD car, got to a roundabout and almost hit another car as couldn't turn or stop (got out and fitted the extra pair to the front) So I imagine the same will happen with winter tyres on only one axle.

With RWD, sure, but what you describe is just what happens if you've got no grip on the most important wheels. You added grip to go but none to stop and turn so no wonder you had problems.

Speed ratings is an absolute nonissue unless you somehow find something that's not rated for 70mph. There's no problem with mixing ratings. If you need a reinforced tyre then the same applies for winter tyres but they're easily available.

Last year I fitted snow socks to the rear of my RWD car, got to a roundabout and almost hit another car as couldn't turn or stop

Couldn't turn or stop because the front wheels didn't have any grip, or because the back wheels had snow socks on?

Couldn't turn or stop because the front wheels didn't have any grip, or because the back wheels had snow socks on?

Well the nice thing about winter tyres is that you can drive much more quickly without going too fast for the conditions.. I'd have thought that was obvious.

Takes a long time to do a 30 mile trip at 10mph, it's much easier at 30mph.

😆
I feel a lot more comfortable doing 110 on the motorways now. Thanks.

You're a bell-end.

Maybe 15mph was too fast... but 18" low profile summer tyres on snow / ice provide very little grip.

Front tyres are important but I would argue the rears are just as important. It's personal opinion / preference. I've read many articles stating new tyres should always be fitted to the rear to minimlise the risk of oversteer - i.e. put the best grip on the back.

To repeat it is personal opinion and I'm not saying thay my opinion is the right one.

You're reported. 😆

wurzelcube - Member

I've read many articles stating new tyres should always be fitted to the rear to minimlise the risk of oversteer - i.e. put the best grip on the back.

I've read that too but it doesn't make any sense to me. Current car came with terrible tyres fitted on both ends, and was a liability- had to be babied everywhere when it was wet, and could slide at either end without very much provocation (heavy, reasonably powerful car which didn't help). But losing the front could be a big deal while losing the rear just meant a little bit of corrective steer.

So, I replaced the fronts so it would actually go round corners, but left the rears til I'd found out if it was a keeper. And sure, the rears would still slide if allowed to but it transformed the car.

Got the rears replaced, but for various reasons moved the horrible Autogrips to the front first. Terrible. Cornering was poor, braking was poor, power delivery was shocking (spin up in 4th gear? It's just a mondeo ffs!)

Bottom line is, that understeer was a much bigger problem than oversteer. Rear wheel slides were easily managed and less problematic, but also less common, since the rear's really just following the front whereas the front's dealing with steering and power.

Or in other words- no different from the motorbike, which always had a sticky tyre on the front, and the pushbikes.

Funny, we have similar discussion every winter (where to put better tyres) here in F**land as well... discussions tend to get nasty in page or two.

The safety agencies usually recommended to put better tyres on the rear axle as worse tires on front axle will not be noticed and it is beyond most drivers skills to correct the unexpected rear end slides.
BTW, it is illegal here to have mixed set of winter and summer tyres on.

Well just had the call to cancel my order despite me checking on the phone they could get them prior to ordering looks like its back to searching 🙁

[img] http://t1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcS673_1H77KhNH31bD2bcGlvs1LV3y0On7nrucHIJ93auxOr6sJ [/img]

These are the Sava Adapto HP's I got a month ago for 60 quid each from mytyres. They are now selling for over 80 quid each. If you think you need some tyres get them now.

Mytyres are usually the cheapest but I have used tyrewizard in the past for some Lassa Snoways ERA's in the past, great in the snow but not great at dispersing water as the snow melts and very soft.

Sorted , mytyres to the rescue 😉

Some crap talked about the need for FOUR winter tyres.

If the rear overtakes your front you are going to fast for the conditions and/or you are on ICE.

Winter tyres help with traction so you wont get stuck.

Going back to the first point slow down and apply smooth throttle and stering input. Drive the same style all year round and the best winter tyres will kill you just as quick.

I have two (front only). The rear are quality Conti's.

