[Closed] Will you be "remembering", this weekend?

He lost me with this little gem:

Such memorialism continues to distort Britain’s defence budget. It devotes astronomical sums to remembered threats and archaic strategies, such as submarine warfare, convoy protection, aerial dogfighters and manned bombers.

Absolute drivel.

Almost all the conflicts in the world are caused by too much remembering

Wha?

Ay, forget about it!!

Said in a new York accent....

I think he's bang on.

Agree that there’s a disturbing “remembrance porn” and “griefier than thou” aspect to it these days. But that’s social media’s fault, not Remembrance Sunday’s. Rest of the article is just him making shit up!

I don't agree with everything in that article but he has a point. It's time we all moved on.

I agree with him.

He makes valid points.

But Britain has a backward looking mentality, so you can’t really expect his views to be welcomed with open minds.

When [i]do[/i] we move on? After the last Tommy dies? After the next war? Or does this grief addicted society we live in now never move on?.

Well said. I agree with most of what he wrote. Time to move on, which IMO is a better way to honour the fallen

Do we move on to remembering just the 21C then?

Will be attending a military organised Rememberence. Partly due to recent conflicts and partly due to their location, these tend to be pretty solemn affairs with no chest thumping

Thanks for sharing that.

I think he develops his point a little too far but it's largely spot on.

We should not be remembering, but forgetting. Almost all the conflicts in the world are caused by too much remembering: refreshing religious divisions, tribal feuds, border conflicts, humiliations and expulsions. Why else but for memory does Sunni fight Shia or Hindu fight Muslim? India and ****stan seem unable to get over memories of Partition. What ancient grievances motivated Myanmar’s viciousness against the Rohingya?

I was going to write a piece about Remembrance Day losing a lot of its meaning but to be honest I can't be arsed with the flaming.

Suffice to say, war is horrible. Lots of innocent people lose their lives in the most hideous way possible. Families are destroyed and countries devastated. We should be learning that war is not an option however when you've got a balloon-headed orange freak in the Whitehouse threatening another balloon-headed freak with annihilation then this demonstrates that as a people we have learned nothing.

Yes.
Having served for 12 years, and lost friends in ways you hope you never would, I will be remembering them.

And all of them that got beaten by the clock.

Remembrance Sunday isn’t some kind of partisan, nationalistic fervour though. He’s comparing something that commemorates the horrors of war and provokes a moment’s reflection on it, with half-remembered ancient grievances which are used to whip up popular feeling towards the opposite objective.

It’s not just for the wars though. It’s for the current service people too.

I can understand why Brits have a problem with rmemberance:

Invassion of Iraq on a false pretext

Stupid escalation in the Falklans

A series of embarrassing skirmishes in former colonies

Not that I'm saying other countries do better. So I'll be there on Saturday as the veterans of Algeria, Afghanistan, a long list of African conflicts, the Balkans, various blue helmet missions file past, along with the gendarmes, pompiers...

Learn from your mistakes, better still learn form the mistakes of others. The day you forget past mistakes you increase the risk of making them again.

That's a really interesting piece and I find it hard to disagree with the core argument.

It's not just the poppy fascism that's become a problem with remembrance in recent years, it's the way it reinforces an uncritical and self-satisfied image of Britain as morally right. Heroic even.

Things are a bit more nuanced in the 21st century.

It’s not just for the wars though. It’s for the current service people too

No it's not. Remembrance Sunday is the Sunday closest to the 11th of November for a reason. The memorial at the end of the village originally only had the names of the lads who died in the Great War engraved on it, the names of those who fell in WW2 were added later. No other wars are mentioned. Active servicemen and women aren't either. Surely that's Simon Jenkins' point?

Watty, there is the national memorial, Cannock. No doubt a Rememberence service will be there Sunday.

I agree with pretty much everything he says. My wife's American, and while their attitude to defence and 'the troops' is pretty grim, she finds our obsession with the world wars baffling. America has moved on (to 2001 at least) and put those wars behind them. The glorification of war like this, and the beration of those who don't think war is a good thing and feel it isn't something we should glorify is mawkish and a bit revolting.

I'll not be remembering but looking forward to a future without war.

No other wars are mentioned. Active servicemen and women aren't either.

Our village service last year was well attended by active service personnel from the local regiment. An officer spoke movingly at the church and the personnel marched in the parade with the Beavers, Scouts, Guides etc

Although there was obviously a WWI aspect to the service, reading old letters from the front, there was also plenty of mention of current conflicts and reflections on our roles and responsibilities in the refugee crisis.

It all seemed very healthy to me.

I think there is a general movement to remember those that served in all wars, past and present, on any side.

Perhaps it is slowly evolving more towards a US style Veterans Day?

The glorification of war like this, and the beration of those who don't think war is a good thing and feel it isn't something we should glorify is mawkish and a bit revolting.

Glorification? Rememberance days are usually sad, somber affairs. A chance to reflect on the evils that humans can do.

[i]If you could hear, at every jolt, the blood
Come gargling from the froth-corrupted lungs,
Obscene as cancer, bitter as the cud
Of vile, incurable sores on innocent tongues,—
My friend, you would not tell with such high zest
To children ardent for some desperate glory,
The old Lie: Dulce et decorum est
Pro patria mori.[/i]

I don't see it as a remembrance or glorification of the war(s) ..but of the servicemen & women who gave their lives in the hope that ours would be better ..
I think that's worth remembering

Exactly, hodgynd and GrahamS. It's just that the media in general don't see it that way, including the Guardian journalist who instead of writing on the benefits of remembering suggests we forget - and then we're off again.

Well I'll be remembering, but It's not like you have to if you don't want to is it?
It's not like It's an EU directive is it?

