[Closed] Why buy a MacBook (or Mac for that matter?)

molgrips... not every file system needs defragging...

If by "need defragging" you mean "suffers from fragmentation," I challenge you to name one that's in widespread modern usage.

FAT - ostensibly introduced fragmentation to the masses.
NTFS - initially claimed not to need defragging by MS when it was introduced, they later said 'oops' and backpedalled. Has real-time optimisation to keep fragmentation down but still gets fragmented.
HFS+ - like NTFS, attempts to keep fragmentation to a minimum on the fly but can still get fragmented.
ext2 - needs defragging.
ext3 - can't be defragged natively (well, without converting back to ext2) but still fragments over time.
ext4 - recognises issues with ext3, proposes to re-introduce defrag.

"Can't be defragged" isn't the same as "doesn't need defragging." However, if when you say "need" you're arguing that fragmentation isn't a massive performance issue on a modern machine except in certain very specific circumstances, be that on Windows, Linux or OSX, I'd agree with you. It's largely a non-issue.

If as I suspect it's merely a badly researched attempt at willy-waving that "the Mac doesn't need defragging and PCs do," modern Windows OSes run a weekly scheduled defrag task on a very low system priority in order to keep fragmentation to a minimum. Most people aren't even aware of this and it can of course be disabled. The Mac, however, doesn't do this; not because it's not required but because it's not possible.

To defrag a Mac requires third party tools (not free) and requires exclusive access to the volume whist it runs - so you can't use your computer. It's also inherently risky, something Microsoft managed to fix back in the 90's.

This is fun, anyone else want to make any wildly inaccurate claims to the supremacy of their platform or have I made my point? (-: Hey I know, shall we do viruses next?

modern Windows OSes run a weekly scheduled defrag task on a very low system priority in order to keep fragmentation to a minimum

Ah, I didn't know this. That could explain why when I checked my system after a year of daily use it was only 1% fragmented...

Came in with Vista IIRC - W7 does it certainly. Scheduled for the small hours of weds night (thurs morning I suppose) and will defer if the PC's off at that time.

I don't [i]think [/i]XP does it by default, couldn't be 100% sure without checking though.

(NTFS and HFS by their nature are less susceptible to fragmentation; both have algorithms to avoid it.)

Cougar; do what mate?

S'ok; I don't actually want to know what any of that means. I don't need to; I have a Mac. 🙂

I never found myself going - I can do this on my pc, why can't I do that on my mac.

I can't curve text in Pages . grrrrrrrr

I don't actually want to know what any of that means. I don't need to; I have a Mac.

I couldn't have put it better myself.

They look nice and are probably the most well-built laptops in terms of the metal casing etc.

I'm sort of reluctantly coming round to the idea of a mac as it makes sense for my hobbies/work - Final Cut Pro and Logic are really good bits of software. Logic especially, probably the most flexible DAW and loads of good plugins. Apple stuff is still overpriced though.

I've been thinking about upgrading my HP laptop (running windows 7) and have considered both PC and Mac to replace it. I'm not a fan boy of either so consider myself to be fairly neutral on the matter. This is my take on it...

Windows 7 is good, far far better than any other MS OS I've used (although having said that I had my first BSOD the other day, I think it was something to do with an adobe flash update?). Anyway, the OSX is supposed to be really good too so I'll give it the benefit of the doubt (not used it extensively) and say its a bit better than windows 7. Now, price has been discussed at length here with some saying Macs are over priced and other claiming they are good value for money.

Here is the direct comparison I have been making with Sony Vaio laptops (I consider the Vaio to be quality PC laptop and because of this, it is more pricey than an equivalent HP for example):

17" macbook pro
Intel Core i5 2.53Ghz
4GB memory 1066MHz DDR3
500GB 7200rpm
Standard DVD drive
NVIDIA GeForce GT 330M with 512 MB

Sony Vaio F Series 16.4"
Intel Core i5 2.53Ghz
4GB memory 1066MHz DDR3
500GB 7200rpm
Standard DVD drive
NVIDIA GeForce GT 425M with 1GB

As you see, very similar specs although the Sony has a superior graphics card. Now, the price for the Mac is £1930 whilst the Vaio is £908.99. That price difference is outrageous. Yes the mac looks nicer and is more robust, probably has a longer lasting battery (although it'll cost you a small fortune to change it when it does give up) and has a slightly better OS, but is that really worth a 112% price difference?!! I don't think so. The Vaio can even have a bluray drive for a little more and numerous other better value upgrades.

