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dangerousbrain - the journey I make most often is Leith to Milgavie - so 3 miles from the city centre one end to 7 miles the other. this is to visit my parents. Both them and I of course made a deliberate decision to live where public transport is good.
So from my door the busstop is across the road I have a choice of 30 buses an hour at £1.70 into town and that drops me off at the station. I then have a choice of 10+ trains per hour to Glasgow including 2 an hour that go direct to milngavie. £13ish off peak return to Glasgow, 16 to milngavie. My folks live 5 mins walk from milngavie station
the quickest way to do it is cycle to waverly, get the fast train to glasgow and cycle to milngavie. Thats £13 return and takes around an hour and a half. If I do the whole thing by public transport its just under 2 hours and costs £20
the buses are also hybrids and have free wi fi
My point really tho is simple - public transport need not be rubbish - its political decisions that make it so
The return journey is over a hundred miles and takes between 1.5 and 3 hours by car depending on traffic each way and costs as much in petrol alone let alone all the other expenses as public transport.
I don't use the train often but when I do it usually involves travelling between Skipton and Leeds on Northern trains which amazingly (going by the press and other Northern users experience) are pretty much always on time and uses modern, quiet rolling stock. They are actually bringing in new trains to replace the ones that were still newish and decent!
Problem is the cost. Not so much if travelling alone but we went as a family of four the other day (one under 5), drove 10 miles to Keighley to get in to the West Yorkshire subsidised zone and it still cost £21. It would have been less than half to drive and that includes hospital parking cost.
For short journeys of around 5 miles it is cheaper and more convenient for 3 people to book a taxi than use public transport networks. Result - busses in and out of town are more or less empty but taxis all over the place. Might be different in London etc.
The fundamental problem is our lifestyles, I don't think there is a transport system in the world that could cope with our self-inflicted stampede into the the city centres, every day at the same time. It's nonsensical if you looked at it from an external point of view.
The future is remote office hubs etc. Doesn't help everyone, and I can't be bothered looking up the statistics right now, but I bet that would take about 30-50% of the morning rush hour off the roads.
Of course, even bigger political upheaval might result in an economy where both partners don't need to work, reducing traffic by another huge swathe, and perhaps also cutting out the dreaded school run element if one partner actually had the time to walk the kids to school instead of drive.
Our village has endless problems with congestion and commuting times (central belt scotland, just outside of Edinburgh, car 35 min, bike 45 min, bus 1hr 15 min). All of the solutions just depend on trying to move the traffic elsewhere (sneaky Fifers using our village as a rat run!) or somehow magically investing in new buses which won't just end up in the same queues as all the cars.
it would be £15 in petrol alone for most cars
If most cars were Rover 3500s perhaps.
Rough figures: I get maybe 50mpg overall - way more on motorways, less in urban traffic. Diesel is about £1.40 a litre, so roughly £5/gallon. Your 100 mile round trip would be £10 in fuel, much less if I was putting any effort into driving economically.
Public transport can be more convenient in certain circumstances, but it's only really ever more cost-effective if you're travelling alone.
i find public transport only really makes financial and "hassle" sense if I'm travelling alone.
once we are travelling as a family the car seems to be about 1/3 of the price (total cost) - almost always quicker due to connection times - which are not that excessive in the least but any stopped time is stopped time. miss a train/get a bus replacement (high chance on the weekend at the moment) and your boned.
+ the galic shrug when the last train doesn't come and your left high and dry.... used to get the train too and from uni in Dundee and experienced this all too often.
of course it doesn't have to be like this but if you use the lowest bidder you often get the lowest service. I'm open to it and it still doesn't make sense - so you have your work cut out when you are trying to convince the car is king brigade.
I wrote a big reply but lost it, but to summarise.
For me on my own to get to work it’s the same cost (ignoring car ownership costs) but I’d have to leave home an hour earlier to get there on time. Meaning out the door at 0510am and for some shifts the trains don’t start early enough.
When we’re both on the same shift driving is much cheaper.
Train into Glasgow city centre is better than driving.
Staying local, costs aren't bad, Blue Star do an £8 ticket for the week on the 18, 16 and a couple of others.
