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what is your opinion on this subject?
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whoever is elected will have to cut every budget, so I would expect so
I think anyone will but Tories are likley to privatise certain sections and pay for GP appointments.
I havbe not read their manifesto but the do what they want when in.
I'm not rich so I won't be voting for them.
yep chopped up and privatised all the way
after all the money hannahan has had off the medical insurance companies in the states i bet the rest of the gang want in on some of those incentives
bbc too i suspect will be chopped up
As TJ isn't here, I'll do it for him;
No! NO! We'll all die! Everyone will die!
BR above, however, speaks sense. Cuts are necessary. I just hope that those cuts are made in the places where cuts can be afforded without affecting necessary services. (There are many civil servants who are not necessary, IMO....)
I hope so.
The first thing I would do would be to end the final salary pension scheme for public sector workers.
I have it from someone who's quite senior in procurement for the nhs that labour have already got planned cuts in place. So yes the Tories will make cuts but so will anyone who get into power...
move to Scotland or Wales, health is devolved so the next Westminster Gov will only be able to affect England.
As someone who live in Scotland I'm afraid that cuts in the NHS will be inevitable here too. Some of the free care for the elderly is likely to go.
You should also bear in mind that the amount of money that the Scottish government gets to spend is a function of public spending in the UK as a whole, so any reduction in public spending from Westminster will reduce the amount of money available to spend in Scotland.
Britain is going to be so good under the Tories that I doubt there'll be any need for the majority of services that the NHS provides. I'm sure that's what Dave's been saying...
I suspect what will happen is increased privatisation in some areas which in healthcare always increases costs - so other areas will be cut to pay for this and that what the will do is increase budgets but at less than costs increase. I think we will see popular areas such as childrens health do well and unpopular such as treating junkies get cut badly ( even tho every £ spent on treating junkies saves £7 in other costs)
The NHS is in great danger from the tories - apart from one sensible policy ( but I bet it never makes it to reality) to remove the NHS from political control.
expect to be paying for GP appointments and expect a greater emphasis on a two tier NHS. Expect a pay freeze as well
Surely there is no need to cut budgets - we can just keep pending more than we receive in taxation at a rate of £2,000,000,000 a week?
thatscold - MemberI hope so.
The first thing I would do would be to end the final salary pension scheme for public sector workers.
Very nice. Jealous? it is a funded scheme and we pay for it.
Just 'cos your pension is rubbish why should you make mine rubbish?
we pay for it.
[b]We[/b] do indeed, TJ....we all do. 😉
Not sure about cutting NHS budget but they'll slaughter all firstborn babies fro shizzle.
9% of my salary. Its not unfunded.
people only have pension envy since that nigel lawson came up with the idea of pension holidays to liberate tall that saved pension dosh into the economy
now everyone is jealous of final salary schemes because successive torry/labour governments have raided the pension piggy bank to give themselves an economic/political short term boost
so private scehemes look so bad compared to final salary
Can I quote you on that TJ the nest time you complain about tax breaks on pension contributions? 😉
Introduce a flat £1 fee for everyone for prescriptions, and £10 to see your GP.
Gonefishing - I point out again that for every £ spent of taxpayers money subsidising public sector pensions there is £7 of taxpayers money subsidising private pensions.
Most public sector pensions are low.
I have a huge issue with me on less than the average wage subsidising rich peoples pensions. The bigger your private pension the bigger the state subsidy you get.
The NHS needs cutting. Middle managers, spin doctors, 5-a-day advisors, the multi billion pound computer etc. But NOT nurses, doctors or any front line workers. The Tories are probably going to be the gentlest with the NHS out of the big 3, they wouldn't DARE to renege on a manifesto pledge after lambasting Nulabour over their broken pledges on student fees, the EU referendum etc, not unless they fancy being one-term-wonders.
stevie - there is no significant slack in the way you describe. cuts will mean deaths - don't be fooled.
One of the major issues with the NHS is a lack of management both in quality and quantity. The NHS spends less on management than any comparable organisation.
Teh cuts will be stealth ones - ie inflation 2 % nhs budget increase 1.5% and a diversion of cash into privatisation which costs more - thus leading to cuts in other areas.
cuts will mean deaths - don't be fooled
Bullsh1t, TJ and you know it. As mentioned, there won't be deaths if things such as the "5 a day advisers" or many of the needless non-front line care jobs are cut. There is slack, there can be cuts without [i]DEATH! DEATH! DEATH![/i], so just get ready to accept it.
We desperately need to save money as a country. There are areas where those cuts can be made without affecting the vital services we all value.