To me the MacBooks are just way over priced. For a similar price I could get a very high end Vaio with more (and faster clock speed) RAM, i7 processor, massive fast hard drive, far far superior graphics etc etc and still have a spare few hundred quid. Even if OSX is as good as all the fan boys say it is, it won't be good enough to even match, let alone outperform that kind of spec.

To the OP, if you have £300 to spend, I think you are better off getting a new windows laptop because you won't get much mac for that.

My windows 7 installation doesn't need to be defragged at all. Ever.

But it is on an SSD so I suppose that's cheating a bit!

I'd steer clear of Vaio laptops to be honest. Loads of crap installed and they are overpriced. Toshiba and HP have been good for me. Still have crap on them though - all laptops do.

If you could, I'd buy one with no OS installed and a plain copy of W7.

All this BS about Macs being better for design stuff... WTF?

It's all about the software, and nowadays there is nothing of any value that won't run on ether platform.

Apple need to worth their mice though, they suck the big one.

Yeah, but it'll look shit in the coffee shop.

http://www.ubuntu.com/desktop/get-ubuntu/download

have a look at ubuntu, just use the standard version and burn it onto a CD, you can boot from the CD and make sure that your hardware runs it

best of all, you can compare two different operating systems without paying a bean 🙂

I'd steer clear of Vaio laptops to be honest. Loads of crap installed and they are overpriced. Toshiba and HP have been good for me. Still have crap on them though - all laptops do.

If you could, I'd buy one with no OS installed and a plain copy of W7.

Out of all the plasticy windows laptops, I think (assumed) vaio would be of better quality. I know all these laptops come with crap installed, but I would wipe and install my retail version of W7. Dell Studio XPS 16 is my other option and they don't come with so much bloatware installed. The screen fell apart on a HP I looked at in Curry's the other day!

Wow. Three pages, I think that's the longest I've seen a completely unrelated IT thread run for before someone's suggested trying Linux. You're getting better, well done!

Must say, I do like the Ubuntu logo:

[img] [/img]

The thing is, you get what you pay for. Actually, that's not right; it's more accurate to say you don't get what you don't pay for.

Macs (and indeed Apple products generally) have excellent build quality; for that you pay (if the earlier comment is correct) a 100% premium.

My experience of Sony is they're very good on the whole, but you pay a premium (10-20% maybe) for the name. I've also had silly compatibility issues and driver problems with Sony hardware in the past where they've not quite done things by the book.

Once you get into the realms of budget laptops, something has to give. Look at bike pricing. You can buy a hardtail for 200 quid, 500 quid, a grand - they're all superficially the same spec; they all have "21 gears" and "front suspension" in the same way that a £300 PC might have the same CPU and RAM as a £600 one. Where do you cut costs? You either drop the specification, the component quality or the build quality.

Sadly, most people buy technology without either knowledge or research on what they're buying, which is why cheap crap is so prevalent; it's what the public demand. Digital cameras are a prime example of this; it's all about the megapixels, that's all anyone cares about. You can build a camera out of blancmange with a plastic lens, and if you stuck "20 megapixels on it" it'd sell like hot cakes.

You can't compare an entry-level laptop with a Macbook and then in one breath go "gosh, the Macs are really expensive" and in the other "this laptop is cheap crap and falls apart." It should be fairly self-evident what's going on here.

I don't actually want to know what any of that means. I don't need to; I have a Mac.

I couldn't have put it better myself.

That was my point about that mouse fiasco - I just wanted it to work. Like it promised on the box... [sob!]

I have stuff to do & have no interest in spending my day fixing shonkyness. I'm a consumer - not tech support. I DID manage to Google a fix for it, but I'd rather not waste my time.

And a special 4) to Looptail, who spent an hour and a half trying to get a Microsoft mouse working on a Mac, failed, and blamed Microsoft. I have your petard here somewhere, hold on.