But it's cost me £104 for a return from SOU to PRT, with free reservation for a bike.
I'd like to think when Labour gets in and gradually renationalised our train network as leases expire, that tickets will be cheaper and not sending our fare money to the likes of China.
I use public transport all the time unless I'm riding. Haven't owned a car in 16 years. No buses in the villages where I live, so time for a cargo bike soon.
My main annoyance - apart from the cost - is the disruption to services at weekend if I have to be in the office before early afternoon on a Monday. The replacement bus servises won't take bikes so I can often get stuck in Weymouth for an extra night.
Flashy's personal plane yesterday:
Cougar - check my maths - £1.40 a litre x 4,5 l / gallon = £6.30 a gallon. so at 50 mpg its 12.60 in petrol?
can yo really get 50 mpg in a journey that includes 12 miles of congested urban driving and 40 miles of congested motorway?
Petrol is not the only additional cost anyway - wear and tear ie tyres and servicing?
So quite a few folk have mentioned lack of funding/investment etc. So if they chuck a load of money at it my ticket price between derby and Nottingham will surely go up? And I probably still won't be able to get back to where I want.
You don’t live in Reading – I can tell 🙂
I looked at trains to Reading from Harrogate for two. 135 each, 3 months in advance on specific off peak services. I'm sort of hoping the trains in Reading are magic at that price. (we'll be driving and it'll not be any slower)
can yo really get 50 mpg in a journey that includes 12 miles of congested urban driving and 40 miles of congested motorway?
do you really need to travel at congested times is more the question - bus or car.
and I of course made a deliberate decision to live where public transport is good.
I take it you factor that into your ticket cost, it probably puts two or three small cars on your house price (or 5 big German ones in London) 😉
For short journeys of around 5 miles it is cheaper and more convenient for 3 people to book a taxi than use public transport networks. Result – busses in and out of town are more or less empty but taxis all over the place.
Busses, for the most part are horrible and slow. I had a regular 5 and a bit mile commute and the public transport choice was bus, I cycled instead it was a lot faster.
Home to work on a bus: £7.80 both ways. Two buses each way. 3 hours each way.
Home to work on train £6.90 both ways. Two buses and a train each way. 3.5 hours each way.
Car. £3 each way. 25 mins each way.
Edinburgh state run buses
You know they are awful right?
Well. The busses are grand
The frequency is fine. Cost it fine. Contactless is great.
BUT the routes....
Hillend or straiton to Herriot watt.
Via Princes Street?!
dangrousbrain - yes I did. Its a cheap place to buy ( very when I bought) . Still comparatively cheap for living in an expensive city.
I looked at trains to Reading from Harrogate for two. 135 each, 3 months in advance on specific off peak services.
From the nice man in seat 61:
Beware of booking too far ahead...
Beware of this 'trap': There are several weeks at the extremity of the booking horizon when expensive Anytime & Off-Peak fares go on sale but before cheap Advance fares go on sale. This 'trap' catches out many overseas visitors to the UK, desperate to book train trips months ahead.
Many more info here:
https://www.seat61.com/UK-train-travel.htm
"Public transport is ALWAYS slower than the car."
Clearly someone who doesn't commute to Central London. It's 23miles door to door to our office and I've driven twice in 7 years of being there (plus the struggle to find somewhere to park). 3hrs doors to door to drive in morning/evening traffic. It's 1:45 mins Tube/train/walk and 1:35 mins to cycle.
Many more info here
Ta
"molgrips
"At this political time may I remind you that the reason it’s shit is because of underfunding, and that is a political decision."
Underfunding????
"The government (on average) now subsidises the railway industry by about three times as much as in the years just before legislation to privatise it came into place, almost 25 years ago exactly. That’s taking into account inflation, which is the change in how much things cost over time".
https://fullfact.org/economy/how-much-does-government-subsidise-railways/
It would take me 3 hours to get to work on public transport, it takes 22 mins in the car.
I'm a bit closer at 58mins and 5mins.
I won't add 2 hours onto my day, I could try to lie and say "if only blah blah blah" but I won't.