For example, does Brent NHS really need a [i]a highly motivated individual to the post of Tobacco Control Alliance Co-ordinator[/i], especially at around £40,000 per annum?
As mentioned, there won't be deaths if things such as the "5 a day advisers"
If you take an incredibly short term view then yes, but isn't eating more vegetables proven to be a good thing which will actually cut deaths and NHS costs in the long run?
AS grumm says - every smoker costs thousand and thousands.
There is virtually no slack in NHS budgets. Cutting stop smoking advisors will result in more expense and more deaths as they are proiven to be effective and cost effective.
Its not rocket science.
Every smoke also contributes thousands! 🙂
That job is not a simple "stop smoking advisor", it's a needlessly overpaid non-job. One of many. A "stop smoking advisor" could not really be worth £40k a year could they? Just to dish out some nicorette and say nice things to people?
I'd rather see that £40k spent on real front line healthcare. Yes education is important, but it should not be better paid than those with real medical skills. In essence, TJ, I would sooner you had that money than some limp idiot with bad hair and a reedy voice waffling on in meetings! 😉
kimberspeople only have pension envy since that nigel lawson came up with the idea of pension holidays to liberate tall that saved pension dosh into the economy
Let's not forget that Gordon removed tax breaks on pensions, making pensions that were previously healthy go sour.
As for the NHS, yes, I expect they will make cuts, and I hope they do. I have temped in the NHS, and know a few people who work in it at the non-clinical end. If someone turns up with a quite ordinary workrate, they are hailed as being incredibly productive. GPs currently have a bonus scheme that means they get paid a fortune for making their patient's experience worse. Much like the council, sacking someone is incredibly convoluted, so a lot of people who don't want to be there are still on the staff due to the pension etc. I'm sure anyone going through the thing with a fine toothed comb would find lots of similar savings. And that would be the way to do it.
I think it goes without saying that the pension schemes of all public sector bodies need to be looked at. Private pensions need to be improved, and public pensions need to be on a par. Same goes for sick pay, fringe benefits etc. Public and private jobs should be directly comparable.
Ultimately, to me the answer is pretty obvious - we keep tweaking this and that with the NHS, but there are countries which have excellent healthcare systems. The most sane option would be to copy them.
The problem is if the next government (whoever they are) simply cut all budgets by x% and the management simply close / delete more or less at random.
t taken CFH - however the scope for cuts that don't affect frontline services is virtually zero. Remeber there has been a 3% "efficiency" saving made annually for years in most budgets.
Yes some money could be saved - a % or two - simply not enough to be significant. We still don't spend enough on our healthcare - still below the EC average
Good - can we have private sector wages as well? As an experienced shop floor nurse I get £12 per hour - thats degree educated ( at my own expense) and 30 yrs experience. £12 per hour. £24 000 pa.
Ultimately, to me the answer is pretty obvious - we keep tweaking this and that with the NHS, but there are countries which have excellent healthcare systems. The most sane option would be to copy them.
Which countries should we copy? Please tell?
I reckon it's a fair bet that they'll follow the line that they did when they last took over government
No - not a concerted effort to destroy the working classes, although they may try that again
Tory budgets
http://www.bbc.co.uk/politics97/budget97/background/bud1979_92.shtml
One of the major issues with the NHS is a lack of management both in quality and quantity. The NHS spends less on management than any comparable organisation
TJ you must work for a different NHS to me as there are far too many middle mangers who have now Idea what they are doing – most don’t have clinical backgrounds and tend to forget that we deal with people not tins of beans.
TBH cuts are happing already and have been for some time – vacant posts not be filled – beds & wards been closed – specialist services disbanded or amalgamated into generic teams
All the while the number of managers continues to increase
Over the last year I have lost about 2 visits per day due to increased data entry on our patient information system – the irony being this system if for payment by results i.e. the trust gets money per visit from the Primary Care Trust
The NHS needs cutting. Middle managers, spin doctors, 5-a-day advisors, the multi billion pound computer etc. But NOT nurses, doctors or any front line workers
The way the changes to the way doctors were paid was a disaster though, and accounted for a big chunk where the extra NHS funding went.
Don't worry, Cameron's going to mend society, so sorting out the NHS will be a trivial problem.
TandemJeremyGood - can we have private sector wages as well? As an experienced shop floor nurse I get £12 per hour - thats degree educated ( at my own expense) and 30 yrs experience. £12 per hour. £24 000 pa.
Yes. The current idea seems to be that people in the public sector get paid a bit less, but get to take the odd sicky, generally slack a bit whilst being immune to being sacked, and get a very good pension. I'd much rather the public and private sectors were on an even footing, so it's clear whether or not the public sector is paying the going rate.