😆 😆
I totally agree. You're right - It's my own fault.
But I think some Apple stuff is a joke. So I bought a cheaper and more comfortable "[i]universal[/i]" mouse.

It's a mouse, I thought - For pointing at stuff - How difficult can it be to make it work on more than one platform. 🙄

If I bought a pair of shoes & it said on the box they were my usual size, I would expect them to come close to fitting my feet.
Not be totally un-usable as supplied, in different sizes, with missing laces, both left-footed, and to need patching before use.

I paid for something that was supposed to work out of the box. I don't want to learn a totally new skill set in order to fix it first.

And yes - I did use MS up until last year.
Like I said, I didn't pay for either system - I just find the Apple works nicer (mice excepted). And keeps working. And doesn't cause me stress or expect me to be an engineer.

The downside is that I sometimes need to take it places, which I find slightly embarrassing, as it feels like it invariably projects some sort of statement about me and my oh-so-chic lifestyle choices [cough!].

People have even tried to chat to me about it - Like we're big friends together, in some sort of Maccy "[i]Smug Club[/i]".

Very odd.

OP, you should consider a dell mini 10v, hackintoshed to run MAC OSX

A mini macbook for about £250

I have stuff to do & have no interest in spending my day fixing shonkyness

How many frigging times? YOU DO NOT HAVE TO SPEND ALL DAY FIXING PCS!

Christ alive.

I haven't had a single issue with this laptop. Plus, I bought a Microsoft mouse and it worked perfectly.

I don't mind a computer discussion but you're talking bollocks. You're making out that PCs necessarily come with loads of problems and work required, which is absolutely not true.

I totally agree. You're right - It's my own fault.

That wasn't really what I was meaning. More that it's the Mac's fault for not supporting it rather than the mouse's fault for being unsupported.

Only a few edits before yours, someone was complaining about how crap it was that you'd to go looking for drivers for hardware when you connect stuff to a PC, neatly sidestepping the facts that a) it's not really so unreasonable to occasionally need a driver when a PC is expected to work with any old third party crap that gets plugged into it, even stuff released [i]after [/i]the OS was, and b) in the vast, vast majority of cases you don't need to do that any more anyway.

I found it funny that if it were the other way round and a Mac mouse didn't work on a PC, everyone would be all "ZOMG PCS R TEH CRAPZORS" and yet when the Mac fails at something it's still Microsoft's fault.

Anyway, as you were. (-:

Another thumbs up for Linux.
Just stuck Ubuntu 10.10 on my old-ish laptop and it's like a new machine. Totally bogged down by Windows Vista, and I'm more than happy to accept that it was all the guff installed that was slowing down the HDD, but my laptop now works how I think it ought to.
Install via LiveCD took about 20 minutes. Recognised all my hardware in the process, so within 30 seconds of turning it on the first time after installing I'm ready to rock. Internet is fine, email program is at least as good as Outlook, chat/social client does exactly what it ought to. I can't fault it. It really is a whole different OS to how it was the last time I tried (Ubuntu 6). That involved a 30-minute faff trying to get stuff working then a hasty Windows re-install. Not this time.

Oh, and if Photoshop is so important to you, then you'll be able to explain why you *have* to use that and why GIMP just doesn't cut it. With beautifully illustrated diagrams of course.

You're making out that PCs necessarily come with loads of problems and work required, which is absolutely not true.

It's probably fairer to say that it's [i]usually [/i]not true. (-: It's quite easy to buy a pup if you put your mind to it; the issue isn't that PCs are inherently problematic so much as you've more freedom to buy rubbish.

All this BS about Macs being better for design stuff... WTF?

I don't fully get it either since most graphics designers will probably be using Adobe software. Apparently the colour profile management and calibration stuff is better though, and also their gamut (or something?) is more accurate to print than you can get on Windows? Dunno about that, I don't do anything for print, it's all digital now innit 😛

For video the advantage is FCP, nothing else as good for windows without paying AVID prices. Logic Pro is also surprisingly quite well priced.

I agree.

Microsoft have a far greater challenge than Apple do, because as Cougar says there is far more crap out there. It's a completely different open market and always has been. Do apple still vet every device and driver and control what can be produced for Mac?

When you take into account what they have to deal with, MS have done an amazing job.