I cycle it if I'm not doing the school run that day or I'm sure I haven't got any meetings / sit visits that day, but it's rare. We used to have a pool van which was handy, but we couldn't justify the cost and I didn't replace it at the end of it's lease.
We've got a new transport hub opening just up the road from the office which is going to increase capacity which is what we need here, some days there's simply no more room on the buses and trains to safely take any more passengers. Things might change then. I'd be quite happy to take a 15 min bus journey, but I won't take an hour and I won't risk the scrum or not being able to get on at all.
I'm pretty lucky I guess. Milton Keynes to London. Every now and then it gets a bit snarled up, normally down to some poor soul using the train line to end their lives - so I can't get upset with the train companies for that.
Price is expensive, but its a 60 mile commute. I do pay first class so obviously the cost is expensive - but I want to ensure I have a seat.
From my door to central London takes me about 1 hour 15. No way could I drive it in that time, nor would I want to.
"public transport seems to be priced as a direct alternative to car ownership which means that as soon as you sink your money into a car..."
I've sunk more money into public transport through general taxation than I have into my car.
I can only really speak for Stockholm, but...
Bus: 5 minute walk to stop, 20Kr trip to work taking about 15 minutes, 5 minute walk from stop to work. Repeat for the way home. Bus is relatively direct, relatively crowded in the morning, but is every 10 minutes or less. repeat for the way home.
Subway: 5 minute walk to stop (same stop, just below ground), 30Kr trip to other stop with a change from one line to the next. Total time is about 20 minutes and trains are relatively crowded (less than London) and relatively frequent. 5 minute walk from stop to work. Repeat for the way home.
Car: 5 minute walk to garage and 3 minutes to get out of it. 15-20 minute drive to work and a 15 minute search for a parking space. Approximately 150Kr to park it for the day.
Bike: 2 minutes to collect my bike from the shed in the basement. 15 minutes (on a bad day) to get to the secure shed at work. 10 minutes to shower and get to my desk. 0Kr* a day.
Bike wins for me. Ever. Damn. Time.
Even taking into account the maintenance and servicing costs (*) every six months, it is cheaper, quicker and better for me**. It also means I do not have to travel with people. I hate people.
** Leaving aside taxis trying to kill me
"normally down to some poor soul using the train line to end their lives"
An emotive statement, but in the year that I used that line we had train breakdowns, unsuitable weather, crew shortages, strikes, lots of unexplained cancels, power failures and points failures. And one suicide.
Underfunding????
“The government (on average) now subsidises the railway industry by about three times as much as in the years just before legislation to privatise it came into place, almost 25 years ago exactly. That’s taking into account inflation, which is the change in how much things cost over time”.
It's still clearly not enough, is it?
Maybe we need to cut out the fat-cat investors skimming money off the top. Maybe ooh, I dunno, re-nationalise railways? If only there was a political party promising that.
The problem is that public transport seems to be priced as a direct alternative to car ownership
It's not, it's priced to manage demand. We're complaining about high prices AND packed trains - so where's the operating company's incentive to reduce prices? This is one of several fatal flaws in the privatisation concept.
What the country needs is massive investment in the rail network - we need more capacity in and out of London AS WELL as lines that go across the country instead of via London. But as soon as someone tries to get that ball rolling the whole country bitches about it cos it's not exactly the line that they personally want. HS2 might not be your ideal solution, but HS3-25 will probably include that.
40 miles/50 mins in the car
Or
Walk to train station, train to Newcastle, walk to bus stop, train to Darlington, find
bus stop, bus to Barnard Castle. Bloke I worked with did the same except he went from the centre of Newcastle to Kingston Park (not near the Metro) and it took him 3-4h each way.
**** that.
You don’t live in Reading – I can tell 🙂
Can't tell if it's faster or slower, Reading is just shit for any form of transport that isn't a train to Paddington. Which is why a shoebox in the city center is half a million, and 2 miles away is Whitley and Oxford Road.
They've built a Park and Ride at Meeroak*. I guess to convince people to drive as far as J11 and then give up, wait for a bus, then sit in the traffic in a bus 20-30minutes later than they would be in a car. Meeroak isn't a village either, infact the whole thing is about as hard to get to if you live in one of the surrounding villages as it's possible to be. And they won't put a bus stop in closer to the villages! The ironic thing is the fullest I've ever seen it was for an <17 driving lessons day.