TandemJeremyWhich countries should we copy? Please tell?
I have no idea. Quite a few countries beat us in terms of life expectancy at 65 and cancer survival rates.
The bigger your private pension the bigger the state subsidy you get.
Can you explain to me what state subsidy goes into my pension. As far as I can tell the only money that goes into mine is from the money that I earn. These contributions are, like your 9%, not liable for taxation. Unlike yours however there is no employer contribution. So where is the subsidy?
CF you are taking a very shortsighted view of healthcare spending. All you seem to be doing is saying that by reducing spending in one location that money will be saved without looking at the potential consequences of those cuts and what that may mean cost wise in the longer term. It's analogous to thinking that by not spending money money on servicing your car your are saving money when in actual fact there is a risk that you are merely inviting a much larger cost at a later date.
So Tron - which countries healthcare systems should we emulate?
USA - twice as expensive for only 70% of the population coverd
Germany pretty good health service. Cost about 20% per head more than the NHS with admin costs twice as high
Dutch - costs about 15 % more per head than us and many folk end up paying significant amounts for care - it cost my sister £3000 to have each of her children.
France - see germany. Much the same.
Etc etc.
So I'd like to know what countries health service you think provides better care for less money.
Tron - of course some countries have better outcomes - they spend more on healthcare. Its not rocket scinece. we have comprehensive care for what is still well less than 10% of gdp. The average in the EU is 12% of gdp. USA is 16 - 18% of gdp.
Spend more and get better healthcare. The NHS does more for less than any other comparable system and our admin overheads are very low by comparison.
Good - can we have private sector wages as well? As an experienced shop floor nurse I get £12 per hour - thats degree educated ( at my own expense) and 30 yrs experience. £12 per hour. £24 000 pa.
At the risk of sounding harsh - if you've a problem with what it gets paid then why don't you consider changing career? It's not like you could have went into it with any other salary expectation than that.
I think nurses clearly do a very valuable job but unfortunately for those following that career path the balance of supply and demand seems to still be such that there is no [b]need[/b] for nurses to be paid more (i.e. while there are people willing to do it for the current wages).
Most people (including me) would agree that a job like that is valuable enough to society to be worth paying more but it's market forces, not public opinion, that decides these things. It's not like the government has spare cash to throw about just because they think people deserve it. They think the money is better server to spend on their expenses and wars in foreign climes.
I haven't done work for the NHS for years now, but when I did a few years back I found it quite alarming just how wasteful they were in the areas I was involved in (IT).
Gone FishinCan you explain to me what state subsidy goes into my pension. As far as I can tell the only money that goes into mine is from the money that I earn. These contributions are, like your 9%, not liable for taxation. Unlike yours however there is no employer contribution. So where is the subsidy?
You get tax relief on the money you put into pensions. Which I suppose may be considered as a subsidy. I consider it as a small sliver of sanity.
epic steve - I have no issue with the salary levels - so long as we continue to have decent terms and conditions.
as for market forces - why do you think we import thousands of nurse for abroad each year - because too few UK residents complete their training. There is a serious shortage of nursing staff in the UK which is going to get worse. we train less each year than retire or leave the profession. Market forces don't work with a monopoly.
As for the pension subsidy = please remember that the tax relief is 7 times the cost to the taxpayer than the direct subsidy to the public sector pensions
We have all lived beyond our "real" earnings in the last bubble. Now is the time of reckoning, whichever party gets in will have to cut everywhere until spending and earning are balanced again.
A second point, don't confuse how much you spend on something with how good it is. That has been one of the most expensive errors of recent times, extra spending but with no reform.
We can either do it for ourselves or let the IMF do it for us. Either way it will hurt.
TandemJeremy - MemberTron - of course some countries have better outcomes - they spend more on healthcare. Its not rocket scinece. we have comprehensive care for what is still well less than 10% of gdp. The average in the EU is 12% of gdp. USA is 16 - 18% of gdp.
They may well spend more on healthcare, and so should we, when we can afford it. The problem is that the extra money we've chucked at the NHS hasn't seemed to have as much impact as it might have.
On the other hand why do you think nurses have to be from the uk (although I'd happily admit I'd prefer it)? If the nursing posts are filled with qualified staff then there isn't really much the NHS as an employer can do about it.
Gordon Browns speech about British jobs for British workers was bollocks and he knew it at the time - unless he takes us out of the EU it's not something he can deliver.
tron - it has made a huge difference - and much of it has gone on undoing the damage of previous times.
waiting time, improved treatments, etc etc