Ive read the 4 v 2x2 arguments. I personally think driving style is more key and at somepoint youll have to counter steer. If your rear steps out at 30mph on snow you shouldnt be driving at 30..

[quote=hora ]
Ive read the 4 v 2x2 arguments. I personally think driving style is more key and at somepoint youll have to counter steer. If your rear steps out at 30mph on snow you shouldnt be driving at 30..
But the point is that with 4 winter tyres it wouldn't have stepped out at 30.

I can't believe that it's so difficult to grasp the concept that 2 winter tyres are better than none and that 4 are better than 2. It can only come down to an interpretation of "value" - [i]is it worth buying another two winter tyres[/i]. We're talking in the region of what - another £150-200?? For the [i]added[/i] level of safety at limited speed or the ability to go faster with a similar level of safety as two tyres, is it worth it?

I bought two new tyres today. They weren't winter tyres as it'll be warm again by Friday.

Average maximum temperatures in England over winter are

December 7.2
January 6.9
February 7.2

Average minimums are

December 1.3
January 1.6
February 1.1

Plenty cold enough for winter tyres over those three months. I would say.

Just put some Yokohama W Drive tyres on my Vito... Only done a couple of journeys so far... However, it has been cold and icy. very impressed ! The same run in the car on Conti sport contacts,had my DSC ..and obvious huge skill having to intervene constantly.

is it worth buying another two winter tyres

if you can afford it, and you you have a crash that could have been avoided by better tyres, and someone gets hurt, then yes.

as a firm believer in sod's law, that's why i bought 4.

If you're going to keep your car for 2+ years, I really don't understand the brain ache of whether to fit winter tyres or the 2 v 4 tyre / cheap tyre v expensive tyre debates on here.

You'd happily spunk way more than a set of tyres on a push bike and you're talking about saving cash on one of the most important parts on a car..

By nice shiny black ones is my advise to the OP. Conti's winter contacts, Goodyear UGs and the Alpins do well in the reviews. Buy 4.

Ah well that's the beauty of an internet forum where everyone can offer their opinion - some folk will be right, some folk will be wrong and the truth will be blurred in the middle as us bystanders look on and shake their heads in wonder at the theories put forward.

On a fwd car it is immeasurably easier to control understeer than it is to correct oversteer - simple fact of physics, and it is a given to fit the best tyres on the rear.

I can comfortably hold or manage a fwd drive car using lift off oversteer on the track or induced oversteer if you prefer to call it so. In my MK2 golf i can induce it at 90mph with a gentle flick of the wheel or a dab using rear brake bias and for your average driver to safely correct it on the public highway would take balls the size of watermelons as it is the most unnatural correction in the world as you need to floor the throttle, this will help pull you out of the rear wheel slide whilst reducing the steering angle at the front (straighten up) but whilst you are doing this your car is travelling sideways along the public highway and the last time i looked there is only about 24ft of width on your average A class road, anyone who says they would prefer this to fwd understeer on public roads is a far better driver than myself and i would like some lessons asap please.

Below is copied from one of the better trackday coaching sessions but you will get taught exactly the same principle and theory at any track driving school in the country, In the past 10 years I've logged over 300hrs track time in various cars from my tuned to the bollox VW's (250bhp+ fwd of course) to RS4's, Lotus Exiges, Subaru tarmac spec, BDA MK2 Escorts, Alfa 75's, Lancia Delta Integrale's and quite a fair few various fwd hot hatches from most of the major manufacturers, i've driven at Knockhill, Curby, Brands Hatch, Cadwell, Mallory, Donnington, Silverstone, Nurburgring to name a few circuits off hand.

A question was asked by a forum poster about how he got into a spin, in a front wheel drive car on a roundabout at low speed and what he could have done to correct it.

A few points.

