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Its nothing to do with looking down on people. Its about showing alternatives exist. Jeepers why put words and motivations in my mouth and mind?
so yes - you made a choice not to move house preferring the commute. Your choice.
I chose a profession where work is plentiful. I chose to live in a city, I chose to never have a car commute. this last choice has restricted what jobs I can do and I even had to refuse an offered post because the commute was too long and I didn't want to move
You are actually making me quite angry molgrips by claiming I am gloating. looking down on people and so on.
I am not. I am merely pointing out that was all make choices and we have to accept the outcome of them.
This was all specified by the Department of Transport.
Would it surprise you to know that DfT have literally zero national transport plan. They never have.
Sure there are occasional "rail" plans or "road" plans but there is zero joined up national transport plan linking road, rail, bus, active travel to things like cities, towns, villages, amenities and "desires" (things like popular holiday destinations, tourist attractions etc).
So it's hardly a surprise, when a massively London-centric organisation starts telling the regions what they should be doing without the slightest clue of what is actually going on up there with regards to new house-building, new job creation, new development etc, that it all gets lost in the confusion.
The other problem is funding. DfT makes available pots of cash which regions/councils can bid for. So rather than a council saying "here is what we need, here is how much it will cost", Government say "here is £100m, you can bid for some of it".
The council put in a bid and let's say they get £18m - that money is then ring-fenced for whatever scheme the council came up with in the first place so it can't be spent on any other schemes, if it doesn't get spent they have to give it back and if it's not enough to cover the original bid, either some money needs to come from elsewhere or the scheme gets cut back in order to fit the money that you have actually got. It's a dreadful way of funding and spending, it encourages profligate waste and appalling infrastructure built to a price point and there no overall planning behind it.
Hee you go, here's £5m to rebuild/modernise your station. But no money on better roads, buses etc to get the train users to the station. No money on better trains or more services. No joined up thinking.
Here you are, have a load of cash to subside the buses. But when you get a bus to the station, there's no staff, it's a dark windswept bit of platform and there's 1 train an hour except on weekends when there's none. Ooh, why is no-one using that bus service??!
TJ, you are looking at this from a purely Edinburgh-centric perspective. 30 buses an hour? Where else do you think that level of service exists in Scotland or even the rest of the UK outside of London? You are lucky in that your inter-modal system works. Try doing Newton Mearns to Leith 1hr 30mins by car vs 2h 18mins by public transport for a 63 mile journey. Or even better, Newton Mearns to Milngavie 40mins vs 1hr 12 mins for a 23 mile journey.
It could be better, that's indisputable, but the simple fact if the matter is that for the vast majority it's not. It's slow, infrequent, unreliable, expensive and not going to change any time soon.
You would not do newton means to leith in 1.30 apart from in the middle of the night. try it at peak times and it could be 3 hrs by car
But yes - a couple of my statements read as general when should have been specific and for that i apologise
the point simply was - public transport can work. When it doesn't its because of political choices and lifestyle choices
You are actually making me quite angry molgrips by claiming I am gloating. looking down on people and so on.
Afraid I'm with molegrips.
Sometimes in life choices can be influenced by things you don't have full control of. The ill health of others, relationship changes that are imposed on you, support services that are impacted by the postcode lottery, poor life choices that seem appropriate to the time and circumstances in which they were made, illness, disability,
redundancy, the lack of equality of opportunity that stops people making great life changing decisions, etc etc
its because of political choices and lifestyle choices
Rentier.
Interesting stuff. I'm changing jobs next week from nationwide/one car one occupant/CO2 disaster zone/hours at a time to public transport, ten minute drive then twenty minutes on the train or (once I suss the showers) a half hour cycle. I CANNOT wait to cycle.
This, I think, will be the shortest commute I've had since 1997 - it hasn't felt like it, but it's a choice, I'm just really lucky that I've been able to make this choice.
Argue I am wrong by all means and I have apologised for mistakes made in this discussion but argue I am gloating and making out I am better than others - thats actually pretty offensive and 100% wrong
Or move?