I’ve lost friends
I’ve lost comrades
I’ve carried what’s left of them back so there’s something for families to bury
I’ve also carried parts of what’s left of enemies back so there’s something for their families to bury
We lost 9 of a 12man fire team in one sortie
It’s remebering ALL who have and who will serve - it is most certainly not glorifying war.
“When you’ve stood in my shoes.....” springs to mind with people like that

I can't stand the poppy fascism and poppy pron (sparkly poppies on Strictly anyone?) and the assumption that anyone on TV in November without wearing a poppy is some sort of traitor. I'm a lefty liberal remoaner vegetarian pacifist.

But, like every year, I'll be at the memorial outside out local church at 11am on Sunday. You don't have to agree with war to respect and remember those who gave their lives.

No other wars are mentioned. Active servicemen and women aren't either.

Definitely not correct of several memorials or any memorial service I’ve been to. The far lower casualties in later conflicts are probably the reason there’s none of their names on there; statistically, there’s a far lower chance of people from your parish having died in those.

I’d suggest seeing tones of imperial superiority/glorification of war/British exceptionalism in the service of remembrance say more about the beholder than the content.

Mike, hammy and Edukator, good posts 🙂

she finds our obsession with the world wars baffling. America has moved on

I don't think that is true at all.

Both World Wars are still regularly portrayed in American-made film, TV and video games for example, and usually with far more glorification than a church service and readings of war poets.

One of the biggest films of 2017, Wonder Woman, was set in World War I and was far from sombre.

If you don't remember the horrors then that glorification is all you are left with.

I can't stand the poppy fascism and poppy pron (sparkly poppies on Strictly anyone?) and the assumption that anyone on TV in November without wearing a poppy is some sort of traitor.

This. I noticed on Strictly (guilty pleasure) that they had poppies on their gym kit during the footage of them in training, ridiculous!

It should be remembered, if not for the people who gave their lives or sanity to give us the life we all have, thinking we're now too important or somehow above learning lessons from our past is unbelievably narrow minded.

IMO, those that remember the horror of war would do everything in their power to prevent it happening again. Those that don't would risk it for financial/political/personal gain...

This. I noticed on Strictly (guilty pleasure) that they had poppies on their gym kit during the footage of them in training, ridiculous!

What is ridiculous is that if they didn't the Daily Mail / Express would be demanding they all be fired.

#PoppyFascismWeek

But once again, that’s a function of social media acting as a nutter lantern, rather than the actual service of remembrance.

Yes; always have, always will.

I've always had mixed feelings about remembrance.

Part of it...
[img] [/img]

But once again, that’s a function of social media acting as a nutter lantern, rather than the actual service of remembrance.

My main issue with the service of remembrance is the religious side; it's a shame that there aren't accessible secular alternatives. I could do without the singing of the national anthem too.

Will I be remembering? Yes. I have known people who have done their duty and not come back, my remembrance will be for them.

Will I wear a poppy? No. It's been hijacked by the war glorifiers and celebrities (like the sparkly Strictly ones mentioned earlier) as a way of making it compulsory and also missing the point of the whole thing.

The whole point of 'Lest We Forget' is not to forget the dead but to never forget the futility of war and the suffering it invariably causes. There's a reason the Great War (I hate the tag WW1) was meant to be the war to end all wars. We need to remember that even more now with certain countries gearing up for what could be WW3.

Dez, mike and milky. Spot on.

My main issue with the service of remembrance is the religious side

I'm a devout atheist, but I attend. Our local service is multi-denominational and isn't too heavy on the religion side. I just respectfully treat the God bits as moral philosophy. (I don't sing either, but that's more to do with not knowing the words, being tone deaf and chronically flat 🙂 )

Nobeerinthefridge - Member

When do we move on? After the last Tommy dies?

The thing is, as much as people misunderstand it (sometimes willfully) Remembrance Sunday isn't about any particular war. Naturally the world wars dominate the imagination but we're a long, long way from having no war dead to remember, and not getting any closer.

I will as ever be mostly remembering my grandads (especially for the brilliant drunken chats, when RAF Grandad would be reminiscing about the lovely time he had in Ceylon and India, while Merchant Navy Grandad would be reminiscing about the arctic convoys and getting sunk twice and losing 6 brothers in 2 years) and thinking about mates who left bits of themselves in Iraq and Afghanistan. Remembrance isn't just about looking back, if you forget the past you're doomed to repeat it.

Pretty easy for those that do misunderstand it Northy, when all around are images of Lancaster, spitfire and the fields of France and Belgium.

We don't forget the past, but we will also keep making the same mistakes, sadly.

Anyway, I don't have strong views either way tbh, so I'll go back to the bike forum, and leave the usual suspects to this...

I mentioned in another thread about Poppy Month, that I despise war and suffering. Can’t think of anyone I connect with who doesn’t think similar thoughts.

Quite what the Whailing Daily or the ”Ex”prose have to do with anything a Journalist from the Guardian has to say, again is beyond me. Both of those “pappers” are rigidly stuck in the past and are proven racial and social hatred promoters. Perpetual hatred breads hatred.

I’d disagree with the point made about the US still continuing to support the view that Americans in general look backwards and support and celebrate Wars, quite how this comment came about says more about the posters ignorance than any cultural reference made about American culture.
Whilst you do see remembrance gatherings, these are more directed towards the futility and degradation of human suffering than any glorified portrayal. Lest not forget the Vietnam fiasco, that particular war is not celebrated in any shape nor form. It’s seen more as a stupid reticent ignorance for humans and wildlife respect.
And it’s still ingrained in the US culture for those reasons.

We don't forget the past, but we will also keep making the same mistakes, sadly.

Does make a complete mockery of the whole thing. Politicians pin on a poppy and look sombre for one day a year and then start another war as soon as they can get away with it / need a ratings boost....