Reading is a town who's prosperity is based on the idea that it's easy to get to/from, but actually isn't. But then people still do it. If you include fighting through the IDR and into Queens Road, I can comfortably cycle to the city center quicker from J11, and see maybe 10-15 bikes!
Train prices are crazy. I want to go to London with the other half. It's £300 on the train, or £50 in the car...
Yes, you have to factor in the cost of car ownership, but let's face it, most people in the UK now own or have access to a car. And they're hardly being encouraged to give them up.
The fundamental problem is our lifestyles, I don’t think there is a transport system in the world that could cope with our self-inflicted stampede into the the city centres, every day at the same time. It’s nonsensical if you looked at it from an external point of view.
I agree, and I don't think the transport problem can ever be fully resolved until we see a serious cultural shift. We've built our entire society around road networks and the use of personal transport, and we've equated it to Freedom. Yet we've almost built a prison for anyone who doesn't own one, including our own children. And there is a complete blindness to the negative impact this setup has on our daily lives.
Technology does open up a lot of door in terms of not only working remotely, but setting up remote businesses, and providing opportunities for local retailers. It's time to bring people and businesses back into small towns and villages. Which of course won't happen just by creating the opportunities. It has to be made desirable.
5 of us going to birmingham for a gig tonight, "dad" (me) would be expected to pick up the entire 100 quid train cost and one of the kids ain't mine so we're going in the car. Reckon the audi smoker will piss it on 15 quids worth of diesel and the parking is less than a fiver overnight. Only time I ever consider the train is if it's going to be a bit of a sesh with mrs ws and I have the safety then of not driving after a night on the ale.
Went to Nottingham (from Cambridge) for a gig this weekend, 4 of us as a group, the thought of public transport was never even mentioned, it's just so rarely a better option than taking the car.
I dod ride to work though, as does my wife most days of the week. Again, public transport would be slower, more expensive and less convenient.
Cougar – check my maths – £1.40 a litre x 4,5 l / gallon = £6.30 a gallon. so at 50 mpg its 12.60 in petrol?
can yo really get 50 mpg in a journey that includes 12 miles of congested urban driving and 40 miles of congested motorway?
To answer your second question first: I've just checked on my car and its consumption stats for all time - that's every mile I've done in the last two years, with the car permanently in Sport mode - shows an average of 55.6mpg. And as I alluded to earlier I have a pretty heavy right foot, I reckon I could make a considerable improvement on that if I drove a little greener. Whether that bears any resemblance to the types of roads you (don't) drive on though I've no idea.
The figure I gave earlier was a finger-in-the-air guess, but to put some figures in: diesel is £1.261 at ASDA, I overestimated earlier. That times £4.55 = £5.73/gallon. Your 100 mile trip will take 100 * (1/55.6 gallons per mile) = 1.8 gallons. 1.8 * £5.73 = £10.31 for that trip. So I was 31p out.
Lol! I just checked price of a ticket from Havant - London Waterloo. £71 return! That's a similar distance to Glasgow - Edinburgh. Fortunately I don't have to do it 🙂
Nationalise it.
Invest in it.
It's supposed to be a public service, not a money making enterprise.
It’s supposed to be a public service, not a money making enterprise.
The thing is, very few Public Transport Companies make any money.
Of the train companies, Thameslink is making a good profit, along with Southern. GWR are doing alright (not massive profits), MML are doing OK, as they have a monopoly. West Coast are only just viable, East Coast is not doing well at all, it has, effectively, gone bust twice in the last 10 years.Scotrail has got massive subsidies, they are losing a lot, but the Scottish Parliament keep backing them.
Northern is a basket case, they cover a vast area, with price concious passengers - people want better value for money in the North, and also wages are not comparable to the London area.When it was last tendered, the DofT thought there would be no growth across the region, and factored that in by not supplying new trains etc. Growth suddenly went mad, hence trains were packed, but there was no money to buy new ones.