Oversteer only happens if you have less grip (for your requirement) at the rear of the car than the front.
Your requirement for grip is not the same throughout a corner, you generally need more front end grip on turn-in, equal grip on early entry and slightly more rear grip as you get fully into the corner.
The ratio of grip is not constant, when you accelerate it goes rearward, when you lift off it goes forward, when you brake it goes further forward still. This is irrepective of FWD/RWD/4WD.
If, by these actions, you move grip forward, you therefore take grip away from the rear.
Grip (traction) needs to be shared between cornering and acceleration on the driven wheels, the more you use for acceleration, the less you have available for cornering.

In the example above I am almost certain the reason for the oversteer was lifting off mid-roundabout. Moving more grip forward and taking it from the rear. It is possible to correct the oversteer with steering alone but you need to recognise the overtsteer very early and be pretty quick with the correction. In FWD or RWD you can add a little power and this will help correct the oversteer (in conjunction with the steering correction). In RWD this assumes you have not created the oversteer by excess power through the rear tyres and have created wheelspin. This works because adding a little power will move weight (grip) to the rear of the car.

If you add too much power in RWD you will create wheelspin, if you are in oversteer already this is hard to "catch" so your power application needs to be fairly mild.

In FWD, because the rear (skidding) tyres do not receive power you can add lots of power, adding weight and grip to the rear and negating oversteer. This also "pulls" the car out of oversteer. If you really get sideways you can prevent a spin by putting maximum power through the front tyres, causing them to lose traction and wheelspin thus they are skidding at the same or greater rate than the rear, so for a moment the car travels sideways, grip eventually return to the rear (as the car is gradually slowing) and the car gets pulled out of the oversteer.

If you are driving through a fairly shallow bend and hit a patch of slippy road surface the worse thing you can do is lift off the gas but this is the natural reaction of almost every driver and is the main cause of spins. If you keep your throttle foot where it is and correct with the steering you won't spin.

So...to recap for those who can't be arsed to read and consider themselves to be supreme driving gods and think the correct place to fit the grippiest tyres is on the front please read the following simple sentence.

FWD understeer is relatively easily controlled for just about any skill level of driver
FWD oversteer is harder to control on the public highway (nigh impossible) and will most likely involve you travelling backwards down the road into the path of an oncoming truck but that's perfectly acceptable as long as you only kill yourself thus removing your faulty genes from the human gene pool.

I'm correct on this matter, this is not open for debate in any shape nor form whatsoever.

Good night and drive safe.

😉

somafunk, you've driven a BDA Mk2 Escort ? You jammy git !! 😉

You can keep all the other cars, but a BDA was ( still is ) on my driving 'wish list'. I suppose owning a couple of Mk2 RS2000's in my younger years & being an avid rally follower has something to do with it.

I personally think driving style is more key

You can a perfectly diligent and safe in winter conditions when its just you on the road with 2 winters tyres, but the challenge comes from being in traffic around other road users.. that's the point that you really need all 4.

Traction to get started is the least important feature of a winter tyre imo (same as the 4wd argument) If you can get started, the other 90% of non-wintered tyre users can't, so your stuck anyway.. if you can't stop effectively in anything but a straight line or steer around immediate hazards (other road users caught out by the conditions or exhibiting "poor driving style") then that's a far larger problem and you might as well have not worried about getting start off traction in the first place.

mmannerr - Member

it is beyond most drivers skills to correct the unexpected rear end slides.

Mmm. Actually that's a completely legit point. I'm not a great driver but recovering slides comes very easily to me. I kind of assumed it's just an easy thing to do, but thinking about it from other people's reactions maybe not so much. Some side effect of all the time on motorbikes before I ever drove a car?

So maybe my experience isn't standard. But for me, in FWD, better tyres on the front- having tried both and found this massively better. But I'll think twice about assuming other folks will find the same.