Its really very simple
Except, it isn't.
I live in a shitty terrace in a deprived ward of East Lancashire. I had my house valued maybe 5 years ago, the estate agent was in the house about 30 seconds before telling me the going rate for houses on my block and leaving. His valuation was £50k.
I work in tech. I'm fortunate enough now to have landed a role where I work from home and prior to that for the last decade it was (again fortunately) a ~20 minute commute if I took the scenic route. But do you know how many tech jobs there are in East Lancashire? The Pennine Valley isn't exactly Silicon Valley.
Before working for my current employer I worked in central Manchester and before that Warrington. Under perfect rush-hour conditions it was an hour's commute, Warrington especially was often twice that, and both vastly unpredictable. There's been times where I've given up and gone home, whilst working for a company that was watch-tapping at 8:32.
So, what then, "just move"? What do you reckon £50k would have got me by way of accommodation in Old Trafford? A tent on Seymore Grove allotments? The nearest place of residency to my Warrington job was Stockton Heath, a quick look on Rightmove suggests the going rate for a house is £300k. And all this whilst staying miles away from what little I've got left of family and friends. I'd have fared better by sacking the lot off and going filling shelves in ASDA.
I don't think you're gloating, I think that's an unfair assessment. I do however think you're viewing this discussion through privileged glasses and that's skewing your opinion. It can be simple, sure, with the right circumstances, but you cannot blanket-apply that thinking to everyone.
I worked for many years in jobs where I thought I didn't have a choice (mainly through my own life choices). I did have choices, they just weren't palatable to me at the time.
What do you reckon £50k would have got me
Quite yer whinging, that’ll get you a nice flat with panoramic city scape views of Edinburgh that.
The flat with the panoramic views might be in Kirkcaldy mind you.
Out of curiosity I wondered what was on Rightmove for Edinburgh for less than £60k, 8 properties. Do you own a camper van St. Vincent Place, New Town, Edinburgh, EH3
https://www.rightmove.co.uk/property-for-sale/property-85061696.html
I am suprised as many as 8!
I don’t think you’re gloating, I think that’s an unfair assessment. I do however think you’re viewing this discussion through privileged glasses and that’s skewing your opinion. It can be simple, sure, with the right circumstances, but you cannot blanket-apply that thinking to everyone.
You are likely correct, but I think there is far more credit to what Tj says than he is being given credit for. I work with a large number of people (actually around the corner from where Tj lives) who have chosen to make lengthy commutes, so that they can have a larger house, with a bigger garden etc. Some people may have very little choice, but a large number have enough for what Tj says to have some merit.
Also, they all drive, and all complain about the traffic!
You are likely correct, but I think there is far more credit to what Tj says than he is being given credit for. I work with a large number of people (actually around the corner from where Tj lives) who have chosen to make lengthy commutes, so that they can have a larger house, with a bigger garden etc. Some people may have very little choice, but a large number have enough for what Tj says to have some merit.
Also, they all drive, and all complain about the traffic!
I don't know anyone who has done that. They do it because inner city schools are often nastier, crime is higher, pollution is higher, there is less greenery - people want to take their children for walks, they want green space for them to play. There are a whole rift of things on top of public transport that this country needs to get right before people are happy to spend money to move nearer to a new job. Some cities in the UK are so expensive now that it's not simply a case of living outside the city because you can have a bigger house, you live outside because you cannot afford to house your family nearer to work.
Let's not forget that a lot of us in the private sector change jobs everywhere two years, so there's no ****ing point moving anyway!
Still - as TJ has said, alternatives exist.
Its about showing alternatives exist. Jeepers why put words and motivations in my mouth and mind?
You've said many times you don't understand people. So we're trying to explain people to you - you might want to listen.
You said that people only commute because they are greedy and want more money. This is true and also not true at the same time.