Local buses outside of the main metro areas are nearly all losing money, and only stay afloat due to subsidies either by the council, or Government.Thats why our local buses finish at 8pm now, and dont run at all on Sundays. The Council was paying them to run those empty buses.
What is a surprise to many people is that the Railways are so regulated, it makes making a profit very hard. The DofT tells the Rail Companies what trains to run, and when to run them, and how much profit they are expected to make. It also orders unsuitable rolling stock at exhorbitant prices. the current Hitachi trains on East Coast are something like double the cost of the old class 91's and coaches.
The Great Western electrification farce was all due to Railtrack, a nationalised company, ruled, again, by the DofT. Rather than finish the elctrification, which was years late, they cancelled 'non-core' parts of it, so now each train, rather than being only electric, has to have a diesel engine or 2 on each train. Another 50 tonnes of dead weight to carry on each train when it is running on electric. And far more complicated to service. And far more expensive to run. Again, over double the cost of other new trains. This was all specified by the Department of Transport.
Boarding bob. Nope – cheaper by train for one person. And quicker and more convenient
Yeah, in your Utopian world; as someone else said, my journey to work can take between 20-40 minutes by car, depending on traffic, it would take at least two hours by public transport, if there even was any public transport available to get me to work for 7am, which would involve me leaving home at roughly 4.30am, and on those days I’d be getting home at around 6.30pm. Do you do a regular 14 hour day, including travel, tj?
Then there’s getting to gigs in the evening, or rather, getting home. I’d love to be able to catch a cheap train to Bristol, then home again, but GWR won’t run a train back from Bristol later than 10.32pm. The Opeth gig I was at last night finished at 11.05pm, and the venue is a good thirty to forty minute walk from the station, so in order to catch the train I’d have had to leave at roughly 9.45pm.
The band cam on at 9.00, so I’d have seen 45 minutes of a two hour concert.
Yeah, you’re right, it’s really so much more convenient...
#rollseyes.
Oh, and the mate I went with lives six miles away, so one or other of us would have to drive out to pick him up, or him drive to me, or get a taxi, which would easily add ten quid to the cost. Each way.
Bugger that.
Yes I do a regular 13 hour day. Thats my shift pattern
However work is 5 mins by bike from my flat.
thing is I took decisions to live and work in such place that public transport would work for me.
My point simply is that public transport can ad often does work really well. When it doesn't its because of political decision or as in your case deciding to live where public transport is tricky
thats not public transport is crap - thats politicians have destroyed it and you have chosen a lifestyle where you use a car.
Count where do you live and work?
thing is I took decisions to live and work in such place that public transport would work for me.
I hate how people assume that everyone could easily choose to work 5 mins from their house but opt instead for 60 min commutes. Get your head out of your arse, it's ridiculous.
I used to work a 20 min walk from my house, then I lost my job, and the only one I could find was in the next city. It was either that or abandon my career. That's how it happens. People don't just go 'ooh, if I drive 2 hours a day I can afford some new curtains, my neighbours will be dead jealous!'
FFS.
Or move?
Its really very simple - I have taken decisions that allow me this lifestyle. You have taken different ones
No one HAS to do a long commute. Its always as a result of choices made
Public transport does need work. It's a 15 min drive to my wife's work from here, a 25 min cycle min cycle and about 80 mins by bus or 40 mins + 20 mins walk if you can.
This is because the bus routes only go in and out of the city centre.
Or move?
Moving costs money, did you not know that?
Its really very simple – I have taken decisions that allow me this lifestyle. You have taken different ones
Great. Those decisions worked for you. You are oversimplifying life, purely so that you can look down on people. This is shitty beahviour, please stop. EVERYONE wants a short commute - commuting is utter misery. But people have had to do it as the lesser of two evils. Because life isn't always easy. Stop pretending it is, it's really ****ing winding me up.
I left one job for another, and I moved house. I then got fired from that job. Yeah it was my fault. You going to gloat about that too? Mistakes happen. Things get ****ed up. You refuse to listen and simply crow about how brilliant you are. Please, show some understanding or stop typing.
Its really very simple – I have taken decisions that allow me this lifestyle. You have taken different ones
Ok, boomer.