Gary_C : Mate used to own a rather large car repair bodyshop in Brixton, London back in the 90's and rallied for 10 odd years, Did all the RAC's and various other championships - won his class in RAC using the BDA MK2 Escort and shamed many a full works 4wd car and driver, it was one of the most "sorted" BDA MK2's there was at the time - full works specification and very frightening and very unforgiving to drive for the unwary but once you got used to it it was an absolute hoot, i sorta learned how to drive properly in this at 23years old, lucky git eh 😀 - utterly fantastic engine that howled and screamed like a banshee, i only co-drove with him a couple of times as he scared the absolute crap out of me every single time without fail but to be fair to him he is a very safe and controlled driver with it, apart from the time he barrel rolled at 120 mph, he walked away with just concussion and his car was reshelled and rebuilt at huge expense within 2 weeks. He went through a fair few co-drivers as he knew how far he could push his car and many a co-driver refused to sit with him because of it, on one stage of the RAC in Galloway (on a stage he knew very well) he made 9 seconds on the full works 4wd teams and reduced his experienced co-driver to an actual gibbering wreck at the end of it - his average speed over the short stage was astonishingly rapid for a rwd car. Tiz a shame but he's sold his ABT tuned RS4 and SWB Quattro so i guess our balls-out track days are coming to a close, unless i can convince him to spend his pocket money on an Audi A3 3.2 turbo quattro so we still get our kicks as my little 200bhp Mk2 Golf just does not really cut it compared to the swb quattro, it's still fun but it doesn't scare you.

As some others have touched on, you can 'get away' with only fitting winter tyres only to the front, and drive very carefully in snow and ice.

However, when the snow has gone and you are barrelling down the M1 at 70mph and you have swerve, you try to correct the oversteer and at the point you actually broadside it might actually dawn on you that perhaps a similar amount of grip front and rear is a good idea and would give you a fighting chance. In the following moment you could either be stuffed into the barrier, or continuing on you journey smug that you have just saved a huge slide and are a driving god 😉

[i]My wife had a crash on the dual carrige way when a truck pulled out of a lay-by without spotting her and she had to emergency brake and change lanes to miss it. The car went into momentum oversteer and after 2 or 3 good attempts to catch it she finally lost it and we parked rear first into the central barrier[/i]

This car had equal grip and still lost it, now imagine the same scenario on an A road with the car broadsiding into oncoming traffic. There is some shocking stuff on youtube if you care to look for it, a little fishtail turns into a slide, then an HGV comes through the other way and completely obliterates the car.

I had a close call myself, 15mph in traffic and not accelerating or braking. Rear tyres slide sideways into the gutter leaving me gracefully sliding across the opposite side of the road with full opposite lock, and nosing gently into the hedge. Luckily the car coming the other way was being cautious and could stop, otherwise it could have been a huge side impact for me 🙁

[i]Bottom line is, that understeer was a much bigger problem than oversteer. Rear wheel slides were easily managed and less problematic, but also less common, since the rear's really just following the front whereas the front's dealing with steering and power.[/i]

Understeer doesn't need any skill to fix, you just lift off and unless you are being an idiot the grip will come back. Oversteer needs an understanding of what is happening, your 'average' driver won't realise that lifting off will make things worse and thats without all the confusing guff about 'steering into the skid' that gets spouted. (so the advice should be 'steer in the direction you want to travel during oversteer')

Most road users drive around on mixed tyres and budgets. The issues only arise if you drive too fast for the condition then said tyres are less forgiving.

People seem to think ABS/TC gives them a buy out of thinking brain ticket and drive waaay too quick in the rain for instance.

A sudden move at speed/motorway can cause ANYONE to auto over correct at any speed/condition.

If its a 30limit and snowy Id drive way below 30. 4 winter tyres would be great however it wont harm if you can only afford 2. One year I naughtily drove to Germany on skinny conti eco tyres. I didnt die or have any moments as I drove carefully. Thats key. Slow the **** down.

Your wife would have over corrected on any tyre in that situation ^

What amazes me- heavy spray/rain on the motorway c90% of drivers around me still speed/too close. As though they dont realise rain can cause similar issues to ice

Just to add - YES 4 winter tyres if you can afford but 2 to help traction as you'd be driving SLOWER if you can only afford 2.