I lost my job in Cardiff once, a long time ago. I was a software engineer with only a few years' experience. I could not find a software engineering job in Cardiff as there are very few. I had no experience for other skilled jobs, so I'd have had to get an unskilled one. I was in contract in my flat so I'd have had to do a runner and get somewhere cheaper, which would have meant leaving my flat mates in the lurch. I had a graduate loan, I'd have had to default on that probably and bankrupted myself. Sure, you can say I shouldn't have had a graduate loan, but I did. Now, I'd found it hard to get a job already, so taking a break from my career would have made it very difficult to get more, and I'd have ended up in unskilled work for a while if not indefinitely. But the point is that I had skills and experience, and guess what - there was a job in Bristol. So I took it, despite it having a shit commute. I hated it too, but I needed the work.
Now - there are choices I could have made that would have not led down this path, but that's not helpful at that specific time. I can't go back and change things. So I did what I had to do. But it was NOT driven by greed. I was trying to make the best out of my life. This is an example of how people can end up commuting when they don't want to. Sure, some people are greedy, but not everyone is. And it's up to you if you consider people greedy to want somewhere safe to live, somewhere with clean air, a garden or park for your kids to play in, a decent school, and so on.
You are lucky in that your chosen profession is widely available and you have chosen to live in a big city with lots of work. You've been lucky in that you haven't had to get a job in a different city when your partner doesn't want to leave her job.
There is always an element of luck, for me, you, and anyone successful. ALWAYS. So don't judge people who don't have the luck you do. To use a metaphor, you play the cards you're dealt. Some people are brilliant players, some get dealt a good hand, and some are in between. But not everyone who wins is a brilliant player, it depends on your cards.
Basically what I'm saying is don't judge people. It's not really a radical idea.
pollution is higher, there is less greenery – people want to take their children for walks, they want green space for them to play
An element of irony there though, since the pollution and lack of green space is due in large part to the number of motorised vehicles.
This guy says tj is wrong even with real costs.
That's hilarious.
It gets worse with regular trips
I travel up north once a month roughly to see family, there's 100 quid gone. Train and bus to work (6 miles away) - 200pcm!
PCP of an electric Audi ID3 with a 340 mile range, £250-300. Insurance circa £100. Return journey to see family and friends = less than a tenner in electricity. Why am I using public transport again?
Argue I am wrong by all means and I have apologised for mistakes made in this discussion but argue I am gloating and making out I am better than others – thats actually pretty offensive and 100% wrong
I don't mean to offend but this is what your posts look like.
You need to acknowledge your good fortune. I try to do it every day. I am in a good position now by blind luck.
An element of irony there though, since the pollution and lack of green space is due in large part to the number of motorised vehicles.
Of course, but then to get round that you have to knock most of London down and turn it into miles of flats. Now unless flats are privately managed and gated, the space between the blocks of flats tend to be conducive to crime. Good luck convincing parents that they want their children to grow up in blocks of flats in dodgy parts of London or Manchester, with the green space between them inhabited by moped gangs and drug dealers.
We aren't Singapore, we don't have a culture that despite strong central control builds beautifully green cities. When we do central planning we do brutalism and pack the masses into shitty soviet aprtment blocks.
Is there an acceptance now that we DO have choice?
You said that people only commute because they are greedy and want more money.
I did not at all. Stop inventing things you want me to have said. What I said was a commute by car is always a result of choices made.
No wonder yo are angry with me if you think thats what I said. Its nothing like what I said.
You are lucky in that your chosen profession is widely available and you have chosen to live in a big city with lots of work. You’ve been lucky in that you haven’t had to get a job in a different city when your partner doesn’t want to leave her job.
No
I am in this position not by luck but because of deliberate choice. A part of the reason for choosing nursing was to always have work available. I chose to live in a city. My partner did spend a year working in London while I worked in manchester and another year working in yorkshire while I worked in Edinburgh
Basically what I’m saying is don’t judge people. It’s not really a radical idea.
Where did I make a single judgmental comment - please Molgrips I consider yo a friend but really I have not at all in any way. Go on - quote to me where I have used any judgmental language.
Oh flip - I have done it again haven't I?