... eventually. (-:

Please, please, please;

There's a pic of a lovely bottom up there (How did that happen???) ^, and you lot are arguing abut Logic Gates or something (Are they? I bloody hope not).

Please.

You can't compare an entry-level laptop with a Macbook and then in one breath go "gosh, the Macs are really expensive" and in the other "this laptop is cheap crap and falls apart." It should be fairly self-evident what's going on here.

Yeah of course, I said that the macbook is more robustly built but I was comparing it to what is probably considered to be a high quality windows laptop (I'm open to experiences that say otherwise), not an entry level machine. I could have compared it to an even cheaper, same spec, poorer built, HP but I thought I'd try and make the comparison as realistic as possible. As far as I can find, there isn't a windows laptop of equivalent build quality to a MacBook Pro but I personally don't think the better build quality is worth the extra £1000+. I am also fully aware that companies cut corners with motherboards etc. but again, a slightly cheaper motherboard for a £1000+ saving? Yes please! Who's to say the parts in a Mac are of better quality than a Vaio anyway?

If a company brought out a windows based laptop in an apple style case of comparable quality, I'd jump on it as, although it would be a premium price for a windows laptop, I'm sure it would still cost far far less than the mac equivalent.

😯

Like, erm.... ^

Like, erm.... ^

😀 Sorry I'm a bit behind, posted it too late!

My cuz got a Sony Viao the screen cracked under gaurantee, Sony amitted the problem was on thier part but it's been a ball ache getting a replacement from them.

want one? buy it then.
don't want one? buy something else.
it's not that difficult.

i looked into getting a p.c.laptop but couldn't find anything suitable.

powered Firewire 800 port for a digital back.(not 4pin unpowered)
run another hd monitor and hold a calibrated profile for main screen and external screen without software/hardware workarounds.
metal construction but still slim/lightweight.
long battery life.
option of a matte screen.

couldn't find anything that was suitable.
i was thinking about running final cut too so it had to be a macbookpro, plus the capture software is better supported on the mac and the dual monitor calibration issues would have been an annoyance.

i don't care what anyone else buys. it's a tool for a job.
(the fact it looks nice and is easy to use is a bonus.)

Had an original iMac, last of the G5's just before they went to intel chipsets. It NEVER recognized my iPod Photo, but my Windows NT laptop had no trouble! Apple discontinued support for that OSX and I couldn't run the Blackberry software as the G5 can't be updated - backwards compatible you say? Then it died. So I moved to W7 on a laptop and think it's great. I also have Ubuntu on an IBM T40 and love that too - Kids use Openoffice which is good enough for Sun. My view of Apple is somewhat tarnished to be honest...

Elfinsafety - Member
Please, please, please;

There's a pic of a lovely bottom up there (How did that happen???) ^

I know, took me ages to avert my gaze.

It was designed to calm everyone...

I know it's probbly sexist and degrading and that, but it is a [i]very[/i] nice bottom.

Just a reminder that there is a 'real' world out there too....

I tend to buy new ones tax-free at the airport

I do like the Ubuntu logo

I'm guessing all the Mac advocates must all be getting paid a lot more than me. If I add up all the time (not very much really) I spend making my Windows laptop work because it's not a Mac which just works, I'd have to be on a ridiculously high hourly rate for it to be worth working overtime and getting a Mac instead. I'm surprised to find I also have another unique point at this stage of the thread - on various forums I frequent, I see lots of posts moaning about sw not working on Macs or asking about how to make it work (I wonder how much time people waste trying to make PC software work on Macs), but I don't think I've ever seen a similar post about trying to get Mac sw to work on a PC.

As for Linux - I use it in work, and really quite like it. So much so that I have a Linux partition on my home laptop. Can't remember the last time I used the Linux partition (on which I can't run most of the sw I use on a daily basis).

What Ubuntu logo?

The one up there, silly! 😆

Nope, still can't see it.

😆

Macs (and indeed Apple products generally) have shiny cases and their own flavour of unix; for that you pay a 100% premium.

ftfy - your post going on about cheap laptops with windows on therefore must have substandard hardware (while inferring that macs don't cut costs and give you a really strong spec) is just myopic. macs and the majority of everything else has intel chips on, similar bus speeds and the same board controllers etc so the comparison of the vaio and the macbook is quite valid.