If your car is going to slide it will start to slide anyway on snow at a certain point. If its ice- nothing will save you. Ice takes whoever it wants if you go onto black ice. If you've had your car slide before without snow or ice on the ground then you've overstepped your cars limit and should know better. No one should overstep their cars limit in normal cold/warm weather driving. If theres a sudden hazzard ahead then the micro-difference between grip is nothing as you'll be putting sudden excessive steering input/brakes etc into this situation which over rule anything else. (All IMO of course).

One thing that will happen- winter tyre prices will go through the roof now/in the coming weeks. DONT bother with unknown brand winter tyres. Stick to good quality rubber if you can afford/keep what you have. I think Chinese/Ling Long etc budget named rubber at premium all weather tyre prices is a rip off/false economy.

Yes you can probably drive a truck through parts of my argument, hopefully not sideways though 😉

Love the annual winter tyre fight debate.

The only conclusion I have from this is that winter tyres allow you to have the same accident at a higher speed. I hadn't realised that we should be driving everywhere at max.
Live and learn.

"The only conclusion I have from this is that winter tyres allow you to have the same accident at a higher speed. I hadn't realised that we should be driving everywhere at max.
Live and learn. "

this.

It snowed here last wednesday - aberdeens a funny place , first snow and people forget how to drive - couple days later they drive like grannys to over compensate.

great comparison of snow vs 4 season vs summer:

Fast wind to 3 minutes in, if you CBA to watch the whole thing.

And yes, they're snow tyres not winter tyres. Yes, its on ice.

wet braking in the cold, about 3 minutes in.

The idea of having little grip at the rear ALL THE TIME and loads at the front is ever-so-slightly odd to me. Having experience a couple of unexpected rear end slides I know I'd much rather have the front end lose grip, its a whole lot easier to control.

A lot of people have random selections of tyres bought at low cost, which means no grip anywhere, but to deliberately stick the worst tyres at the rear is a bit odd.

4 winters or bust, IMO (etc)

The only conclusion I have from this is that winter tyres allow you to have the same accident at a higher speed. I hadn't realised that we should be driving everywhere at max.
Live and learn.

+1.

I've noticed a big difference with winter tyres compared to last year. I drive slower than I do in summer but I'm happy for a little extra grip in the snow and ice we've had already. Winter tyres are compulsory here though so it's not like I have a choice unless I fancy a 250e fine.

For me, was cheaper to buy new wheels too as the tyres on the (what are now referred to as) summer wheels would have been almost twice as much.

The only conclusion I have from this is that winter tyres allow you to have the same accident at a higher speed.

I've had mine 2 years and wouldn't be without them now, as they have enabled me to safely get to work on days I would otherwise have had a real problem.

IMO only fitting 2 tyres is very dangerous. I had mine delivered a week apart, with heavy snow in between and while it was ok to get the car moving, it was all too easy to forget (FWD in my car) that there was much less traction at the back and braking was also heavily compromised.

If you can only stretch to two winter tyres, I would suggest it is much safer and cheaper option to invest in snow socks (or similar) for the few days when the snow actually lies and you need to get going.

Largely dependent on where you live of course but for me, NE England and work shifts so travelling very early/late and ski trips to Weardale and occasionally Scotland, the winter tyre option is a no-brainer.

Its all very well saying [i]"I don't need winter tyres, I know how to drive my car well"[/i]. You may do, but unfortunatly, a vast proportion of the British public are idiots and can't drive well and have no concept that they are loosely in control of a 1 ton explosive device hurtling down a public road.

Unless you can predict when the afore-mentioned idiot is going to find the black ice in front of you both and pirouette back down the road giving you the option of hitting them, or swerving between them and the small child on the pavement, then its worth going down the safest route. Unless you're driving somewhere where NOBODY else does, then fine, you can carry on as you were.

If you can only stretch to two winter tyres, I would suggest it is much safer and cheaper option to invest in snow socks (or similar) for the few days when the snow actually lies and you need to get going.

That would seem sensible to me. Socks are a great economy way of getting a car moving out of snowed/iced up car parks etc.