Ok folks - I'll walk away for a while. Sorry
Where did I make a single judgmental comment
For reference, this comment
Its really very simple – I have taken decisions that allow me this lifestyle. You have taken different ones
No one HAS to do a long commute. Its always as a result of choices made
Comes across very judgemental indeed. Saying 'it's very simple' when we are clearly having an argument about it cannot be construed as anything other than dismissive. And by extrapolation, if you think it's easy to avoid commuting, and yet so many people do it, you are asserting yourself as clever than they are.
Some advice then, given in good faith:
- NEVER EVER say 'it's very simple' in an argument. Even if you think it is. It will just piss people off.
- Always say something like 'I appreciate your problem' or 'I understand how it can be difficult' even if you don't. In real life you can tell from someone's demeanour or body language if they are being hostile or friendly; online you can't so you have to be explicit.
Sorry for getting annoyed, but oversimplifying people's problems does that!
I am in this position not by luck but because of deliberate choice. A part of the reason for choosing nursing was to always have work available.
We can't all work in nursing, teaching or things with universal demand. Nor do we all want to or are we all capable of. I don't think I could handle being a nurse, nor do I think you'd enjoy computery stuff. Someone has to do nursing and someone has to at least try to get the computery stuff done properly. Computery jobs are very poorly distributed across the country as are many other niche industries, but they still need doing.
Nurse here with terrible public transport links. See my previous post.
I could move to be by the district general hospital but that would mean uprooting my family (school etc) to a miserable grotty town.
For me work is second to everything else. I'll happily commute by car and not catch two buses and a train making my 13 hour shift into a 19 hour one.
Definitely my choice. I certainly wouldn't choose to live purposely near a hospital. I work to live, not live to work. But then we are all different.
Nurse......For me work is second to everything else.
I get the feeling that you're going to get smacked upside the head by TJ for saying that.
Pick a foxhole now dude, I am.
@molgrips He seems a good chap though, I don't think he meant to be judgmental like some are accusing. Just has a bit of a strong head on him in regards to morality - I find that a blessing and a curse in others who are like that. You just have to accept that is who they are without taking it too personally - there is a time and a place where they are really useful to know, interact with or have around.
work is always second. Work to live not live to work
Molgrips - I don't get it. Not a single judgmental word or sentiment to that statement. I have no idea why you think there is.
I can see how others viewed it as judgmental, I just don't think you meant it that way. You have quite a direct and blunt writing style, so that's just how I read your posts these days. You guys need to take your arguing with a pinch of salt more, it's all just banter.
You would not do newton means to leith in 1.30 apart from in the middle of the night. try it at peak times and it could be 3 hrs by car
I've done prestwick to Leith in less than 90 mins many a time, and I'm 20 mins further away than newton mearns.
I’ve not had the chance to read every comment on here but the point that public transport has been a victim of political decisions is exactly right. I work for a local authority public transport body and by way of context our overall budget has reduced by 45% in seven years. What’s left (which isn’t much) is pretty much already accounted for by borrowing costs or statutory travel for the elderly and disabled (we spend £26m on this alone).
So when a bus service becomes commercially untenable, operators either cut the frequency (less attractive), put the prices up (again less attractive) or pull it all together. Historically we might have then considered subsidising the service but that budget is already fully allocated and then some at the start of each year.
All of the above is as a direct result of local authority budget austerity measures.
If you want public transport to work it needs investment and also make the alternatives (namely private car commuting) less attractive. Measures like work place parking levies (see Nottingham), restrictions on new private car parking and congestion or emissions charging. But these are difficult political decisions which aren’t vote winners so are generally avoided.
Ffs let's not get started on parking these commuter vehicles.
Update on the cupholders.
This bus has no cupholders.
90 mile round trip for me each day. Bus is my only public transport option.
I've worked out it costs me £15 to drive and park (excluding wear and tear on car) and £13 per day to sit on a freezing bus in the morning. On the way home there isn't even a light you can use to read by.
Even where there is good, frequent, cheap, reliable public transport such as the town I live in car owners don't use it. When I do the people using it are clearly the ones who don't have a car. It seems car owners would rather pay more to sit in trafic (rather than waft along the bus lanes), waste time hunting for a parking space, and pay for said space rather catch a bus.