I have used windows and linux and mac OSX and guess what? none of them are perfect operating systems. do your homework, try all the operating systems out and make a sensible decision on what hardware you want to support the operating system that gives you the access to the applications that you will use.

elfinsafety has the right idea, this thread was boring without pictures, I'm going back to page 3

Can you help me find the Ubuntu logo?

I only speak from my own experience. Two time VAIO owner. One time MacBookPro owner.

I'm nowhere near an IT bod or computer tech whiz so all this defrag talk goes right over my head.

As a lay user - skilled in the use of software packages such as Excel and such but not in OS's - I had a nightmare with both VAIO's. I lost count of the times I did clean installs of Windows on my last VAIO and still the speakers would only work when they felt like it - amongst other annoyances.I just wanted a computer that did what it said on the tin and I can't say my experience with VAIO gave me that.

By comparison I've had no such issues with the MBP. When I close the screen, it goes to sleep. No tantrums like I used to frequently get with the VAIO. The VAIO would frequently refuse to go to sleep and just cook in that closed state until it reached near nuclear temperatures.

The MBP cost more than both the VAIO's put together but it always does what it says on the tin. And their customer service is awesome. I just had the top cover and screen replaced 11 months out of warranty for free. That's a £500 repair gratis.

My MBP is two years old but works like the day I bought it. By contrast after 6 months with each VAIO I was at the point of throwing it through a window.

On the point of getting a Mac 'just for using the web' for £300 why not look at just getting an iPad? Admittedly still over your £300 price point but not as much over as a MacBook.

Thanks for all the helpful contributions. I ended up spending a little more and getting a MacBook. It just under two years but the spec is decent enough. I was going to get an iPad but with our other laptop having 'issues' I felt better to have another laptop which can word process etc and there ain't much I can do on an iPad that I can't do on my iPhone.

I'm a long time windows user or sufferer & have a hp/compaq 2510p laptop for work and an acer something or other. I bought a macbook pro 6 mths ago and tbh I can see some benefits of the apple such as start up speed and screen, but the battery life is pretty crap and it's been back twice to get the cd drive replaced.

Overall i'm not converted. .

I use PCs because i'm...

a) computer literate
b) a cheapskate
c) a gamer
d) an anti-snob

I also like the fact that if I want to upgrade my processor, GPU or memory then I can.

Chicks dig Macs

[url= http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1131/5152710560_e65da179f1.jp g" target="_blank">http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1131/5152710560_e65da179f1.jp g"/> [/img][/url]
[url= http://www.flickr.com/photos/ijustine/5152710560/ ]Office by the beach[/url]

I think I'd rather have something entertaining, practical and fun than something that looks good on a beach towel.

Same with computers.

aracer - Member
[i]I tend to buy new ones tax-free at the airport[/i]

How does that save you money by the time you've paid taxes when you import it? Or are you funding your Mac habit by smuggling?

Nope, most UK airports (plus the Eurotunnel terminal) have a tax-free Dixons - although they seem to have rebranded as [url= http://www.dixonstravel.co.uk/ ]Dixons Travel[/url] now. It's not actually tax-free, just discounted so you're effectively getting close to the VAT-free price - so applies to internal and EU flights too.

Their website is being redone so you can reserve online, but I've always just called up a few days in advance, they reserve an item for you (anything Dixons stock, so no build-to-order Apple stuff), when you pass security you pick it up. If you're not away for too long they'll hold it for you and meet you once you arrive back to hand it over.

As an example, the mid-spec 15" MBP that is £1649 is £1433.91 this way. £30 over VAT-free, but still over £200 saving and below the education store price without pretending to be a student.

If you have to fly for work, do the odd trip through the tunnel to France or a weekend away in Europe it's a pretty handy way of getting a good discount off a new Mac.

For video the advantage is FCP, nothing else as good for windows without paying AVID prices

When I close the screen, it goes to sleep

*closes W7 laptop screen, it sleeps, open, it awakes*

Hey, whaddya know.

There are more crap instals of Windows out there on laptops, and there is more crap hardware. Sony are one of the worst offenders for bloated installs imo.