Personally I don't see 4 tyres (or winter tyres at all for that matter) as an expensive option - over a period of a few years I don't go through any more tyres owning two sets at the same time. The tyres still do x thousand miles before getting binnned, they just take twice as much time to do it. When you look at the big picture of how much it costs to buy, maintain and run a car these days quibbling over the cost of an extra couple of tyres is laughable imo.

a vast proportion of the British public are idiots

Why hasn't winter tyres been made compulsory here in the UK?

Imagine...everyone would STILL drive at the same speeds on snow all the time with added confidence that their ABS/TC AND SNOW tyres will keep them safe 😆

Northwind - Member
Bottom line is, that understeer was a much bigger problem than oversteer. Rear wheel slides were easily managed and less problematic, but also less common, since the rear's really just following the front whereas the front's dealing with steering and power.

Or in other words- no different from the motorbike, which always had a sticky tyre on the front, and the pushbikes.

I don't think that reasoning is right, losing the front on a bike/motorbike is very difficult to correct, whereas understeer in a car is very natural for most people to correct by just lifting off the accel, or braking.

Snap oversteer caused by lifting-off mid corner, weight transfer under heavy braking or aquaplaning is very difficult to correct (and then also not over-correct and spin the other way).

Why hasn't winter tyres been made compulsory here in the UK?

I guess if was made compulsory there would be a huge complaint from people having to shell out the cash, rather than having the choice.

Unless you can predict when the afore-mentioned idiot is going to find the black ice in front of you both and pirouette back down the road giving you the option of hitting them, or swerving between them and the small child on the pavement, then its worth going down the safest route. Unless you're driving somewhere where NOBODY else does, then fine, you can carry on as you were.

The counter to this of course is vastly different braking performances with other cars and problems this might induce. I had an incident last year with winter tyres on where the knuckle dragger in the car behind seemed to be using my brake lights to inform him when he might like to think about slowing down for a set of roundabouts on an icy road. I started braking at the right distance from the roundabouts for my setup to be able to come to a halt smoothly but he consistently left it too late for his summer tyred car nearly slithering into the back of me twice. Fortunately the last time he completely naffed it up and swerved up onto the verge to avoid hitting me and I was able to make a little ground between us whist he sorted himself out.

Snap oversteer caused by lifting-off mid corner, weight transfer under heavy braking or DELETE is very difficult to correct

Again, you are going too fast for the conditions. Dont blame the tyres.

Aquaplaning is like ice. You literally have to go with the flow regardless.

Fortunately the last time he completely naffed it up [b]and swerved up onto the verge to avoid hitting me[/b] and I was able to make a little ground between us whist he sorted himself out.

Imagine...everyone would STILL drive at the same speeds on snow all the time with added confidence that their ABS/TC AND SNOW tyres will keep them safe

Wow, hora's struggling with a simple concept here.

Winter tyres give MORE traction than summer tyres - fact.

Therefore, you can either go faster for the same level of control, or go the same speed and have lots more control. Or, what most people do, go somewhat faster and still have more control.

You seem really keen to twist these very simple concepts into some kind of position where you can make us all out to be stupid. I don't really know why.

Its all very well saying "I don't need winter tyres, I know how to drive my car well".

I'm also pretty good at ice-skating, but I won't be putting on a pair of football boots next time I go.

No. You take the extra traction offered by the winter tyres AND drive more carefully. This combined makes you safer in winter.

I use the traction offered to slowly/safely keep me from grinding to a halt and abandoning my car. THAT is key to me in winter. I DREAD that happening.

I don't use the tyres to keep my progress swift.

Thats my thinking.

I'm also pretty good at ice-skating, but I won't be putting on a pair of football boots next time I go.

ICE will screw up regardless of your tread pattern. Unless you are on studded tyres.

hora - Member

Snap oversteer caused by lifting-off mid corner, weight transfer under heavy braking or DELETE is very difficult to correct

Again, you are going too fast for the conditions. Dont blame the tyres.