Habit, ignorance, comfort, fear of strangers ? I don't know.
Why is this the only thread where you’re not allowed to be judgemental? My first instinct on hearing of a 90 mile round trip commute is that that is not a good thing. Some people may have little choice, but most people in that situation appear to accept it with reluctance, whilst they could have done more to avoid the situation.
I took a job with a 90 mile round trip commute to escape a hellish local job I'd been stuck in for five years. It took me another four to escape the job with the big commute, and it wasn't for lack of effort. National Cycle To Work day was a particular pain... 🙂
"All of the above is as a direct result of local authority budget austerity measures."
At the risk of sounding like someone on the Tory right, no it's not. It's because you took on debt when budgets were higher and because you're subsidising loss making services. That's not investment - investment gives you a return (like, say, the 147% return that the privatised public transport operators make) not a never ending money pit.
Some people may have little choice, but most people in that situation appear to accept it with reluctance, whilst they could have done more to avoid the situation
Depends on work (location, job type etc - not everyone can work from home), family (where the partner works, where the kids go to school), any dependents (older relatives nearby who need care), house prices, public transport availability/reliability. Very very few people get to choose all aspects of that and you can easily end up living mid way between your job 50 miles that way --> and your partner's job 50 miles that way <--
And people change jobs, start/end relationships - it's not as easy as just saying "oh I'll move to be just round the corner from my new job".
My first job out of uni: industrial estate out the back of the nuclear power station at Heysham. Very little decent housing nearby but if I'd have lived in Heysham, I'd have needed a car to do anything other than go to work. Or I could live in Lancaster within walking distance of shops, amenities, railway station etc and drive to work. Lancaster was an easy win (actually I rode to work but you get my point).
Public transport should FACILITATE lifestyle choices, not dictate them. And slagging people off for "choosing" to live somewhere and commute is the wrong end of the argument. Slag off Government for failing to provide the means to move people around efficiently.
Public transport should FACILITATE lifestyle choices, not dictate them.
Yes. But it works the other way too. The lovely rural areas of Britain, where many people would like to live, are struggling economically. So better transport links would allow people to live there and work in the bigger towns, but that would also bring money back to the rural places which would in turn grow their economies. Then, with good transport links companies can relocate themselves to the rural places and not be at a disadvantage.
This has already happened in the South East because you can get to and from London really easily. Money and business comes in and out of the capital. With better transport links that money and business could go further. If we make it a 90 minute trip to Manchester or Leeds then that will grow the economy in those places too. We grow by spreading the money around not letting it concentrate - which incidentally is one of the key aims and benefits of the EU.
Basically, geographical separation of any kind inhibits economic activity. So we should invest to minimise that; and the only sustainable way is with a really good rail network. The Victorians knew this, that's why railways were such a big thing.
The lovely rural areas of Britain, where many people HAVE to live, are struggling economically.
FTFY 😊
It's not like we can close down the countryside, do away with forestry, food production, tourism etc and all live in large cities.
The Victorians knew this, that’s why railways were such a big thing.
I call strawman.
Railways were a big thing because they were the only way to go long distances.
The Victorians did not all own a Ford Focus and a 3 series per household.
Nor could they trek to a local airport and jump on an Airbus.
What I said was a commute by car is always a result of choices made.
And I'm asserting that it isn't, not always. Or rather, it's often Hobson's Choice.
I could choose to work in a different profession, starting again from the bottom after doing what I do since I was 12. Or I could choose to move into the city, effectively halving my salary with rent / mortgage repayments. But really, are either of those particularly attractive choices?
I can see how others viewed it as judgmental, I just don’t think you meant it that way.
+1.
It's could be construed as belittling people's problems, like telling someone suffering from depression to cheer up. If someone is finding something challenging then just going "but it's easy, what's wrong with you?" isn't helpful.
As RBW said, I don't for a second think that that's what you actually thought or meant. But it's how it could come across if folk didn't know you better.