Apple of course don't have this problem.

My point is that just because one Windows laptop is crap doesn't mean they all will be. But of course, that's one mark against PCs really. There are dozens of manufacturers, hundreds of component manufacturers and thousands of software authors, and Windows has to keep track of them all.

This business model makes it rather difficult for the consumer at times, but it's also the very reason why PCs are so ubiquitous and cheap. In fact one could argue that it is responsible largely for the huge success and availability of personal computing in general. Until Apple re-invented itself as a niche upmarket product, Microsoft and the PCs had all but killed every one of their competitors.

molgrips... not every file system needs defragging...

If by "need defragging" you mean "suffers from fragmentation," I challenge you to name one that's in widespread modern usage.

FAT - ostensibly introduced fragmentation to the masses.
NTFS - initially claimed not to need defragging by MS when it was introduced, they later said 'oops' and backpedalled. Has real-time optimisation to keep fragmentation down but still gets fragmented.
HFS+ - like NTFS, attempts to keep fragmentation to a minimum on the fly but can still get fragmented.
ext2 - needs defragging.
ext3 - can't be defragged natively (well, without converting back to ext2) but still fragments over time.
ext4 - recognises issues with ext3, proposes to re-introduce defrag.

"Can't be defragged" isn't the same as "doesn't need defragging." However, if when you say "need" you're arguing that fragmentation isn't a massive performance issue on a modern machine except in certain very specific circumstances, be that on Windows, Linux or OSX, I'd agree with you. It's largely a non-issue.

If as I suspect it's merely a badly researched attempt at willy-waving that "the Mac doesn't need defragging and PCs do," modern Windows OSes run a weekly scheduled defrag task on a very low system priority in order to keep fragmentation to a minimum. Most people aren't even aware of this and it can of course be disabled. The Mac, however, doesn't do this; not because it's not required but because it's not possible.

To defrag a Mac requires third party tools (not free) and requires exclusive access to the volume whist it runs - so you can't use your computer. It's also inherently risky, something Microsoft managed to fix back in the 90's.

This is fun, anyone else want to make any wildly inaccurate claims to the supremacy of their platform or have I made my point? (-: Hey I know, shall we do viruses next?

Since when did I say I use a Mac? 😉

"Need" in this context is from a performance perspective, not a technical statement saying it cannot be defragged. So bringing fragmentation into the Mac Vs. PC arguement is pretty pointless, as it brings very little noticable benefits for the average Joe Bloggs desktop.

Now who's waving their little friend around by listing filesystems?

In your haste to go "ha!" in a triumphant manner, you've overlooked the fact that I was replying to Molgrips, not you.

it brings very little noticable benefits for the average Joe Bloggs desktop.

... which is exactly what I said. This is true of both Mac and PC, it's a non-issue as far as comparisons go. The only difference is, with NTFS you have the option to do so, should you desire. You don't "need" to on either platform.

Chicks dig Macs

Office by the beach

How it is this is work? I not understand. Can please explain to me this with pictures?

Thank you.

It's like this kind of 'work' elfin...

[img] [/img]

No, I still is not understand. Need see more please.

Cougar.... you quoted me....

In my haste to go "ha!" in a triumphant manner, I've overlooked the fact that I was replying to you, not Molgrips.

Mia Culpa, sorry about that.

8)

Actually - who in their right mind would take a laptop to a beach? It's going to get very full of sand very quickly.

Isn't it mea culpa rather than mia?

Yes, but extending this thread to latin pedantry is probably not going to help anyone 🙂

I'm still struggling with the MS Mouse not working on a Mac when I've been using one for years as I hate Apple mice..

Yes, but extending this thread to latin pedantry is probably not going to help anyone

It's about as useful as the platform pedantry on the rest of it 🙂

Isn't it mea culpa rather than mia?

Probably. In my defence, I've not been well so my bloody [b]Latin [/b]might be a bit rusty.

q-:

Hackintosh is the new Mac

I'm still struggling with the MS Mouse not working on a Mac when I've been using one for years as I hate Apple mice..

El cheapo 2 button USB mouse is the answer... I bought a Dell one off ebay for £3, plugged straight in and worked with my Mac no issues...