Aquaplaning is like ice. You literally have to go with the flow regardless.

Point is Hora, people do make mistakes and when they do it is better to have a situation they can easily correct, than one which causes them to spin the car.

On summer tyres? I thought we were trying to deomonstrate that one could not control the car in winter conditions without winter tyres.

That would be to not understand the concept. Winter tyres do allow more directional control when loosing control is a possibility. But one of the best things about them is that they reduce braking distances in the cold - a lot! There are plenty of conditions where you could happily maintain control of a car with summer tyres on but a bit like driving on a very wet road your stopping distances get extended. In this case the driver behind was unaware that mine and his stopping distances were very different.

Point is Hora, people do make mistakes and when they do it is better to have a situation they can easily correct, than one which causes them to spin the car.

In this case the driver behind was unaware that mine and his stopping distances were very different.

But the other driver was able to control his car to avoid the accident even though he was on summer tyres.

Where do you live? If that's your idea of control, I'd rather avoid 😀

They were your words, not mine. You said, "and swerved up onto the verge to avoid hitting me" which I assume means that in spite of being brake tested he was able to avoid a collision, good bit of driving on these summer tyres. [/devil's advocate]. 😆

Thing is no matter how careful a driver you are there are always idiots on the road. In bad conditions I'll give the car infront LOTS of space. . Also I've been overtaken on a 30 to gain one cars length- thats rare but it did happen in winter. some people don't want to waste 1 second of their time.

Or you give someone infront lots of room and you look in your mirror to see someone on your ass.

This winter you'll see people spinning their wheels like crazy down the road!

They were your words, not mine. You said, "and swerved up onto the verge to avoid hitting me" which I assume means that in spite of being brake tested he was able to avoid a collision, good bit of driving on these summer tyres. [/devil's advocate].

I'm afraid through the last couple of pages you have deliberately attempted to twist the concept through a lack of basic understanding on your part. Your devil's advocate is a bit of a mentalist!

I'm afraid through the last couple of pages you have deliberately attempted to twist the concept through a lack of basic understanding on your part.

davidjones15 - Member
I'm with the police on this one and the cessation of the word accident.

What does that have to do with the bit of my quote you posted?

Mistake. And not necessarily a dig at you. Some people are just over sensitive on here.

which I assume means that in spite of being brake tested he was able to avoid a collision [edit]by driving up a bank[/edit], [b]good bit of driving on these summer tyres[/b].

You telling me that driving up a bank is in control and with care? 😯

If it avoids hitting the twunt in front who's brake testing me, yes. Personally I'd have given you a bit more distance.

davidjones15 - Member

Mistake. And not necessarily a dig at you. Some people are just over sensitive on here.

Sorry I didn't mean to sound as aggressive as it does reading it back.

You take the extra traction offered by the winter tyres AND drive more carefully. This combined makes you safer in winter

That's what I said.

I use the traction offered to slowly/safely keep me from grinding to a halt and abandoning my car.

Quite, and this is easier with more traction, isn't it? It's both easier and quicker.

ICE will screw up regardless of your tread pattern. Unless you are on studded tyres

It's not just the tread pattern, it's the compound. Winter tyres are better on ice.

This thread has a new villain 🙂

I've got winter tyres AND central heating, do I win?

[IMG] [/IMG]

to the OP, fit what you like, someone in front of you will mess up on the frost and jam the road anyway...

who's brake testing me

Sorry, I'm being a bit thick - what does "brake testing me" mean?

For context - driving at 30mph on a 40mph limit road due to really icy nature of road. About 50-60m to the roundabout I apply the brake gently to come to a halt in a straight line in time for the roundabout. For my brakes & tyres and for that particular road condition that was a nice gentle but not over cautious approach. With my summer tyres on I'd have started braking about 15m sooner to remain safe.

Is this the mythical "brake testing me" of which you speak? Does that make me a "twunt"? I have little control over how close the car behind drives or when he chooses to start braking. What would you have done differently oh great oracle?